What if we just stayed on mostly a rebuild course?

[Body Checker]

Yeah I know everyone; armchair GM'ing and all that and speculation/conjecture. But let's say the Flames org decided to a few years back to show more patience and did things a little differently. Also this includes loudmouth Burke never arriving and Flames ownership not putting pressure on to compete right away. We would still have made some deals and free agent signings but here's some time machine moves that I think are realistic to have happened from 2014-15 season to now -

1. Elliott & Johnson are still a tandem here
2. Raymond placed on waivers; Byron still here
3. Russell re-signed; Hamilton/Hamonic trades don't happen; we draft Konecny (McKenzie had him #15 so went with that); we still have 2018 1st
4. Baertschi/Granlund trades don't happen; still draft Rasmus as had the 2nd rounders to do it
5. Stajan bought out instead of Bouma
6. We finish lower than Oilers in 15-16 (no Hamilton) and draft Puljujarvi instead of Tkachuk (not saying that's what I want but trying to be realistic).
7. Still trade for Stone and sign Frolik and Brouwer
8. Couple extra prospects in the pipeline from our 2015 2nds; maybe hit the jackpot
9. Different coach

Elliott Johnson

Giordano/Brodie
Russell/Stone
Kulak/ Andersson
Wotherspoon

Gaudreau/Monohan/Konecny
Baertschi/Bennett/Puljujarvi
Ferland/Backlund/Frolik
Byron/Jankowski/Bouma
Granlund/Brouwer

Click to read more...

 

[FLAMES666]

What if we got Matthews, what if we got mcdavid. what if what if what if

 

[InfinityIggy]

Looks like we would be a much worse team.

 

[herashak]

Too many ifs. Hamonic trade didn’t need to happen, same with the granlund/shinkurak swap, as well as the Byron waive. The Elliot trade was a flop but not a terrible risk to take.

Add in some garbage free agent signings (Raymond/Brouwer) and the rebuild is in a weird place.

It’s gonna come down to the prospects like parsons/ Gillies, dube/ Mangiapane, and fox/Andersson. To put this team into a better position.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

Looks like we would be a much worse team.

Yep. That team would absolutely be worse. There are three significant events that I think would make the Flames a better team (or have them in a better position) if they were reversed:

1. The Brouwer signing (sorry MM). He's been a liability on the ice for 80% of the games he's played, and even a decent 1 million dollar 4th line player would be an improvement.
2. The Hamonic trade. It was a gamble, and it looks like one that won't pay off. Additionally, not having Hamonic might give the Flames the flexibility to put Brodie back on the right side, if GG ever breaks himself out of his handedness box.
3. Drafting Bennett. Not to say that he's a bust, but had the Flames drafted Ehlers or Nylander instead, they'd currently be in a better position to compete.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

If we didn't make the moves we did, we'd be sharing toilet water with the Coyotes, perhaps making even the Yotes look good by comparison. We would suck out loud.

Buyer's remorse on drafting Bennett is exactly that - he was easily the most desirable player at the position they got him at even if he didn't do a pullup at the combine.

I'm also willing to give Hamonic and Brodie the benefit of time - both of them are going through off-ice family stuff that they have to adjust to.

 

[Volica]

If we didn't make the moves we did, we'd be sharing toilet water with the Coyotes, perhaps making even the Yotes look good by comparison. We would suck out loud.

Buyer's remorse on drafting Bennett is exactly that - he was easily the most desirable player at the position they got him at even if he didn't do a pullup at the combine.

I'm also willing to give Hamonic and Brodie the benefit of time - both of them are going through off-ice family stuff that they have to adjust to.

Kid's got 9 points in his last 12 games. I'm not willing to have buyer's remorse quite yet. To think of all the 10-bell chances he's had that he hasn't cashed in either, jury's still way out for this kid; I still think there's a good player to be had in him.

There has to be a tank vs compete mindset. We can't join the Edmonton/Browns loop, where it's still okay to be a shitty team for a decade (decade + for the Browns); because there's a place for sucking. Could you imagine we don't ride insane PDO to that playoffs with Hartley? Instead we miss out on Hamilton and instead go up to pick Eichel, McDavid or Marner (we'd be a worse team with Marner).

