What Does a Full Rebuild Look like .....

[herzausstein]

I'm having trouble finding the "Blow It Up" threads on the Stars board. Most of their core is older than ours and as they're sitting at 14 points too, they're done.

They've also played 5 less games then us.... if they go on a 5 game losing streak then they'll have a record as bad as us. They also just came off losing to the Lightning in the Finals last season and a 2nd round loss the season before. So they've been trending in the right direction. It takes a couple seasons of diminishing returns and an abysmal start to really kick start the "blow it up" threads

 

[Viqsi]

Ha I already liked that idea, but spending any time on the Trade board thread is just going to get me banned. The headshakes and eyerolls I would deploy would be too much.

I don't know what orifice Friedman pulled that rumor of his out of, but I'll eat my keyboard if we trade any of our noteworthy players at all. It's just not Poile's style, and I don't believe it's going to be his preferred path.

The key is to never, ever attack people; only opinions and arguments. Flaming people is against the rules (and it should be). Ripping their arguments to shreds in front of their face (without directly accusing them specifically; indeed, showing some respect makes it even better) is perfectly fine, and yet has a similar visceral impact because people who Don't Bother To Do The Research also get irrationally attached to their shitty excuses for "arguments" and "reasoning" and so they take it personally. It's a bit more difficult to do (one has to know the subject well), but pulling it off is disgustingly satisfying.

 

[ILikeItILoveIt]

Beat the Wings and the Jackets twice each, get back over .500, get within 2 points of the 4th spot at the deadline, trade a #1 pick for a rental to put us over the top (as we've done so consistently during the Poile Era), and believe Granlund, Eck, and Forsberg when they tell Poile they have no interest in signing anywhere but here when their contracts are up so we don't move them at the deadline this year or next.

Oh, and David Farrance is a lock to sign with us after his college career is over in March. After all, why would a Pred 3rd round pick play thru his senior year at college and not jump right into our starting lineup in the NHL, versus waiting until the year ends and becoming a free agent.

Who's with me?????!!!!!!!????

Gotta keep a sense of humor these days.

 

[Byrddog]

I'd like to know who you are talking about, both the players and the poster that has given an evaluation.

If you're talking about Fabbro, I do like him, I think he's got a high skill level, he just has to work out the speed of the game, but that's understandable for a guy with 85 games of experience that had very little training camp, and is being coached by Hynes. If you're talking about Farrance, I'll have to pass that on to the guys that have seen him play. I have no idea why you're bringing up Dekyser.

The point about Dekyser is that he was praised and drooled over by alot of posters not just here on thePreds page as sure hit top 4 Dman. Just as Farrance is now. Fabbro is really the only untouchable in my my book for two reasons his potential and his age. He is the lone player except maybe Tominsino that could see this team back to competing in the playoffs.

The further point is why have most just accepted the talent of this roster offensively. There are those that would still want to promote Johansen as the gold mark. Heck even Forsberg is not to the gold standard while playing at point per game right now he has yet to meet that mark. All it takes is one win and people become giddy again and blind to the exposed gas tank on the 74 Pinto that this team is.

Just as I posted yesterday firing Hynes is only a small part of the solution. And honestly if Poile was planning on firing him it would have been done after the Detroit game. To fire him at this point means little except paying him this year and next while hiring another coach to pay while the team is hemorrhaging, while there is an article out there now that promoted the owners being unhappy with Hynes and Poile there has yet to be any action. And to the point that was rebuttal to my other post it makes no difference to these young kids who is behind the bench at this point. It is more meaningful of those players setting on the bench with them. There is not one current player except perhaps Pekka that could be looked at as a mentor. That includes my favorite Pred Josi who has failed in the leadership portion. There is not a Mike Fisher on this team and it shows. Track the team perfomance since Fishers last game. The stability is gone, heck the work ethic is closer to Johansen than Fish.

 

[Dadof5boys]

Wait, Ryan Ellis? Why would Poile have Ellis untouchable but not Forsberg? I call BS.

Gotta be BS. FF9 is our best player/asset.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

So...assuming we do clear out some of our roster and go for more of a rebuild, I think that drastically changes coaching targets (also assuming we do the sensible thing and can Hynes after the end of the season). Gallant, Sutter, etc... aren't really rebuild coaches. Aside from Taylor being an obvious option, especially having already worked with the org's youth, who would we want to look at here?

