What are flyers really lacking?

Discussion in 'Philadelphia Flyers' started by MacDonald4MVP, Jan 8, 2019.

?

Select 5 most important ones.

  1. Top6 sniper/goal scorer/shoot first player

    47.1%
  2. NHL level coaching

    75.0%
  3. Top4 RHD

    23.1%
  4. Top4 shut down D

    19.2%
  5. Out with bad vets

    46.2%
  6. NHL level Starter

    41.3%
  7. NHL level backup

    7.7%
  8. 2C

    20.2%
  9. 3C

    9.6%
  10. Snot and balls/juevos/grit

    15.4%
  11. Bigger role for young players as opposed to established guys

    30.8%
  12. More speed

    46.2%
  13. Clear direction/vision for the team

    26.0%
  14. Q behind the bench

    12.5%
  15. 1C

    3.8%
  16. 1D

    14.4%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. bennysflyers16

    bennysflyers16 Registered User

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    Trouba will be 1 year till he's a UFA when Jets trade him, his return to Jets is only going down. They missed the boat on trading him
     
  2. Rebels57

    Rebels57 Registered User

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    Who cares? We suck.

    I'm all for trying Myers and a new coaching staff and seeing if that turns this D corps into a good one, but at some point we have to stop being afraid to trade "key young assets."
     
  3. Striiker

    Striiker Best Behaved Poster - 2018

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    They're called "key young assets" for a reason. They're exactly who we should value more than anything.

    It's not as if this roster is hopeless, it's just completely lacking any form of coaching and needs a mental reset. We saw what it could do last year when they carried a horrific coach to the playoffs... it's too early to give up on it before we see a real coach behind the bench.
     
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  4. Ruck Over

    Ruck Over Registered User Sponsor

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    NHL level coaching (synonymous with Q behind bench) - this team has lacked competent coaching since Lavy was fired. And at the end of Lavy's tenure, he was no longer credible because he refused to change his system insisting on square pegs into round holes. Berube, Hakstol, and Gordon are bottom feeder coaches, as is Lappy. Gord Murphy was a whole lot of nothing, the goalie coach isn't working any miracles, Knob is a question mark that leaves much wanting. Without proper instruction, how can we expect the players to perform in a consistent and repeatable basis? Especially against teams with good coaching, it is important to fight fire with fire, or more apt, know how to zig, when others are zagging.

    NHL level starter - again, Flyers haven't had this since Mason's penultimate season. Not chasing games, not having to outscore your own goalies mistakes, those are important obvious factors to continued winning. If the Flyers had a modest NHL starter, the back-up could fit in. Hakstol ruined whichever goalie he got by workload amounts, lack of rest. That's a stain on the current Elliott/Neuvy combo because neither can stay healthy now, regardless- NHL teams should have NHL level goaltending to be taken seriously.

    2C- Arbitrary player, roster inclusion. I prefer G at the wing, although he is still a damn good center. If G is returning to center, this issue becomes moot, as G and Coots are a good 1, 2. However, the center depth does leave some wanting, and why not aim higher than the proverbial 3c? For how many years has it been said getting a solid 3c should be an easy thing to do as bottom 6 NHLers are a dime-a-dozen, yet the lack is still there. Nolan Patrick, do better, be better, please, we all want it for you, earn your large 2nd contract and **** whomever on stacks of money that you can casually light on fire for a post-coital smoke. This could've been a Top4 defenseman, pick a flavor, but I still have a lot of faith in our home grown guys + Gudas. Would like to see them before going out and getting someone new, irrational I know (why not same rationale for the forwards- because). Dmen are expensive, so expensive.
    Generally, the talent levels are ok, it's utilization that's most often not addressed. And if not utilization, philosophy of composition, which leads into the next selection.