So many ifs and ands go into this that it's hard to play Captain Hindsight.

 

[Fig]

I don't think there's much change to be honest. The gains we make at the draft are probably lost if the team isn't forced to play a hard nosed high effort styled game that brought us to the playoffs. Under Hartley, we had many prospects blossom when given a chance.

I think even if we don't make the playoffs, we trade for Dougie. That position is rare and hard to fill. Even if we draft Werenski+2nd for him (without hindsight) it's worth it positionally, developmentally etc. That trade saves a 2nd rounder and to draft someone like Mackenzie, Blackwood, Sprong etc. But that player likely sits in the AHL like the others and doesn't affect the later season actions. The AHL was either cursed with injuries/issues at the wrong times or cursed by a super healthy NHL roster that didn't allow them the opportunity to play. But as of today, most don't look like they're NHL ready yet even on other clubs.

Byron is lost either way unless he's waived 48 hours earlier. We didn't need to waive him and waiving him brought our roster below max by 1. It was done for the 30 day flexibility. IIRC no one else was interested or didn't have enough room on the roster to acquire him. Montreal was one of the last in line and only was able to acquire him by voiding the Kassian contract. Buying out Stajan over Bouma is stupid. Bouma was bought out because of his ineffectiveness due to injury and excess bodies at forward. He also was perhaps an influence management wanted out if we are to take the superbowl scratching as evidence. Barts still wants out, Granny doesn't fit in our bottom 6, still need RHD, still have expansion draft, Hartley makes ploffs after not making it in '14 and Johnson + Elliott still cannot push us past the Ducks... list goes on.

The most serious butterfly effect I would hope is that the Wideman effect never happens. This alters some of our behaviours for sure. Imagine a Hartley balls to the wall trained core with offensive talent in a Tippett system this season. Boring, but I think we'd be near league tops with how badly teams have stumbled or been unlucky with injuries this season. We might not have Jagr this season though without Gully.

The butterfly effect of a slow and steady rebuild vs our ploff run likely means we look for a coach this off season rather than Jack Adams cursing Hartley with a year left and end up hiring Tippett due to his familiarity with Treliving and Maloney. However, I can't really see any of the trades, drafting or FA significantly altering our roster. Maybe minor things like if 3M isn't a thing, then we have a RW shuffle in the bottom 6 and Bennett + Mikes = a decent line. It may also mean Chiasson is retained rather than let go if we drafted someone not currently in our top 6.

We traded many players away/dropped them due to salary. (ie: Glenx, Russell, Hudler, Colborne, Jooris), dipped into FA because internal prospects weren't available to fill holes in the roster and market prices were too high for RW (ie: Frolik, Brouwer, Versteeg, Jagr). I don't think much of it changes. The end result would be the same with minor differences in detail. The biggest differences are reclamation projects associated with Gully: Bartkowski, Chiasson and Vey.

Biggest difference I could see might be:

JG - Mony - X (Pulujarvi/Ferland if we pretend that still happens)
Bennett- Backlund - Frolik (Bennett with a higher AAV)
Ferland? - Janko - Lazar?/Freddie?
Versteeg - Stajan - Brouwer

Gio - Hamilton
Brodie - Hamonic (Treliving said he spent over a year on that deal)
Kulak - Stone
TSpoon (No Bartkowski and young'uns would not be called up to eat popcorn, they'd develop in the AHL)

 

[Skobel24]

Yeah I know everyone; armchair GM'ing and all that and speculation/conjecture. But let's say the Flames org decided to a few years back to show more patience and did things a little differently. Also this includes loudmouth Burke never arriving and Flames ownership not putting pressure on to compete right away. We would still have made some deals and free agent signings but here's some time machine moves that I think are realistic to have happened from 2014-15 season to now -

1. Elliott & Johnson are still a tandem here
2. Raymond placed on waivers; Byron still here
3. Russell re-signed; Hamilton/Hamonic trades don't happen; we draft Konecny (McKenzie had him #15 so went with that); we still have 2018 1st
4. Baertschi/Granlund trades don't happen; still draft Rasmus as had the 2nd rounders to do it
5. Stajan bought out instead of Bouma
6. We finish lower than Oilers in 15-16 (no Hamilton) and draft Puljujarvi instead of Tkachuk (not saying that's what I want but trying to be realistic).
7. Still trade for Stone and sign Frolik and Brouwer
8. Couple extra prospects in the pipeline from our 2015 2nds; maybe hit the jackpot
9. Different coach