 

[Predsanddead24]

So...assuming we do clear out some of our roster and go for more of a rebuild, I think that drastically changes coaching targets (also assuming we do the sensible thing and can Hynes after the end of the season). Gallant, Sutter, etc... aren't really rebuild coaches. Aside from Taylor being an obvious option, especially having already worked with the org's youth, who would we want to look at here?

Taylor would far and away be my top choice. Jim Montgomery has the college experience so could be a good choice. Letting Gronborg get a shot to build a team from the ground up would be interesting too. Would definitely require a GM that is on the same page as him, which I'm not sure Poile would fit that bill.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

After the Lavy Storm, I want to try my best to not get too wrapped up in dissecting new coaching candidates. I think I can remember scouring sites and putting together lists and doing all kinds of dumb legwork in the FIRE LAVY! days. And never remotely considered that we'd take Hynes. So this time around, I'm not getting that invested.

Fire Hynes! Hire... somebody else. Anybody else.

 

[triggrman]

The point about Dekyser is that he was praised and drooled over by alot of posters not just here on thePreds page as sure hit top 4 Dman. Just as Farrance is now. Fabbro is really the only untouchable in my my book for two reasons his potential and his age. He is the lone player except maybe Tominsino that could see this team back to competing in the playoffs.

The further point is why have most just accepted the talent of this roster offensively. There are those that would still want to promote Johansen as the gold mark. Heck even Forsberg is not to the gold standard while playing at point per game right now he has yet to meet that mark. All it takes is one win and people become giddy again and blind to the exposed gas tank on the 74 Pinto that this team is.

Just as I posted yesterday firing Hynes is only a small part of the solution. And honestly if Poile was planning on firing him it would have been done after the Detroit game. To fire him at this point means little except paying him this year and next while hiring another coach to pay while the team is hemorrhaging, while there is an article out there now that promoted the owners being unhappy with Hynes and Poile there has yet to be any action. And to the point that was rebuttal to my other post it makes no difference to these young kids who is behind the bench at this point. It is more meaningful of those players setting on the bench with them. There is not one current player except perhaps Pekka that could be looked at as a mentor. That includes my favorite Pred Josi who has failed in the leadership portion. There is not a Mike Fisher on this team and it shows. Track the team perfomance since Fishers last game. The stability is gone, heck the work ethic is closer to Johansen than Fish.

Centers here are never going to put up the points they do in most clubs, most clubs do not run their entire offense from the backend, we do, which is also why we struggle to score. I posted that before Johansen or Duchene, and it's seems to be even more true under Hynes. Also, if you're not in the lockerroom or in the meetings you have no idea what Josi's leadership is, he sure looked like a leader last season, anything beyond that is speculation.

Here's were I am on our other offensive guys.

Lavy had a strict offensive system, it worked to score goals, and really helped our defensemen score, but is was strict, not much room for creativiy, very structured. This hurts guys like Granlund, but helps guys like Arvidsson. I've already addressed the centers. Everyone else in this type system will generally look the same. Forsberg, being the exception. Hynes system is not structured, but also doesn't create good transition, so it hurts guys like Arvy. Granlund looked great to start but now, looks like he's lost in the system. This also exlplains why Fiala went to the Wild and talked about how much more freedom he had offensively, and he blossomed a bit in that system.

So yeah, we could have players playing in systems that don't really put them in position to excel, or it could be the players just aren't that good. It's just odd to me, good players come here and fall off offensively. If all the players are falling all, it's likely not a player talent issue.

 

[glenngineer]

Blowing up a team to get picks and prospects is a risky proposition. Say you got 3 1st round picks in the next 2 years to go with your own 2, that's great if 3 or 4 of them pan out the way you hope. If only 2 pan out, why did you make the trades in the first place, to have a better chance of throwing something at the wall and hoping it sticks?

Here are a few examples of Poile's drafts.

2008 has two 1st's, 7 and 15. Picks Wilson and then trades down to land Pickard at 18. Could've had Karlsson at 15 if he stayed put. 2nd round though he picks up Josi. So how do you grade that draft? Good, bad, man that was really weird? Wilson and Josi were key components for the Cup run so I can't be too unhappy but why did Wilson never blossom here? He had the tools, just never developed.

