WHA ramping things up - No Salary Cap

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CantHaveTkachev

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Nov 30, 2004
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BlackRedGold said:
Well how else are they supposed to get talent? If you can't get talent, you can't win under ANY system and in the NHL the best way to get talent is through the draft. That's how all the really good teams do it.

Agreed. how mant times do we have to say the Oiler drafting sucks?


BlackRedGold said:
And you call me delusional? You were poised to be a powerhouse despite not having any of the best players in the league. And your best player just had his career year. And you expected to become a powerhouse?
Weight , Smyth, Guerin, Niniimaa, Brewer, Smith....9 game winning streak, 10 game un-beaten streak...maybe not powerhouse but definitly great....


BlackRedGold said:
Why couldn't the Oilers have drafted or developed a player to step in for Weight? They had ten years to do it. And its not like Weight was getting any better. St Louis wishes they could unload him now.
if St.Louis wants to unload Weight,I'd take him back...he loved it here and had his best years here


BlackRedGold said:
It's been rehashed here hundreds of times. If you're not too stupid or too lazy to look it up, please do so.
 

Ziggy Stardust

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BlackRedGold said:
OK. You want more examples? Fine.

Why doesn't Joe Thornton make more then Holik? Or Marian Hossa? Or Brad Richards? Or Milan Hejduk? Or Zdeno Chara? Or any countless number of NHL players who are better then Holik?



I've got a great idea for a business plan based on your logic.

I'll come up with some product, it doesn't really matter what, but it'll cost about a $1 to make and I'll put up a 100 of that product on eBay. I'll pay some friend to buy the first one at $1000. That'll set the market rate for the product and I'll make $100,000 dollar less the $1000 it cost my friend to buy the product and the $100 it cost to make the product. I'll be rich!



The only one that appears to be the fool in this thread is the Edmonton school system.

Have you earned a college degree or some form of education beyond high school? Your "widgets" analogy does not apply to the free agent market system in the National Hockey League. Ever heard of the term collusion? I don't even want you to explain to me how your analogy would work... I have read enough of your posts to get an understanding of your logic, and that is something I do not wish to debate with you, but feel free to further explain if you feel the need to and continue making yourself appear foolish.

Second, all of your examples hardly support your illogical claims. Those players have not reached their UFA age, and thus far their teams were not obligated to lock them up to long term contracts that would force them forego their UFA status when they reach that age. Those are players who cannot afford to hold out and have not had the longetivity of a Holik thus far in their young playing careers. They have still signed for a significant amount of money, and will continue to make more and more as they progress in their years of service in the NHL.

And I don't consider Joe Thornton's contract to be a paltry sum, and UFA spendings have affected the salaries of other free agents (see John LeClair and Keith Tkachuk as examples).

In arbitration hearings, players/agents cannot cite other UFA signings as sources of examples. Observe cases in which players were to become unrestricted, or were unrestricted free agents, and what they signed for. Are you saying the Rangers did not help inflate that market? If you continue to believe so then I am not going to change your mind. That is your perogative, and if you wish to blindly support such foolish claims, more power to you. But if you are going to make such claims, have the information available to support your foolishness.
 

Phanuthier*

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BlackRedGold said:
The only one that appears to be the fool in this thread is the Edmonton school system.
FYI Alberta Learning is rated the top education system in Canada and one of the best in the World. :teach:

There's definatly a fool in this thread, but (for once) I don't think its e-townchamps.
 

chriss_co

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Mar 6, 2004
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I'll second that (above)...

i cant believe someone is still trying to argue against the Edmonton case as a small market being unfairly punished by the old CBA
 

se7en*

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BlackRedGold said:
Well how else are they supposed to get talent? If you can't get talent, you can't win under ANY system and in the NHL the best way to get talent is through the draft. That's how all the really good teams do it.

How else? Trades, signings, I'm sure I'm missing one, but you're saying the only way to get talent is through the draft? Did the Oilers draft Weight? Guerin? Joeseph? Niinimaa? Hamrlik? Marchant? Grier? But obviously the only way to get talent is to suck and have a top draft pick right?

And you call me delusional? You were poised to be a powerhouse despite not having any of the best players in the league. And your best player just had his career year. And you expected to become a powerhouse?

They had a first line of Smyth-Weight-Guerin, arguably one of the best (if not the best) 1st line in the league at that time. You're saying they sucked? Curtis Joseph is a crap goaltender too right? And Hamrlik, Niinimaa, and Mironov, they suck too. And each season they consistently improved until they were on the verge of becoming great until the market decided Weight was worth $9,000,000. Only a handful of teams can afford that, and guess what? Ottawa ain't one of them either. Oh wait, I'll bet youre ready to retort with some useless irrevalent remark like 'How are they doing now?' I suppose the only way to become a powerhouse is by having the best players in the world occupying all 20 spots? Get a grip on reality.

