WHA ramping things up - No Salary Cap

[CantHaveTkachev]

But the Oil DIDN'T need to sign anyone huh? Sorry. If you want a good team you either have to draft very well and be patient or trade well and pay the players what you need to pay them to keep them where they are at. The Flames lost a lot of good players as well, but the owners finally said, enough is enough and started to spend some money to try and build a winner. Sounds to me like the Oil owners just gave up on winning.

gave up on winning? how so? every year the team competes for a playoffs spot despite no true Superstar.
The owners have said the only way we survive under the current CBA is to ice a team at 30mil and hope things change in 2004
You got lucky to get to the finals or your owners would be complaing they lost even more tahn they already have

 

[OilKiller]

gave up on winning? how so? every year the team competes for a playoffs spot despite no true Superstar.
The owners have said the only way we survive under the current CBA is to ice a team at 30mil and hope things change in 2004
You got lucky to get to the finals or your owners would be complaing they lost even more tahn they already have

Well, this thread is not for this type of discussion, but no, I don't believe the Flames "got lucky". Sutter has built the team the right way and has aqquired the right players. Yes, Iggy is a superstar, but the "team" won, not just Iggy.

I just wish there would have been hockey this year so the Flames could prove it had nothing to do with luck.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Well, this thread is not for this type of discussion, but no, I don't believe the Flames "got lucky". Sutter has built the team the right way and has aqquired the right players. Yes, Iggy is a superstar, but the "team" won, not just Iggy.

I just wish there would have been hockey this year so the Flames could prove it had nothing to do with luck.

All I'm saying is that the gamble paid off for you guys.

If the owners didn't sign Iggy a few years back, it would've looked like the owners gave up on the team.

 

[Phanuthier*]

Who cares how much the Rangers spend on crappy players?

Everyone else should. It affects the market that all other teams have to sign their players by.

You don't understand that?

 

[se7en*]

The Oilers offered Weight $6,000,000 and still couldn't afford him so that argument is moot. We needed to sign him too. And let's be realistic - the Flames success last year was largely (hell lets not kid ourselves, it was) due to 2 players. Calgary's payroll was about $3 million higher so I guess that was the difference, but mostly luck. I suppose if the Oilers had made a miracle run we would be a model for building a successful team too.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

To summarize the foolish spending by the New York Rangers that set the standard for signing players....

The Rangers started it all with the $7M per year contract offer to Joe Sakic who was a restricted free agent at the time, forcing Colorado to match. They were "forced" to match. Here is a blurb from an article...

Rangers general manager Neil Smith said New York deliberately frontloaded its offer to Sakic with a $15 million signing bonus, hoping it would discourage Colorado from matching it. "We had the ability to pay a large signing bonus," he said. "We did it that way to get Joe, and because maybe it would not be matched." Smith said Colorado's decision to match sent an important message around the NHL. "You're not going to sign a Group II free agent off the Avalanche," he said. "They've stepped up and proven that."

The Rangers would then go on to sign Mike Keane (4yr,$8M), Brian Skrudland (3yr,$5.2M), Scott Fraser (3yr,$4M), John MacLean (3yr,$7.2M), Mike Richter re-signed for 4 years, $21.8M. They signed just about any free agent out there, even if they didn't need them; Brent Fedyk... Zarley Zalapski. Neil Smith sent Petr Popovic along with $2.1M in cash to get Kevin Hatcher from the Penguins (who was making $3.1M already).

They go on to sign Theo Fleury (3yr,$21M). They also go on to sign Stephane Quintal (4yr,$11.4M), Valeri Kamensky (4yr,$17M), Kirk McLean, Tim Taylor (4yr,$5.8M) and Sylvain Lefebrve (4yr,$10M) all to ridiculous contracts.

They decide to bring back Mark Messier (2yr,$11M). Sign Vladimir Malakhov (4yr,$14M). Think they learned their lesson after years of failures? Of course, they fire Neil Smith and bring in Glen Sather.
What does Sather go on to do? Sign Bobby Holik (5yr,$45M), Darius Kasparaitis (6yr,$25.5M) Greg de Vries (4yr,$13M).