Elliott Johnson

Giordano/Brodie
Russell/Stone
Kulak/ Andersson
Wotherspoon

Gaudreau/Monohan/Konecny
Baertschi/Bennett/Puljujarvi
Ferland/Backlund/Frolik
Byron/Jankowski/Bouma
Granlund/Brouwer

Just a few notes:

1. I doubt Bennett would be at C, he wouldn't have likely developed any differently.

2. Baertschi wasn't gonna re-sign here. He wanted to go elsewhere.

3. Really doubt Stajan gets bought out over Bouma. Stajan plays a bigger role behind the scenes.

 

[JPeeper]

What if instead of drafting Granlund and Wotherspoon in the 2nd round in 2011, we drafted Kucherov instead and walked away from that draft with Gaudreau + Kucherov.


fuuuuuuuu (Kuch went right after Wotherspoon btw, fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu)

 

[Fig]

What if instead of drafting Granlund and Wotherspoon in the 2nd round in 2011, we drafted Kucherov instead and walked away from that draft with Gaudreau + Kucherov.


fuuuuuuuu (Kuch went right after Wotherspoon btw, fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu)

This is an odd one.

- Kucherov was one of two wild cards that Button was contemplating. The other obviously Gaudreau.
- After TSpoon was picked and Button sweated bullets to the 4th round, we had to wait to the 4th round to draft Gaudreau with our next pick.
- Why the heck would you draft like this? Why did Feaster not try and get a 3rd to draft JG earlier? Why was Kucherov even evaluated to go beyond the second round by Button?


That draft was ridiculously loaded even in the late rounds. We walked away with
- Barts
- Granlund
- Tspoon
- Gaudreau
- Brossoit (funny enough, Pribyl was taken 4 picks later)

 

[Skobel24]

Why did Feaster not try and get a 3rd to draft JG earlier?

How do you know he didn't try to get a deal done to get a 3rd?

Why was Kucherov even evaluated to go beyond the second round by Button?

If I recall correctly, Kucherov was expected to go in the 3rd/4th round. Looking at some mock drafts from that year, there are people that had him in the 5th/6th rounds.

Edit: Also finding ones that had him going late in the 1st. Opinions on him seemed to vary a lot.

 

[Calculon]

Russian factor had Kucherov dropping. But Button/Feaster forgot to account for GM's like Yzerman who don't care about that.

There's also a chance that if the Flames had taken Kucherov in the second, they wouldn't have felt comfortable with another gamble in Gaudreau.

Anyway, the only way the Flames could have prolonged the rebuild is if 2014-2015 never happened. That cinderalla year wildly raised expectations to the point of absurdity. Kind of like how the 2004 cinderalla run made people think the Flames were a bonafide contender when they were more of a bubble playoff team.

 

[Fig]

How do you know he didn't try to get a deal done to get a 3rd?



If I recall correctly, Kucherov was expected to go in the 3rd/4th round. Looking at some mock drafts from that year, there are people that had him in the 5th/6th rounds.

Edit: Also finding ones that had him going late in the 1st. Opinions on him seemed to vary a lot.

Ok, your point regarding Kucherov was fair. I didn't know Feaster said Kucherov OR Johnny only until after I read this article.

For JG and the picks though...

Q&A - TOD BUTTON

BUTTON: Oh, geez … when we took Johnny, for sure. If you remember, that year we didn't have a third-round pick. Jay (Feaster) had said we were going to take Johnny or the Tampa guy, (Nikita) Kucherov. Two guys, we'll take them where we see fit. So at 56, we take Tyler Wotherspoon, then Kucherov goes 57. And we're like: 'Oh, no. Now we've got to wait until 104 for Johnny!' We thought we had a good chance at still getting him but from 57 to 104 we sweated a little bit.

This quote seems to hint quite well there was no expectation of acquiring picks to acquire JG.