Why couldn't the Oilers have drafted or developed a player to step in for Weight? They had ten years to do it. And its not like Weight was getting any better. St Louis wishes they could unload him now.

Oh, I spoke too soon. When he left Edmonton he was a 90-point player. Thats what matters - how he does with St. Louis is, yep, irrevalent. At least Lowe is rebuilding the mess Sather made, another point you're ignoring.

If you're not too stupid or too lazy to look it up, please do so.

I'm not going to sink to your level, and you always try to goad others with petty little personal attacks.
 

se7en*

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BlackRedGold said:
Melnyk is a liar who will say what serves his purposes best.

Before he bought the team he claimed he was willing to spend big to get the Sens. When this drove out the other potential owners, he played hardball with the bankruptcy courts saying he would only buy the team under his conditions.

Before he bought the teams the Sens would have relocated or folded. I thought you might be a bit more appreciative that Melnyk saved your franchise from becoming the Baton Rouge Gators or some such. Lemme guess, Melnyk is a liar when it becomes inconvenient to you right?

The SEC is investigating him because they don't believe him. Horse racing fans in the Barbados think he's a cheat who dopes his horses.

If I wanted to read tabloid material, I'd buy the Weekly World News, thank you very much.

Do I think they didn't win the Cup because the CBA was unfair? No.

They didn't win because they didn't get the breaks. Not because the CBA wouldn't let them get the talent to win the Cup
.

They didn't win the Cup because they got slapped around by the Leafs every year. It wasn't because of the CBA that Ottawa could build a team, it was because you guys were the leagues doormat for the better part of a decade. Sucking for the better part of the decade so you can accumulate high picks isn't the only way to build a contender.
 

YellHockey*

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Ziggy Stardust said:
Have you earned a college degree or some form of education beyond high school?

Yes, I have. How about you? What is your educational background?

Your "widgets" analogy does not apply to the free agent market system in the National Hockey League.

Sure it does. Both are free markets. The market for my "widgets" and for NHL UFA's.


Second, all of your examples hardly support your illogical claims. Those players have not reached their UFA age, and thus far their teams were not obligated to lock them up to long term contracts that would force them forego their UFA status when they reach that age. Those are players who cannot afford to hold out and have not had the longetivity of a Holik thus far in their young playing careers. They have still signed for a significant amount of money, and will continue to make more and more as they progress in their years of service in the NHL.

So what you're saying is that Holik's contract doesn't affect them.

Thank you for making my point for me.

And I don't consider Joe Thornton's contract to be a paltry sum,

I never said it was. All I said was that Holik made more then him and was an inferior player.

and UFA spendings have affected the salaries of other free agents (see John LeClair and Keith Tkachuk as examples).

No they haven't. If you want proof for that look to Jody Reed in baseball.

He was offered a three year contract for more then $7M dollars by the Dodgers when he became an unrestricted free agent. Then another second baseman by the name of Robby Thompson signed a much larger contract and Reed thought what you thought. That another UFA set the market for second basemen so he rejected the Dodgers offer.

Instead of offering him more money based on the Thompson signing, the Dodgers traded for another second baseman. Reed was then forced to accept a one year contract for less then a million dollars. He never got another million dollar contract for the rest of his career.

Because he was stupid enough to believe that unrestricted free agents have a set market, it cost him millions of dollars.



In arbitration hearings, players/agents cannot cite other UFA signings as sources of examples. Observe cases in which players were to become unrestricted, or were unrestricted free agents, and what they signed for. Are you saying the Rangers did not help inflate that market?

What are you babbling about here? You're not making a whole lot of sense. First you correctly point out that UFA's can't be used in arbitrarion. Then you're claiming the Rangers inflated some market.

What market did the Rangers inflate? The only affect the Rangers have ever had was the stupid Joe Sakic signing which they learned there lesson from and never attempted again.

What specific players have the Rangers signed that inflated any arbitration eligible players' salaries?
 

YellHockey*

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e-townchamps said:
Agreed. how mant times do we have to say the Oiler drafting sucks?

And how do you expect to win if your drafting sucks?


Weight , Smyth, Guerin, Niniimaa, Brewer, Smith....9 game winning streak, 10 game un-beaten streak...maybe not powerhouse but definitly great....

Not bad. A bunch of above average players there but there aren't any real stars. No one who would crack the list of the 20 best players in the game.


if St.Louis wants to unload Weight,I'd take him back...he loved it here and had his best years here

Had being the critical word. The Oilers dealt him at the best time. When his best years were behind him.
 