All of these contracts priced out other teams and drove up the asking price for #3-4-5-6 dmen and checking line forwards.
I attribute this big financial mess the NHL is in in large part thanks to the New York Rangers. In 1999, the Rangers had 13 players in the top 100 list of highest paid players.

The reason a player like Aaron Miller is making over $3M is thanks to the New York Rangers. The Rangers set the "market value" for marginal players. In order for teams like the Flyers and Leafs and Wings to compete, they did the same. Dallas and Colorado got a taste of a Stanley Cup and did the same thing. When players see other skaters of their caliber earning big money in NY, they want a similar paycheck, thus pricing out some teams who can't afford to match some of their ridiculous demands. See Alexei Yashin and Michael Peca as examples of players holding out to get what they want.

The foolish spending of a select few teams has hurt the league and had an impact on every team in the National Hockey League. That is why a salary cap is needed, and the NHLPA has openly accepted that. Hopefully logic prevails and we will be prepping for the draft this June, eagerly await the free agent signing period to begin in July, have the 2005-2006 schedule released in August, and have players start preparing and arriving to training camps in September.

 

[Beauty eh?]

Damn, great post!

 

[Poignant Discussion*]

No, Ottawa couldn't compete with those teams, they needed:

a) to suck horrifically enough to zing off that many 1-3 picks in the entry draft. Shame on the Oilers for being competitive every year instead of reeling off 48 point seasons.
b) to get bailed out of bankruptcy in order to not bounce paycheques

Yes, heaven bless those players for wanting to play for the love of the game. May they all one day know what it's like to be able to have a hot meal with meat, vegetables and a healthy drink.

Spare the rhetoric??? Spare the foolishness.

Edmonton fans are so cute. It's like they think they have gods right to tell other teams how to conduct business. This from a team who has been pretty brutal for close 12 years.

Now you compare Edmonton to Ottawa

1. "to suck horrifically enough to zing off that many 1-3 picks in the entry draft. Shame on the Oilers for being competitive every year instead of reeling off 48 point seasons."

Ya its called expansion. Some teams were not allowed to bring players with them. And had to start on an even keel (unlike say Edmonton). Plus the Sens and the Bolts got screwed in thier expansion drafts compared to the others.

2. "to get bailed out of bankruptcy in order to not bounce paycheques"

Yes Edmonton doesn't do anything like that. They just beg other owners for money (Canadian equalization). And threaten if they don't get thier way 100% they are going to take thier sticks and go home!!!!

See ya

3. "Actually you know nothing of the Edmonton market. Yes they could "compete" using the trap like other teams have...however the fans in Edmonton wouldn't put up with it and the ownership would lose out with fans turning on the team. This is a City that had many cups and got hooked on offense first and still play that way."

I'm glad Edmonton fans would rather watch golf in April rather than hockey. Lets see would I rather watch New Jersey win cups or the Oilers take thier overrated "speed" game and maybe win one or 2 games against Dallas before going home?

Hate to break it to you guys but Edmonton is a fringe market and always will be one

 

[se7en*]

Yeah we know we're a fringe market. We got the point after Greztky was sold and should have known earlier when we were fresh out the WHA. We also know our team profited under the old system but would thrive with a better one - not only us, but the whole league. We also know fringe markets are sort of the majority of the NHL right now. And we might be a fringe market but we know whose opinion matters when the last players proposal was shot down.

One the many holes in that crock I have a problem with is that Edmonton started out on an even keel - anyone who knows the history of the WHA/NHL merger knows thats nonsense. Not to mention the equalization plan was a result of Gary Bettman, not our owners apparently begging to other owners (what owners did they beg to?).

We also know we don't have a talent-laden team that can play offense-first, but proud of the fact that we're still one of the leagues most entertaining teams. Is there anything wrong with that? I'm sure you'd rather look south and see New Jersey winning the Cup after your teams expected playoff exit as well.