 

[Skobel24]

This quote seems to hint quite well there was no expectation of acquiring picks to acquire JG.

Hard to say. All this article really says is that Buttons initial reaction was "o shit".

Feaster had flaws, but I think if his scouting staff told him they weren't sure he'd make it to 104, he'd have at least attempted to do something.

 

[Fig]

Hard to say. All this article really says is that Buttons initial reaction was "o ****".

Feaster had flaws, but I think if his scouting staff told him they weren't sure he'd make it to 104, he'd have at least attempted to do something.

True, my comment is more opinion, but in a "what if we had hindsight" situation, if you swung and missed, you'd probably say nothing in the future. So I'm glad we have JG.

 

[Baxterman]

Other than some pathetic fans dislike of Burke for "reasons" I am not sure why he is mentioned in the OP.

I am also not sure why were are still signing Frolik and Brouwer but not trading for Dougie? Hamilton is in his early 20's that move fits with a rebuild, adding Frolik and especially Brouwer were done to help the team win.

I am not really sure a whole bunch would change really at least not in terms of the big picture.

Really the two biggest possible changes to this team in terms of rebuilding would have been not having that fluke season in 2014/15 and either having Bennett turn out or drafting someone who did.

It is kind of frustrating to think that we would likely still be a middling team no matter which way we went but in reality there isn't much chance we would be adding a ton of young talent if we had taken a more rebuilding route. We might have a few less bad contracts which is a help but that is about it. I think the holes (secondary scoring, defensive depth, goaltending ?) would still have been there/be here either way.

 

[Fig]

One theory I've been surmising is that the farm was a mess and not even remotely conducive to developing players prior to 2014. Consider that our AHL affiliate moved from Abbotsford, to Adirondack to Stockton in the last 4 years and a bigger mess was there prior to that. Our draftees were badly equipped to succeed. That's possibly why we flubbed so many late picks.

Consider also that Huska obtained his job as the HC because Ward refused to develop players in the way management wanted. He wanted to be a winning coach and nab an NHL gig and did so by benching kids to play vets. It also didn't help that the AHL affiliate played a different style than our NHL affiliate which meant there were serious issues in getting our prospects NHL ready.

I think Tre has acknowledged this and is working hard to fix this broken system. Utah Grizzlies and the LA Wranglers were the ECHL teams prior to Adirondack (Adirondack then to Kansas), and that was being fixed as well.

Consider this:
Source: Non-NHL hockey 2014-2015: All Welcome the Flint Tugboats - The Something Awful Forums

2013-2014
- ECHL = None
- AHL in Abbotsford, systems in minors totally different in NHL.
- AHL team in Abbotsford is idiotic because the next closest AHL teams are in Texas and Ontario. Brutal travel.

2015
- ECHL = None
- AHL = Adirondack Flames. It's WAY closer to the rest of the AHL than Abbotsford. Calgary to Adirondack is 11+ hours of travel.
- Systems in AHL is brought to somewhat match and develop players for NHL for first time.

2016
- ECHL = Adirondack Thunder. A few of the kids stuffed in other leagues not under team control if not in AHL now here. Can better monitor and put kids on track if needed than previously.
- However, Adirondack to Stockton is across the continent. Stockton to Adirondack is something like 10 hours by plane.
- AHL = Stockton Heat. Stockton aside, this relocation is ok as there are a few other AHL teams in California. Nice to have kids on similar time zone and no brutal travel schedule. Can better monitor and put kids on track if needed than previously.
- Calgary to Stockton is around 6 hours travel, but far easier to get there when doing a Cali road trip.
- Systems in AHL is brought to somewhat match and develop players for NHL. Management can more easily visit the farms during road trips

2017
- ECHL = Relocated from Adirondack Thunder to Kansas City Mavericks
- AHL = Stockton
- Stockton to Kansas = 5 hours. Half of what it used to be.
- Calgary to Kansas = 5.5 hours. Half of what it used to be.

The above was a crappy set up for the kids. But it also didn't help that bad luck transpired on the farm. There were just too many inopportune injuries or lack thereof for the kids to take advantage and get a cup of coffee.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

There's also a chance that if the Flames had taken Kucherov in the second, they wouldn't have felt comfortable with another gamble in Gaudreau.