YellHockey*

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Hootchie Cootchie said:
How else? Trades, signings, I'm sure I'm missing one, but you're saying the only way to get talent is through the draft? Did the Oilers draft Weight? Guerin? Joeseph? Niinimaa? Hamrlik? Marchant? Grier? But obviously the only way to get talent is to suck and have a top draft pick right?

best != only

They had a first line of Smyth-Weight-Guerin, arguably one of the best (if not the best) 1st line in the league at that time. You're saying they sucked?

That's pretty funny.

They weren't even the best line in their division at the time. Colorado had TWO lines that were much better then that line.

They were good but they were far from the best line in 2000. Or any other year for that matter.

Curtis Joseph is a crap goaltender too right? And Hamrlik, Niinimaa, and Mironov, they suck too.

They're all above average players, except for maybe Mirinov. But they aren't stars.

And each season they consistently improved until they were on the verge of becoming great until the market decided Weight was worth $9,000,000. [/quote]

Players who are approaching UFA aren't on the verge of becoming great. They were either great already or they never will be.

I suppose the only way to become a powerhouse is by having the best players in the world occupying all 20 spots? Get a grip on reality.

You at least need some of the best players in the world to become a powerhouse.


Oh, I spoke too soon. When he left Edmonton he was a 90-point player. Thats what matters - how he does with St. Louis is, yep, irrevalent. At least Lowe is rebuilding the mess Sather made, another point you're ignoring.

Why should it be irrelevant? You seem to think he'll be the player he was in Edmonton if he had stayed. But he hadn't and his play took a nosedive. There's no reason to think that his play wouldn't have taken a nosedive if he had stayed in Edmonton.

Lowe might be rebuilding the mess but he sure hasn't produced any results yet. Sutter rebuilt the Flames in less time then Lowe has had. How long do you give Lowe to prove he can rebuild the team? Or do you just believe that he can't because of the CBA?
 

YellHockey*

Guest
Hootchie Cootchie said:
Before he bought the teams the Sens would have relocated or folded. I thought you might be a bit more appreciative that Melnyk saved your franchise from becoming the Baton Rouge Gators or some such. Lemme guess, Melnyk is a liar when it becomes inconvenient to you right?

No they wouldn't have. There were a whole bunch of bidders lined up to buy the team until Melnyk stated there was no point in anyone else bidding because he wanted the team and it didn't matter what it cost.

And Melnyk is a liar when its convenient for him. At least that's what the SEC suspects.

If I wanted to read tabloid material, I'd buy the Weekly World News, thank you very much.

Or you could read the Globe & Mail or the National Post and find out the same information.


They didn't win the Cup because they got slapped around by the Leafs every year. It wasn't because of the CBA that Ottawa could build a team, it was because you guys were the leagues doormat for the better part of a decade. Sucking for the better part of the decade so you can accumulate high picks isn't the only way to build a contender.


Since when does four years make up the better part of a decade?
 

Chileiceman

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Dec 14, 2004
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BlackRedGold said:
Why should it be irrelevant? You seem to think he'll be the player he was in Edmonton if he had stayed. But he hadn't and his play took a nosedive. There's no reason to think that his play wouldn't have taken a nosedive if he had stayed in Edmonton.
Actually he probably would have better numbers in Edmonton since there is no Tkchuck or Demitra there and because of that he'd have a way bigger load and more ice time
 

Bring Back Bucky

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Chileiceman said:
Actually he probably would have better numbers in Edmonton since there is no Tkchuck or Demitra there and because of that he'd have a way bigger load and more ice time


True, but he's not going to understand. He'll start babbling about the Oilers drafting Steve Kelly in response. :dunno:
 

Bring Back Bucky

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mr gib said:
not any worse than what the nhl is gonna serve up in september


I'm pretty sure the NHL isn't going to send an unenmployable 70 year old around North America rambling about new teams that are going to start up any minute now, despite the absence of arena deals, equipment or players.
 

mr gib

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Bring Back Bucky said:
I'm pretty sure the NHL isn't going to send an unenmployable 70 year old around North America rambling about new teams that are going to start up any minute now, despite the absence of arena deals, equipment or players.
we'll see -
 

reckoning

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Jan 4, 2005
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Bring Back Bucky said:
I'm pretty sure the NHL isn't going to send an unenmployable 70 year old around North America rambling about new teams that are going to start up any minute now, despite the absence of arena deals, equipment or players.

No, the NHL will be hiring unemployable 70 year olds as replacement players.
 

Bring Back Bucky

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reckoning said:
No, the NHL will be hiring unemployable 70 year olds as replacement players.


If you understand basic economics, you will understand that the Mike Modanos of the world eventually realize that the cupboard is empty of dog food. And when the love of the giant poodle is at stake, NHLPA members will be lined up to make sure that unlike the fictitious league, no fat rambling seniors will be required.
 
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