It could be alot worse for Edmonton fans though. We could be Leafs fans.

 

[BLONG7]

To summarize the foolish spending by the New York Rangers that set the standard for signing players....

The Rangers started it all with the $7M per year contract offer to Joe Sakic who was a restricted free agent at the time, forcing Colorado to match. They were "forced" to match. Here is a blurb from an article...

Rangers general manager Neil Smith said New York deliberately frontloaded its offer to Sakic with a $15 million signing bonus, hoping it would discourage Colorado from matching it. "We had the ability to pay a large signing bonus," he said. "We did it that way to get Joe, and because maybe it would not be matched." Smith said Colorado's decision to match sent an important message around the NHL. "You're not going to sign a Group II free agent off the Avalanche," he said. "They've stepped up and proven that."

The Rangers would then go on to sign Mike Keane (4yr,$8M), Brian Skrudland (3yr,$5.2M), Scott Fraser (3yr,$4M), John MacLean (3yr,$7.2M), Mike Richter re-signed for 4 years, $21.8M. They signed just about any free agent out there, even if they didn't need them; Brent Fedyk... Zarley Zalapski. Neil Smith sent Petr Popovic along with $2.1M in cash to get Kevin Hatcher from the Penguins (who was making $3.1M already).

They go on to sign Theo Fleury (3yr,$21M). They also go on to sign Stephane Quintal (4yr,$11.4M), Valeri Kamensky (4yr,$17M), Kirk McLean, Tim Taylor (4yr,$5.8M) and Sylvain Lefebrve (4yr,$10M) all to ridiculous contracts.

They decide to bring back Mark Messier (2yr,$11M). Sign Vladimir Malakhov (4yr,$14M). Think they learned their lesson after years of failures? Of course, they fire Neil Smith and bring in Glen Sather.
What does Sather go on to do? Sign Bobby Holik (5yr,$45M), Darius Kasparaitis (6yr,$25.5M) Greg de Vries (4yr,$13M).

All of these contracts priced out other teams and drove up the asking price for #3-4-5-6 dmen and checking line forwards.
I attribute this big financial mess the NHL is in in large part thanks to the New York Rangers. In 1999, the Rangers had 13 players in the top 100 list of highest paid players.

The reason a player like Aaron Miller is making over $3M is thanks to the New York Rangers. The Rangers set the "market value" for marginal players. In order for teams like the Flyers and Leafs and Wings to compete, they did the same. Dallas and Colorado got a taste of a Stanley Cup and did the same thing. When players see other skaters of their caliber earning big money in NY, they want a similar paycheck, thus pricing out some teams who can't afford to match some of their ridiculous demands. See Alexei Yashin and Michael Peca as examples of players holding out to get what they want.

The foolish spending of a select few teams has hurt the league and had an impact on every team in the National Hockey League. That is why a salary cap is needed, and the NHLPA has openly accepted that. Hopefully logic prevails and we will be prepping for the draft this June, eagerly await the free agent signing period to begin in July, have the 2005-2006 schedule released in August, and have players start preparing and arriving to training camps in September.

WOW, great post...the Rag$ definitely got the ball rolling, and then came Det,Phi,Col,Tor....and there went the neighborhood...

 

[CGG]

I'm sorry, but is it not widespread knowledge (or speculation) that the Oilers made $3 million last season without making the playoffs? Why are they threatening to pack up and leave if they don't get an Edmonton-friendly CBA? And why is money the root of all their problems? Did money issues make them draft these guys:

4th- Jason Bonsignore (1994)
6th- Steve Kelly (1995)
6th - Boyd Devereaux (1996)
14th - Michel Reisen (1997)
13th - Michael Hendrick (1998)
13th - Jani Rita (1999)
17th - Alexei Mikhnov (2000)

That's 7 years in a row of awful 1st round picks.