2003 we have one 1st and a bunch of 2nd round picks. Everyone knows that draft class was stacked and most teams in the first round did really well for themselves. The Ducks landed Getzlaf and Perry. We landed Suter in the first round, Klein and Weber in the second round. Really solid draft. FYI, we picked Klein at 37 and Bergeron was taken at 45, 4 picks ahead of Weber.

Weber was moved for Subban who helped us to the Cup but we lost Suter for nothing and Klein got moved for Delsaster, I mean Del Zotto. So we basically landed two HOF defensemen and didn't win with them. Funny how that works.

Gonna go back to 1991 before Poile got let go in Washington. He had 2 1sts and 2 2nds that year. 14 and 21 in the 1st round and 25 and 36 in the 2nd. These were his picks. Pat Peake, Trevor Halverson, Eric Lavigne and Jeff Nelson. He didn't hit on any of these guys. A few of the guys drafted between 14 and 36 that Poile could've had, Alexei Kovalev, Markus Naslund, Glen Murray, Martin Rucinsky, Dean McAmmond, Ray Whitney, Ziggy Palffy and Sandis Ozonlish. Kovalev and Naslund were taken right behind Peake and Murray was two behind Naslund. While that was a deep draft, Lindros number 1, Forsberg number 6, a lot of teams missed up high and the lower 1sts and high 2nds really panned out. Every other team did very well except the Caps that year. Oh wait, he did land Steve Konowalchuk in the third round so there's that.

So while I'm all for moving players to get some youth and talent in the pipeline, I don't want Poile making the moves to get the picks and I especially don't want him making the picks. Yeah, he's drafted some really great players on the back end in his day but the unfortunate truth it hasn't brought him the Cup. He cannot build a roster up front to take his teams to the promised land. If he hasn't done it yet, what makes anyone think he's going to be able to do it now? Great guy. Builds a competitive team, just not a championship team.

 

[BigFatCat999]

I had to put it visually. The soon to be UFAs I would take 2021 picks or prospects. 2 yrs, PAY! Out the nose till you need to call Volde and he makes you pay too. Ekholm is expected back Saturday, Johansen very soon.

 

[NoNecksCurse]

Blowing up a team to get picks and prospects is a risky proposition. Say you got 3 1st round picks in the next 2 years to go with your own 2, that's great if 3 or 4 of them pan out the way you hope. If only 2 pan out, why did you make the trades in the first place, to have a better chance of throwing something at the wall and hoping it sticks?

Here are a few examples of Poile's drafts.

2008 has two 1st's, 7 and 15. Picks Wilson and then trades down to land Pickard at 18. Could've had Karlsson at 15 if he stayed put. 2nd round though he picks up Josi. So how do you grade that draft? Good, bad, man that was really weird? Wilson and Josi were key components for the Cup run so I can't be too unhappy but why did Wilson never blossom here? He had the tools, just never developed.

2003 we have one 1st and a bunch of 2nd round picks. Everyone knows that draft class was stacked and most teams in the first round did really well for themselves. The Ducks landed Getzlaf and Perry. We landed Suter in the first round, Klein and Weber in the second round. Really solid draft. FYI, we picked Klein at 37 and Bergeron was taken at 45, 4 picks ahead of Weber.

Weber was moved for Subban who helped us to the Cup but we lost Suter for nothing and Klein got moved for Delsaster, I mean Del Zotto. So we basically landed two HOF defensemen and didn't win with them. Funny how that works.

Gonna go back to 1991 before Poile got let go in Washington. He had 2 1sts and 2 2nds that year. 14 and 21 in the 1st round and 25 and 36 in the 2nd. These were his picks. Pat Peake, Trevor Halverson, Eric Lavigne and Jeff Nelson. He didn't hit on any of these guys. A few of the guys drafted between 14 and 36 that Poile could've had, Alexei Kovalev, Markus Naslund, Glen Murray, Martin Rucinsky, Dean McAmmond, Ray Whitney, Ziggy Palffy and Sandis Ozonlish. Kovalev and Naslund were taken right behind Peake and Murray was two behind Naslund. While that was a deep draft, Lindros number 1, Forsberg number 6, a lot of teams missed up high and the lower 1sts and high 2nds really panned out. Every other team did very well except the Caps that year. Oh wait, he did land Steve Konowalchuk in the third round so there's that.