    Bigger role for young players as opposed to established guys (synonymous with Out with bad vets) - Gosh, fi there is ever a fault with watching this team for a pure entertainment aspect, it's this. Watching bad hockey from guys I know have little to no future. Dale Weise, AMac, Jori, Umberger, VdV, pick a Russian KHLer, Read, Manning, I forget anyone? All of those dudes, just unnecessary. Everyone knows they are bad, no need to recapitulate the reasons why. At times there was not credible youth behind those guys, but now there is, so they should not see the ice. They make watching the team unbearable. Most are gone, but not soon enough. A notch above is Weal & Simmonds. Spinning wheels just so Comcast can suck me dry watching drek.
    The Flyers need to play these younger players, from the Phantoms, sooner rather than later to at a minimum make room on the Phantoms for guys in juniors, college, overseas, etc. Yeah the mystery box is great, it could even be a boat. But you gotta open the damn thing to find out what is inside! The Flyers are treating their prospects like Schrodenger's cat, and it is ****ing annoying.


    Clear direction/vision for the team - And this falls on ownership/Pres/GM. Hextall was a mess because his vision did not match up with reality. Roster construction of the Flyers suffered for the benefit of an unknown tomorrow, while trying to emulate that of successful past teams (all that talk of heavy this, work hard that - screams LAK whom are the suck now, and Boston whom are not the most relevant recent Cup winner). The hot mic situation with the broadcast team, and the subsequent post game by the studio talking heads hinted at problems with chemistry. And it's not as if there is a Karlsson v. Hoffman toxicity going on (that we know of, are hinted at), but this team is not working. From starting games late, not competing for a full 60 minutes, no/little pushback in the face adversity, it's gone on too long. With clear no idenity, is this team a 200' team (Coots & Provorov), a finesse team (Voracek & Ghost), a bully team (Simmonds & Gudas), a speed team (TK & Sanheim), a starfish team (Weise & AMac)? It helps that Giroux can play each of these roles to aplomb, but that only hides the warts that this team is so thin, because it has no idea what it's doing. A great coach could instruct, and make instinctual, each of these types of game modes (less starfish) to the players on the ice to perform to their best capabilities. A good coach would implement a system that maximizes the collective talent of all the players. But our coaching hasn't been that great/good. Our GM hasn't been that focused. And our players are lost in what the hell they are supposed to be doing (defensive, 200 ft, offensive - where do we lay the hammer down?). Time to throw dirt on the previous coach- he instructed players to play like cowards. And that stink of being "responsible and defense conscious" neutered all the fun (except Gudas hip-checks) from this team unless it was an attack on the rush before structure could be restored to game play.
    Nice thing to say- I've found it very impressive that the Flyers have an identity of being a great FO team. Laughton has greatly improved, as has NP and Weal. Coots was always above average, but now very good, and G went from very good to great. Impressive. Sanheim is probably a sneaky good FO guy too, because everyone in a winged P is this year.

    @ me.
     
  5. Stizzle

    Stizzle Registered User

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    [​IMG]
     
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  6. WeHaveBeenFletched

    WeHaveBeenFletched I believe. Who’s with me.

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    1. A whole new coaching staff

    2. Fire Lappy, Knob and Gordon to Siberia

    3 call up Misha and Myers

    4. Wave Weise and AMAC

    5. Make a trade or 2 to spark life into a this lifeless group

    6. Give me something, anything to enjoy watching this hockey team so I don’t have the feeling of wanting to carve my eyeballs out.
     
  7. deadhead

    deadhead Registered User

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    Everyone wants to rush the kids up from LHV, but from what I've seen of the Phantoms, no one (other than Rubtsov before he got hurt) is dominating the AHL this year. A lot of solid prospects making progress, but that's not the same as domination nation. Even Myers doesn't jump out at you the way he should. NAK in his third season should be scoring like Varone, etc. etc. And it isn't like Varone has been able to translate AHL success to the NHL (though I like his game better than Weal).

    And if Huffman can apply real structure, more the reason to keep the kids down there for a couple more months.

    It's not that I love watching Weise mangle a pass, but this year is lost, so make moves in their own good time.
     