 

[dakota]

I'm sorry, but is it not widespread knowledge (or speculation) that the Oilers made $3 million last season without making the playoffs? Why are they threatening to pack up and leave if they don't get an Edmonton-friendly CBA? And why is money the root of all their problems? Did money issues make them draft these guys:

4th- Jason Bonsignore (1994)
6th- Steve Kelly (1995)
6th - Boyd Devereaux (1996)
14th - Michel Reisen (1997)
13th - Michael Hendrick (1998)
13th - Jani Rita (1999)
17th - Alexei Mikhnov (2000)

That's 7 years in a row of awful 1st round picks.

is there a link that backs this up that Edmonton made 3$ million? If so was it because of the huge outdoor event that made a lot of money for them? The previous year figure would be good as a comparison too...

yes the Oilers did not draft well, but they still had to send away players in trades or lose them because they could not afford them... certainly Edmonton could do better and having a cap will only help them and every other team do better because it takes the pressure of $$$$ out of the equation... if every team has the same budget at least then those that are smart at drafting and trading will come out on top... who knows how edmonton would have done if they were able to keep their assets or better yet parlay them into more valuable assets.

 

[futurcorerock]

http://www.worldhockeyassociation.net/news/20050306000.php

Figures that the NHL is meeting this week. Is there any legality involved with playing in the WHA this may if the NHL and NHLPA do sign an agreement? I'd assume so based on the fact it's NHL product on enemy teams.

Crush the WHA!

 

[Mess]

I wonder how the WHA would have turned out after a rich NHL team made Gretzky an offer the WHA couldn't possible match.

That was not possible .. Gretzky wanted to join the NHL .. he was only 17 and the amateur draft at the time had the age limit at 19 to be drafted ..

The WHA had not such rule and as a rival league had 2 years to rob the best young talent for itself ..

So Gretzky signing with the NHL without ever getting drafted was not an option and he entered the NHL through WHA expansion and merger as an Oiler ..

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

I'm sorry, but is it not widespread knowledge (or speculation) that the Oilers made $3 million last season without making the playoffs? Why are they threatening to pack up and leave if they don't get an Edmonton-friendly CBA? And why is money the root of all their problems? Did money issues make them draft these guys:

4th- Jason Bonsignore (1994)
6th- Steve Kelly (1995)
6th - Boyd Devereaux (1996)
14th - Michel Reisen (1997)
13th - Michael Hendrick (1998)
13th - Jani Rita (1999)
17th - Alexei Mikhnov (2000)

That's 7 years in a row of awful 1st round picks.

I think we as Oiler fans have already stated that our drafting was poor (thanks Slats!) so let's not get on that

The 3 mil was made from the Heritage Classic outdoor game...how many will we have of those???My point is we are not able to keep our talent that we had!!!! (Weight, Guerin, Cujo)

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Edmonton fans are so cute. It's like they think they have gods right to tell other teams how to conduct business. This from a team who has been pretty brutal for close 12 years.

Now you compare Edmonton to Ottawa

1. "to suck horrifically enough to zing off that many 1-3 picks in the entry draft. Shame on the Oilers for being competitive every year instead of reeling off 48 point seasons."

Ya its called expansion. Some teams were not allowed to bring players with them. And had to start on an even keel (unlike say Edmonton). Plus the Sens and the Bolts got screwed in thier expansion drafts compared to the others.

2. "to get bailed out of bankruptcy in order to not bounce paycheques"

Yes Edmonton doesn't do anything like that. They just beg other owners for money (Canadian equalization). And threaten if they don't get thier way 100% they are going to take thier sticks and go home!!!!

See ya

3. "Actually you know nothing of the Edmonton market. Yes they could "compete" using the trap like other teams have...however the fans in Edmonton wouldn't put up with it and the ownership would lose out with fans turning on the team. This is a City that had many cups and got hooked on offense first and still play that way."

I'm glad Edmonton fans would rather watch golf in April rather than hockey. Lets see would I rather watch New Jersey win cups or the Oilers take thier overrated "speed" game and maybe win one or 2 games against Dallas before going home?