So while I'm all for moving players to get some youth and talent in the pipeline, I don't want Poile making the moves to get the picks and I especially don't want him making the picks. Yeah, he's drafted some really great players on the back end in his day but the unfortunate truth it hasn't brought him the Cup. He cannot build a roster up front to take his teams to the promised land. If he hasn't done it yet, what makes anyone think he's going to be able to do it now? Great guy. Builds a competitive team, just not a championship team.

If people can’t see what you just laid out then they will never see it. we will never win a cup with poile unless we absolutely tank and he gets a no brainer #1 pick. Crosby McDavid type. It’s past time to clean house.

 

[Armourboy]

Blowing up a team to get picks and prospects is a risky proposition. Say you got 3 1st round picks in the next 2 years to go with your own 2, that's great if 3 or 4 of them pan out the way you hope. If only 2 pan out, why did you make the trades in the first place, to have a better chance of throwing something at the wall and hoping it sticks?

Here are a few examples of Poile's drafts.

2008 has two 1st's, 7 and 15. Picks Wilson and then trades down to land Pickard at 18. Could've had Karlsson at 15 if he stayed put. 2nd round though he picks up Josi. So how do you grade that draft? Good, bad, man that was really weird? Wilson and Josi were key components for the Cup run so I can't be too unhappy but why did Wilson never blossom here? He had the tools, just never developed.

2003 we have one 1st and a bunch of 2nd round picks. Everyone knows that draft class was stacked and most teams in the first round did really well for themselves. The Ducks landed Getzlaf and Perry. We landed Suter in the first round, Klein and Weber in the second round. Really solid draft. FYI, we picked Klein at 37 and Bergeron was taken at 45, 4 picks ahead of Weber.

Weber was moved for Subban who helped us to the Cup but we lost Suter for nothing and Klein got moved for Delsaster, I mean Del Zotto. So we basically landed two HOF defensemen and didn't win with them. Funny how that works.

Gonna go back to 1991 before Poile got let go in Washington. He had 2 1sts and 2 2nds that year. 14 and 21 in the 1st round and 25 and 36 in the 2nd. These were his picks. Pat Peake, Trevor Halverson, Eric Lavigne and Jeff Nelson. He didn't hit on any of these guys. A few of the guys drafted between 14 and 36 that Poile could've had, Alexei Kovalev, Markus Naslund, Glen Murray, Martin Rucinsky, Dean McAmmond, Ray Whitney, Ziggy Palffy and Sandis Ozonlish. Kovalev and Naslund were taken right behind Peake and Murray was two behind Naslund. While that was a deep draft, Lindros number 1, Forsberg number 6, a lot of teams missed up high and the lower 1sts and high 2nds really panned out. Every other team did very well except the Caps that year. Oh wait, he did land Steve Konowalchuk in the third round so there's that.

So while I'm all for moving players to get some youth and talent in the pipeline, I don't want Poile making the moves to get the picks and I especially don't want him making the picks. Yeah, he's drafted some really great players on the back end in his day but the unfortunate truth it hasn't brought him the Cup. He cannot build a roster up front to take his teams to the promised land. If he hasn't done it yet, what makes anyone think he's going to be able to do it now? Great guy. Builds a competitive team, just not a championship team.

Well in Poile's defense on Wilson, we now know he had severe OCD and they tried to get him help very early on but he refused it. While that help may not have turned him into Kariya it certainly would have made his game better.

 

[Scoresberg]

Head about to explode looking at the offers for Forsberg on the main boards.

Thanks to whoever didn't mention his name as untouchable

 

[Forsbergforloop]

Well in Poile's defense on Wilson, we now know he had severe OCD and they tried to get him help very early on but he refused it. While that help may not have turned him into Kariya it certainly would have made his game better.

Also, in regard to Karlsson, they shouldn’t have been paying that much attention to what fans thought, but the expectation was offense first in that draft. The perception of picking ANOTHER defenseman in the first round would have been unbearable to a lot of fans at the time.

 

[herzausstein]

Head about to explode looking at the offers for Forsberg on the main boards.