  8. Amorgus

    Amorgus Registered User

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    184971226.jpg
     
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  9. Rebels57

    Rebels57 Registered User

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    None of our key young assets are completely untouchable in my eyes except for Hart.

    I'd trade literally anyone else in the right deal.

    The only problem is that many of them have potential that outweighs their current trade value, so that then makes it very unlikely we could make a trade that would make sense.
     
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  10. deadhead

    deadhead Registered User

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    What I don't want is an overpay for a "name," especially a one dimensional scorer who gets overpaid relative to his value in terms of building a championship team. Like EK (especially with his ankle).

    And I'd rather trade Ghost than say Sanheim or Myers, because I think this team is 2-3 years away (didn't expect a tank, but did expect a transition year this season), and don't want to be moving under 25 top talent that will be peaking when this team is arriving.

    But Seguin, Stone, etc., if we pick up a bunch of draft picks in TDL trades, you can package a 1st (not our 1st), 2nd, and 2nd tier prospect (Ratcliffe, Laczysnki, Allison, etc) in the right deal, spend money on the right FA, etc. Players who can be cornerstone guys for 5-6 years. To go with the young players we have and Frost, Farabee, etc.
     
  11. Striiker

    Striiker Best Behaved Poster - 2018

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    Well sure, but I guess nobody in the league is completely untouchable if you get the right deal. The whole problem, like you said, is that you're not realistically going to get offered the "right deal" that makes moving them worth it. Their potential outweighs their trade value.

    For example, a guy like Frost... he's not the most valuable asset (player/pick/prospect) in the entire league, but it's not like we're going to get offered a proven high potential young player for him. The same reason we would accept that is why the other team wouldn't do the deal. That's why prospects so rarely get traded unless they have problems.

    So really I don't think we're disagreeing, so much as just saying the deal that we would accept for them isn't going to realistically happen.
     
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  12. Ruck Over

    Ruck Over Registered User Sponsor

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    This is not true. Unfortunately many contrarians and apologist will state the Flyers taking the Pens to 6 games, or the Caps to 6 as well. The Flyers have not won a playoff round however, which is what you were most likely referring to. "DOOP" sucks, but it sucks less than the futility that is the Flyers, or the contrarians.

    #ObviousHeelTurn
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  13. Clayonator

    Clayonator Registered User

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    Likely the wrong thread so mods feel free to move post to proper one. Anyway, Sens fan coming in peace, enquiring what your perceived value for Mark Stone would be. Supposedly you guys have kicked tires on him and although it is Eklund saying it, he’s less frequently as off base when it comes to Flyers intel. Reportedly Anderson could be involved too as an insulator for Hart. Assuming Stone would agree to a sign and trade what would you offer? I have some names in mind but I’d like to hear from your guys’ end first.
     
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  14. Ruck Over

    Ruck Over Registered User Sponsor

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    Heya,

    So this is a bit tricky, because it always changes with the other team's needs etc.

    The first offer would be Simmer+, with the idea that you would flip Simmer to a third party for the value that most makes you happy.

    The second offer would be Voracek, +/-, with the idea that Sens get a signed replacement player for Stone so the talent level doesn't just crater on your team. If you guys like Stone, but don't think he'll resign, change some deck chairs (not that Stone and Voracek are similar in game play or style necessarily, but both being of similar age and contract demands, top 6 production, and the Flyers could retain on Voracek at some level if necessary pending Stone's $#.)

    The third offer would be proverbial quantity for quality, where the Sens get the quantity. Our first this year is off the table until at least the lottery selection. Other draft picks, sure, we can talk. Of our prospects/youngins not currently on the Flyers, Frost, Farabee, Myers are the likely "untouchables". Lots of other players vary between reasonable top6/top4 projections, to NHL ready bottom 6/bottom 2. And we have a smattering of players at every position.

