Blue Jays Discussion: The 3B hero the Blue Jays need: Drury hits walk-off HR! (oh and some kid played too)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Diamond Joe Quimby

A$AP Joffrey
Aug 14, 2010
13,547
2,996
Washington, DC
The trade wasn’t made for April 22, it was made on March 8th for the short term and long term.

Pillar, Grichuk, Teoscar, and McKinney were getting spots over him. With the pitching squeeze and needing 40 man roster it made sense to move DSJ (soon to be 27; same age as Hernandez and 2 years older than McKinney) especially when a team is offering you 500k in international cap space. Hopefully they can use that and use it on Yolbert Sanchez.

Alford well ahead of him. Argument can be made Pompey and Davis were higher on the depth chart too.

Smith was traded on March 8th.

Pompey injured on March 20th (subsequently moved to the 60 man IL) and Davis was injured on March 21st.

Maybe Smith stays if those guys don’t get injured. At the time the trade made sense and in the long term still should. Glad Smith is doing well and got playing time.

Also unfortunately Smith left the game yesterday with an injury.

Why was Smith traded March 8th if the 25-man and 40-man crunch do not require definitive decisions until, at earliest, March 24th?

This is a valid criticism, independent of the player evaluation side of the situation (i.e. position player produces above average wRC+ at each level, including the majors, and is let go for little by a team searching\accumulating talent).
 
  • Like
Reactions: HockeyThoughts

Diamond Joe Quimby

A$AP Joffrey
Aug 14, 2010
13,547
2,996
Washington, DC
The move was made to get $500K in IFA money, it wasn't made for "no reason whatsoever". Dwight Smith Jr. versus Brito or any other scrub makes no difference on this team.

Sure. And if said IFA money (which expires in this period, July 1st) results in a signing, then that is good. If it does not, then kanye shrug I suppose.

Regardless, it does not defend the timing of the transaction, which is open for criticism.
 

Discoverer

Registered User
Apr 11, 2012
10,820
5,995
Why was Smith traded March 8th if the 25-man and 40-man crunch do not require definitive decisions until, at earliest, March 24th?

This is a valid criticism, independent of the player evaluation side of the situation (i.e. position player produces above average wRC+ at each level, including the majors, and is let go for little by a team searching\accumulating talent).

I guess I'm a little confused about what you're saying here. They didn't just trade him out of the blue... the 40-man roster crunch did require a definitive decision on March 5th when Buchholz was signed. Someone had to be removed from the 40-man, and the result was that Dwigt got DFAd. He was traded a few days later because getting the IFA space is preferable to just letting him get claimed on waivers.

Aside from maybe holding off on making the Buchholz signing official or something, there was a roster crunch that necessitated a move.

If you think it should have been someone else getting DFAd instead, that would be a valid criticism.
 

BlueForever75

Registered User
Oct 4, 2017
5,691
2,303
I guess I'm a little confused about what you're saying here. They didn't just trade him out of the blue... the 40-man roster crunch did require a definitive decision on March 5th when Buchholz was signed. Someone had to be removed from the 40-man, and the result was that Dwigt got DFAd. He was traded a few days later because getting the IFA space is preferable to just letting him get claimed on waivers.

Aside from maybe holding off on making the Buchholz signing official or something, there was a roster crunch that necessitated a move.

If you think it should have been someone else getting DFAd instead, that would be a valid criticism.

I really do not understand what all the fuss is about Smith. He definitely wasn't in the plans and we had better OF options in Hernandez and McKinney at the MLB level. Yes he's off to a quick start but so were so many other prospects in the past, and they fizzled away.

Not worried at all about any of this. The international space received for him will better benefit the Jays with this front office then what Smith would provide long term
 
  • Like
Reactions: phillipmike

Diamond Joe Quimby

A$AP Joffrey
Aug 14, 2010
13,547
2,996
Washington, DC
I guess I'm a little confused about what you're saying here. They didn't just trade him out of the blue... the 40-man roster crunch did require a definitive decision on March 5th when Buchholz was signed. Someone had to be removed from the 40-man, and the result was that Dwigt got DFAd. He was traded a few days later because getting the IFA space is preferable to just letting him get claimed on waivers.

Aside from maybe holding off on making the Buchholz signing official or something, there was a roster crunch that necessitated a move.

If you think it should have been someone else getting DFAd instead, that would be a valid criticism.

Apologies, I should have made myself clear. There were other options to accommodate the Buchholz signing (i.e. placing Merryweather on the 60 day IL instead of optioning him to the minors and putting him on the 7 day IL). Me saying "there was no roster crunch" is misleading, and should be re-stated as "the roster crunch at the time could have been solved in a much more intelligent way".

Further, I don't want to make it sound like this is in anyway a catastrophic error. Simply stating that a team seemingly looking to find talent wherever possible giving away talent is poor asset management. That's all.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kurtz

phillipmike

Registered User
Oct 27, 2009
12,522
8,331
Why was Smith traded March 8th if the 25-man and 40-man crunch do not require definitive decisions until, at earliest, March 24th?

Who knows, opportunity cost? Closer you get to March 24th the less leverage you have. Maybe they made up their minds on Smith and took a good offer. Maybe the O's wanted to make a move on an OF before the end of the spring to get a better look at what they can bring. O's may have said this is our offer for him otherwise we are making a trade with another team.

Nothing is done in a vacuum and the roster crunch was not the only thing they looked at.

This is a valid criticism, independent of the player evaluation side of the situation (i.e. position player produces above average wRC+ at each level, including the majors, and is let go for little by a team searching\accumulating talent).