Thanks to whoever didn't mention his name as untouchable

It's amazing that people think they can get a great young asset like Forsberg for nothing of consequence. Value wise I'd put him close to Mark Stone

Mark Stone (at time of trade from Ottawa)
366 games played
123 Goals - 0.336 goals/game
188 Assists - 0.514 assists/game
311 Points - 0.850 points/game

Filip Forsberg
475 games played
174 goals - 0.366 goals/game
194 assists - 0.408 assists/game
368 points - 0.774 points/game

production wise they're pretty close. Ottawa got Oscar Lindberg, Erik Brannstrom, and a 2nd. Brannstrom was a top end prospect. Mark Stone also was a UFA and had no guarantee of re-signing in Vegas. So I think a top end prospect is the starting point.

A couple sites had Brannstrom as Vegas' top prospect going into that season.

Ranking the Golden Knights’ top prospects

 

[triggrman]

Also, in regard to Karlsson, they shouldn’t have been paying that much attention to what fans thought, but the expectation was offense first in that draft. The perception of picking ANOTHER defenseman in the first round would have been unbearable to a lot of fans at the time.

Poile has never cared what the fans wanted in the draft, he has told us time and time again he drafts the best player available regardless of position.

 

[Legionnaire11]

Poile has never cared what the fans wanted in the draft, he has told us time and time again he drafts the best player available regardless of position.

Yeah, at the time we needed centers and Wilson was projected to be a big two-way center who could skate and score with a possible 1C upside (not elite though), but even if he didn't hit his ceiling, he was considered a safe pick. He was exactly the type of player that Poile loves, but obviously was held back by personal issues that almost nobody else knew about. If he had taken the help that was offered, who knows how his Preds tenure and NHL career would have gone.

The next year we grabbed Craig Smith who was supposed to become a middle-six center. It might not have been a widespread belief, but there was certainly some level of expectation that these two could be the Preds top two centers of the future. Then of course the ended up as wingers and the rest is history, had they panned out in the middle, who knows what the last decade would have looked like here.

 

[GoldOnGold]

Rumor: Maple Leafs and Predators Discussing Blockbuster Deal - NHL Rumors - NHLTradeRumors.Me

Rumor about Forsberg for Nylander + Dermott + prospect

Seems like BS - Nylander and Forsberg are pretty comparable IMO

 

[GoldOnGold]

31 Thoughts Today:

"Pekka Rinne with excellent advice on the trade rumours surrounding Nashville: “It’s my strong recommendation all of us players not look into that too deeply.” "

"The Predators’ deep respect for Rinne, in his 17th year with the organization, means they want him to retire in their uniform. Nashville also has no desire to move Norris Trophy winner Roman Josi (who has a no-move clause) and fellow blueliner Ruan Ellis. Other than that, they’re going to listen, although certain players (Dante Fabbro, Filip Forsberg) will be difficult to pry loose. Nashville likes its defensive prospects, including Boston University’s David Farrance — who has 14 points in six games for the Terriers."

31 Thoughts: When will the 2021 NHL Entry Draft take place?

 

[NoNecksCurse]

Rumor: Maple Leafs and Predators Discussing Blockbuster Deal - NHL Rumors - NHLTradeRumors.Me

Rumor about Forsberg for Nylander + Dermott + prospect

Seems like BS - Nylander and Forsberg are pretty comparable IMO

Complete BS

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Rumor: Maple Leafs and Predators Discussing Blockbuster Deal - NHL Rumors - NHLTradeRumors.Me

Rumor about Forsberg for Nylander + Dermott + prospect

Seems like BS - Nylander and Forsberg are pretty comparable IMO

I don't personally think that Nylander and Forsberg are at all comparable. Nylander would be Granlund here. Forsberg is a MUCH stronger player IMO. But if we get Nylander, Dermott (mediocre young D, inferior to Fabbro) and a really good prospect, and THEN re-sign Forsberg after next season... eh?

 

[Legionnaire11]

I would never put any stock into rumors involving the Leafs or Habs. Every hockey writer knows to always include one or both of those teams into rumors on big names to generate clicks.

 

[desmondtootoo]

You need to get 2 very solid pieces for Forsberg, if not 3.
The whole concept of a trade for him is a cup contender that thinks they’ll win it with him, and is giving up a significant piece of their future to win now.
Something like Nylander, a first, and somebody not far off Nylander.
If you get anything that could turn to garbage, well, you might be Poile.
What you get for a Forsberg, is supposed to make us better next year, with no confusion or dumbassery involved.

 

[desmondtootoo]

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