This is a decent possibility. The fact that they were considered "wild cards" implies that neither player was seen as a high priority target, but one who's a gamble you hope will drop to a later round, I think. That said, it would have been dank if they'd taken both players.

 

[JPeeper]

What annoys me is that the Flames scouting clearly saw Kucherov as a special player (like Johnny), but put him as a wildcard instead of just on their draft board. At the end of the day, if Tampa doesn't draft Kucherov, Button might not tell Feaster to pull the trigger on Gaudreau.

But like, you saw these two special players and put them as wildcards, both superstars that were drafted in the later rounds, where is the other special players in the other 9 drafts of the last decade?

 

[Fig]

What annoys me is that the Flames scouting clearly saw Kucherov as a special player (like Johnny), but put him as a wildcard instead of just on their draft board. At the end of the day, if Tampa doesn't draft Kucherov, Button might not tell Feaster to pull the trigger on Gaudreau.

But like, you saw these two special players and put them as wildcards, both superstars that were drafted in the later rounds, where is the other special players in the other 9 drafts of the last decade?

They didn't put them on the draft board so that other teams wouldn't clue in that they liked them. Read about how they stealthily scouted Gaudreau. I think Kucherov was drafted higher than they expected. The stories show that they were pretty confident they'd get Johnny at 104, but sweated bullets up till he was Flames property. I'm more annoyed for no reason that a 3rd wasn't acquired or a 2nd traded down into two picks to draft both (we had two seconds that draft and drafted Granlund and TSpoon). But that's unrealistic hindsight talking.

 

[Body Checker]

Switching gears and looking ahead rather than behind would there be anything wrong with this team next year -

Smith/Rittich

Gio/Hamilton
Brodie/Hamonic
Kulak/Stone
Andersson

Gaudreau/Monohan/Ferland
Tkachuk/Backlund/Frolik
Bennett/Jankowski/Foo
Mangiapane/Lazar/Hathaway
Brouwer/Poirier

 

[Baxterman]

Anything wrong no, but it does look pretty mediocre.

I think it is pretty close to what we will get as we have spent so much in trade pieces lately that we can't afford another big deal but its hard to see that line-up winning the Cup or even getting past the 1st round.

 

[Fig]

Switching gears and looking ahead rather than behind would there be anything wrong with this team next year -

Smith/Rittich

Gio/Hamilton
Brodie/Hamonic
Kulak/Stone
Andersson

Gaudreau/Monohan/Ferland
Tkachuk/Backlund/Frolik
Bennett/Jankowski/Foo
Mangiapane/Lazar/Hathaway
Brouwer/Poirier

Poirier as the 14th guy doesn't make sense IMO. If management really needs a 1 year vet, just because they have a Fanner Ass and Ick Grossmann, I'd suggesting an offer Stajan Versteeg's contract ish (1.75 x 1 or less) to play middle 6 wing and be a good veteran. Our team lacks picks in the next draft so we need to dip into the FA pool. Stajan should be able to play LW/RW reasonably well and can play C if it gets that dire IMO he is an underrated swiss army tool type player like Frolik, but has never been asked to play that role consistently. (Obviously Frolik is better than Stajan)

Stajan has an underrated skill game, but we haven't seen it in a long time because he's been asked to play a checking/grinder role for quite the while now. He's been a fantastic consummate pro for a guy who went straight from our 1C to our 4C dragging a rotating cast of heavy weight around. Stajan was on Backlund's wing when Backlund went on that multi point tear last season. I had actually advocated for Stajan to be experimented on RW before Ferland stole that spot.

 

[Skobel24]

Switching gears and looking ahead rather than behind would there be anything wrong with this team next year -

Smith/Rittich

Gio/Hamilton
Brodie/Hamonic
Kulak/Stone
Andersson

Gaudreau/Monohan/Ferland
Tkachuk/Backlund/Frolik
Bennett/Jankowski/Foo
Mangiapane/Lazar/Hathaway
Brouwer/Poirier

Foo and Poirier should be nowhere near this roster. Both of them need more time, especially Poirier. After the issues he's had, the Flames need to be very patient with him. Keep them both in the AHL.