Hate to break it to you guys but Edmonton is a fringe market and always will be one

Brutal? you mean the Sens right? The Oilers don't have half the talent the Sens do yet compete for a playoff spot every year...and usually do just as well in the playoffs!

1.Fact is, having the 3rd worst reg. season record will get you good players...the Oilers have never drafted in the top 3...ever. Is that an excuse for not drafting well? hell no, we already said the Oilers were sucking in the drafting dept.

2.We get the Canadian Equalization because we are entitled to it...we sell enough seasons tickets. We don't "beg" other owners, it was in the last CBA. Do the Sens even have 13,000 seasons tickets? did you qualify for the same thing?

3.I'd rather watch fast entertaining hockey than the trap...why do you think most Amercains don't watch hockey? cause it's boring!

 

[Bring Back Bucky]

So the Oilers couldn't have used Martin Havlat, Mike Fisher, Daniel Alfredsson, Pavol Demitra, Anton Volchenkov, Karel Rachunek or Sami Salo? All those guys that the Oilers had the opportunity to draft but didn't. The Senators have been good at developing players even after they started making the playoffs.

Or how about drafting Steve Kelly over local boys Shane Doan and Jarome Iginla in 95?

Would they not have been able to compete if they had some of those players added to their team?



That was unrelated to team operations. The Senators payroll, until last season when "Come Clean" Eugene Melnyk took over, was never significantly higher then the Oilers.

As per expectation, you respond with no regard to the issue at hand. It's the usual sophomoric rant about the Oilers draft record, blah blah blah. I indicated that the cities you refer to are indeed having trouble being financially viable, and that is the issue at hand, not their success/lack thereof at the draft table. If you think that there are not problems for NHL owners trying to turn any sort of reasonable dollar, you've either been brainwashed by a union scientist or are in middle school.

 

[Bring Back Bucky]

Edmonton fans are so cute. It's like they think they have gods right to tell other teams how to conduct business. This from a team who has been pretty brutal for close 12 years.

Now you compare Edmonton to Ottawa

1. "to suck horrifically enough to zing off that many 1-3 picks in the entry draft. Shame on the Oilers for being competitive every year instead of reeling off 48 point seasons."

Ya its called expansion. Some teams were not allowed to bring players with them. And had to start on an even keel (unlike say Edmonton). Plus the Sens and the Bolts got screwed in thier expansion drafts compared to the others.

2. "to get bailed out of bankruptcy in order to not bounce paycheques"

Yes Edmonton doesn't do anything like that. They just beg other owners for money (Canadian equalization). And threaten if they don't get thier way 100% they are going to take thier sticks and go home!!!!

See ya

3. "Actually you know nothing of the Edmonton market. Yes they could "compete" using the trap like other teams have...however the fans in Edmonton wouldn't put up with it and the ownership would lose out with fans turning on the team. This is a City that had many cups and got hooked on offense first and still play that way."

I'm glad Edmonton fans would rather watch golf in April rather than hockey. Lets see would I rather watch New Jersey win cups or the Oilers take thier overrated "speed" game and maybe win one or 2 games against Dallas before going home?

Hate to break it to you guys but Edmonton is a fringe market and always will be one

Why is it that all twelve year olds turn a discussion of financial difficulties in several markets into a venomous attack on Oiler fans. How many cups have the leafs won in your lifetime, anyway??

 

[mackdogs*]

So the Oilers couldn't have used Martin Havlat, Mike Fisher, Daniel Alfredsson, Pavol Demitra, Anton Volchenkov, Karel Rachunek or Sami Salo? All those guys that the Oilers had the opportunity to draft but didn't. The Senators have been good at developing players even after they started making the playoffs.

Or how about drafting Steve Kelly over local boys Shane Doan and Jarome Iginla in 95?

Would they not have been able to compete if they had some of those players added to their team?

Oh the old hindsight is 20/20 aka. crystal ball theory of perfect drafting. How utterly ridiculous. I guess you should pursue this as a future as you must be perfect yourself. People who live in glass houses....