    But truthfully, as a Sen coming in peace, what would you want for Stone? There's interest, as many here feel the Flyers can bounce from bottom 5-NHL to reasonably being a top 14 team next year (that means not needing the last, or penultimate, game/week of the regular season to qualify for the playoffs.) Now, all we need is a little energon, and a lot of luck.

    About Anderson, that ship may have sailed pending on the price. There was major interest from a few of us based on a fire sale price from Ottawa and a chance to save this season. The season is lost, he's injured which gives us the shakes because Elliott/Neuvy (Lindros, Primeau, Pronger - concussions are the devil!). But one year left at a reasonable dollar amount, maybe he'd sign a 1yr or 2yr contract afterward, that'd be mad decent if he still has it'ish.
     
  15. Curufinwe

    Curufinwe Registered User

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    Voracek for Stone (who would have to sign an extension right away) comes up a lot.
     
  16. deadhead

    deadhead Registered User

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    However, if Stone is traded it'll be as a rental, then we'll talk to him after the season, it wouldn't make sense for us to give up major assets for a player who can't help this season (because we're out of the playoff hunt) and would cost money we could use to sign a FA without giving up assets. Playoff teams will be willing to pay more for a rental who would help them win now.
     
  17. Clayonator

    Clayonator Registered User

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    Interesting. Vorachek did occur to me. The names that jumped out to me as principle focal points go as follows: A signed Stone + Anderson + pick for Konecny + Sanheim + pick, OR - Patrick + Haag + pick.

    Could be way off based on how you guys value said players so I accept full criticism of allocable.
     
  18. deadhead

    deadhead Registered User

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    Doubt the Flyers would consider that kind of value, even if Stone is signed, that's $8-9M a year, you could wait until FA and try to sign him then, or Panarin, or a number of other FAs who'll hit the market at 26-27 years old this season. So why would we want to give up a serious package for half a season we don't need just to be able to sign Stone instead of another FA?

    And I like Stone.
    Last summer, those kind of deals might have made sense.
     
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  19. hayen

    hayen Registered User

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    Offense. A scorer. Someone others feed from. Hunger for points. Hopefully Hart becomes our steady man in goal, and break outs put the puck in capable threatening hands with scoring threats from the d men. We have pieces but need a couple real O performers. And chemistry to make it work. A lot to ask for
     
  20. Crescent Street

    Crescent Street Saturday Nite Hockey

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    Pretty much lacking just about everything.
     
  21. Garbage Goal

    Garbage Goal Registered User

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    Prospect development that isn’t ass backwards and moves faster than a slug, an entire coaching staff, a non-nepotistic hire at president, probably a winning culture at this point, and potentially a GM.

    That’s all.

    Sometime within the next handful of years, probably some roles that shouldn’t be expected to be filled by development. After guys like Simmonds are sold and guys like Giroux finally start to decline.
     
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  22. Garbage Goal

    Garbage Goal Registered User

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    Eklund is a fraud, it doesn’t matter the team. The myth that gets perpetuated about him being right about the Flyers is from calling a trade like once years ago.

    I love Stone, but given he’s not signed and his age plus talent level he should probably be on a team that’s contending right now. So, not us. I’d definitely take him over any of our current wingers (I still consider G a center really) if he was signed though.
     
  23. Laveuglette

    Laveuglette Le meilleur receveur de passes de tous les temps

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    Eklund wasn't the first to report the trade, he just spread it. I can't recall him being right on anything that wasn't already reported somewhere else, or very vague.
     
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  24. Tripod

    Tripod Registered User

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    Not going to happen. The Flyers are just not going to trade good young, cost controlled players, for an expensive one that they can bid on for free in the summer.

    Or at least they certainly shouldn't....lol.
     
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  25. Crescent Street

    Crescent Street Saturday Nite Hockey

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    Is anyone else a little worried that all of these picks Hextall made in his time here are all cut from that same kind of cloth that Hakstol and Hex are from? The safe, non-emotional, straight and narrow types with zero flare?
     

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