Until then keep up your job as a comedian. Your posts are really making me laugh.

 

[Bring Back Bucky]

Oh the old hindsight is 20/20 aka. crystal ball theory of perfect drafting. How utterly ridiculous. I guess you should pursue this as a future as you must be perfect yourself. People who live in glass houses....

Until then keep up your job as a comedian. Your posts are really making me laugh.

Yeah, it's pretty tough to criticize drafting seven years later with a copy of the NHL guide and record book in hand, isn't it??? Ah, well, we feed it by responding, so deep inside we must like third rate humor, eh??

 

[Phanuthier*]

Edmonton fans are so cute. It's like they think they have gods right to tell other teams how to conduct business. This from a team who has been pretty brutal for close 12 years.

Now you compare Edmonton to Ottawa

1. "to suck horrifically enough to zing off that many 1-3 picks in the entry draft. Shame on the Oilers for being competitive every year instead of reeling off 48 point seasons."

Ya its called expansion. Some teams were not allowed to bring players with them. And had to start on an even keel (unlike say Edmonton). Plus the Sens and the Bolts got screwed in thier expansion drafts compared to the others.

2. "to get bailed out of bankruptcy in order to not bounce paycheques"

Yes Edmonton doesn't do anything like that. They just beg other owners for money (Canadian equalization). And threaten if they don't get thier way 100% they are going to take thier sticks and go home!!!!

See ya

3. "Actually you know nothing of the Edmonton market. Yes they could "compete" using the trap like other teams have...however the fans in Edmonton wouldn't put up with it and the ownership would lose out with fans turning on the team. This is a City that had many cups and got hooked on offense first and still play that way."

I'm glad Edmonton fans would rather watch golf in April rather than hockey. Lets see would I rather watch New Jersey win cups or the Oilers take thier overrated "speed" game and maybe win one or 2 games against Dallas before going home?

Hate to break it to you guys but Edmonton is a fringe market and always will be one

*coughCenterOfTheUniversecough*

 

[Hasbro]

Zig also worth noting none of those Rag$ signings worked out. Keane was done more to spite the Avs for having the temerity to keep their superstar.

 

[YellHockey*]

As per expectation, you respond with no regard to the issue at hand. It's the usual sophomoric rant about the Oilers draft record, blah blah blah. I indicated that the cities you refer to are indeed having trouble being financially viable, and that is the issue at hand, not their success/lack thereof at the draft table. If you think that there are not problems for NHL owners trying to turn any sort of reasonable dollar, you've either been brainwashed by a union scientist or are in middle school.

The issue at hand was Edmonton's idiotic claim that they couldn't compete under the previous CBA. The draft record is critical to explaining Edmonton's woes. With a good team, Edmonton would clearly see its revenues rise significantly.

As for the financial woes of Ottawa and Buffalo, they were clearly not the result of operational difficulties.

The Oilers made money last season. How much should they have made on their investment? And how much of a capital gain should they make on it if they should sell it?

But you're clearly a very childish person who has difficulty keeping up with arguments.

 

[YellHockey*]

Oh the old hindsight is 20/20 aka. crystal ball theory of perfect drafting. How utterly ridiculous. I guess you should pursue this as a future as you must be perfect yourself. People who live in glass houses....

Name a team with a worse drafting record then Edmonton. The Oilers have consistantly had picks in the first half of the first round and made numerous bad picks.

I've never made a claim that I should be drafting. My claim is that if the Oilers are going to pay someone millions of dollars to do it, they should hire someone who can at least do a mediocre job at it.

 

[YellHockey*]

Why is it that all twelve year olds turn a discussion of financial difficulties in several markets into a venomous attack on Oiler fans.

Why is it that many Oiler fans act like twelve year olds to begin with?

"My team can't win! Waaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh!!!!"

"The CBA is unfair! Waaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh!!!"

"Bob Goodenow is a bad man! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh!!!"

"We can't keep our all players! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh!!"

I take that back. They don't act like twelve year olds at all. They're not that mature.