No it isnt because player evaluation should, is and was taken into account. They simply didnt trade Smith because of the crunch they traded him in addition to that and how they evaluated him as a player in relation to their other assets. Similar to exposing Bergen and Romano. Smith isnt a Jay simply because the Jays hands were forced, it was because management deemed that the advantages of trading him on March 8th outweighed the disadvantages of keeping him.

It isnt a valid critism if you take out a key element of making any/a trade which is player evaluation.
 

phillipmike

Registered User
Oct 27, 2009
12,522
8,331
Apologies, I should have made myself clear. There were other options to accommodate the Buchholz signing (i.e. placing Merryweather on the 60 day IL instead of optioning him to the minors and putting him on the 7 day IL). Me saying "there was no roster crunch" is misleading, and should be re-stated as "the roster crunch at the time could have been solved in a much more intelligent way".

Sounds like they think he didnt need the 60 day IL as he had his TJS on March 8, 2018. He should be back before then. I could be mistaken but although a small point and likely not a big factor but also a factor to consider is that the team wouldnt have to pay him a major league salary and his service time doesnt start if he is optioned to the minor league camp vs put on the 60 day IL.

10. A player who is placed on the MLB 60-day Injured List during Spring Training must spend at least the first 60 days of the MLB regular season on the Injured List (the player cannot be reinstated any earlier than the 61st day of the MLB regular season).

Maybe they know Merryweather wont need officially 60 days and will be back sooner because unless im mistaken he hasnt been added to the 60 day IL.

There were options to keep guys like Romano and Bergen on the roster too but management choose to expose them - same with Smith. They choose to let Smith go, that simple. So they didnt lose him because of the "crunch" or because they werent "intelligent" enough - they "lost" him because they wanted to move him.

Further, I don't want to make it sound like this is in anyway a catastrophic error. Simply stating that a team seemingly looking to find talent wherever possible giving away talent is poor asset management. That's all.

But they didnt give him away, they actually got good value. Now hopefully they can use it.
 
Last edited:

phillipmike

Registered User
Oct 27, 2009
12,522
8,331
Pillar returning to the Rogers Centre tonight as a member of the San Francisco Giants.

Also joining the list of former Jays are Eric Kratz, Yangervis Solarte and Travis Bergen. Pillar is doing better with the Giants as he is currently tied for 4th in batter fWAR on the Giants with 0.1, yes they have been that bad. Kratz and Solarte have been bad; a combined -0.3 WAR.

Bergen had a good start with 3 scoreless innings but recent gave up 4 ERs in his 2nd last appearance (gave up 2 HRs) and couldn't get a batter out in his last appearance. His ERA is up to 7.11 in mostly low leverage situations. K:BB and strike% looks good at 65%, he should stay with a bad Giants team all season unless he continues to pitch this bad.
 

Diamond Joe Quimby

A$AP Joffrey
Aug 14, 2010
13,547
2,996
Washington, DC
Who knows, opportunity cost? Closer you get to March 24th the less leverage you have. Maybe they made up their minds on Smith and took a good offer. Maybe the O's wanted to make a move on an OF before the end of the spring to get a better look at what they can bring. O's may have said this is our offer for him otherwise we are making a trade with another team.

Nothing is done in a vacuum and the roster crunch was not the only thing they looked at.

I think that's absolutely what happened.

No it isnt because player evaluation should, is and was taken into account. They simply didnt trade Smith because of the crunch they traded him in addition to that and how they evaluated him as a player in relation to their other assets. Similar to exposing Bergen and Romano. Smith isnt a Jay simply because the Jays hands were forced, it was because management deemed that the advantages of trading him on March 8th outweighed the disadvantages of keeping him.

It isnt a valid critism if you take out a key element of making any/a trade which is player evaluation.

What I was attempting to convey is that when one takes into consideration the player evaluation side in this case, it ultimately makes the decision worse. If I sell a stock today at $42.00, and its $47.00 next month, its a bad decision. If the underlying quantitative and qualitative data that existed at the time indicated that there was a likelihood said stock would increase, then it means I did a very bad job at evaluating said stock.

Dwight Smith producing 0.7 fWAR in his first 21 MLB games, which would make him the 3rd highest grossing Blue Jay to date this season, looks bad, small sample size or not.

Sounds like they think he didnt need the 60 day IL as he had his TJS on March 8, 2018. He should be back before then. I could be mistaken but although a small point and likely not a big factor but also a factor to consider is that the team wouldnt have to pay him a major league salary and his service time doesnt start if he is optioned to the minor league camp vs put on the 60 day IL.

If he pitches prior to May 27th, I'll be happy to re-visit this conversation and confirm I was incorrect.

Maybe they know Merryweather wont need officially 60 days and will be back sooner because unless im mistaken he hasnt been added to the 60 day IL.

There were options to keep guys like Romano and Bergen on the roster too but management choose to expose them - same with Smith. They choose to let Smith go, that simple. So they didnt lose him because of the "crunch" or because they werent "intelligent" enough - they "lost" him because they wanted to move him.

The difference being that those two players are not, and were not, ready for the majors. Which has been confirmed in the case of Romano, and yet to be determined in the case of Bergen. Further to the prior point, wanting to move him is not intelligent - which is ultimately my point.

But they didnt give him away, they actually got good value. Now hopefully they can use it.

Again, the pool funds expire July 1. The majority of worthwhile prospects have signed or committed.
 

phillipmike

Registered User
Oct 27, 2009
12,522
8,331
What I was attempting to convey is that when one takes into consideration the player evaluation side in this case, it ultimately makes the decision worse. If I sell a stock today at $42.00, and its $47.00 next month, its a bad decision. If the underlying quantitative and qualitative data that existed at the time indicated that there was a likelihood said stock would increase, then it means I did a very bad job at evaluating said stock.

Dwight Smith producing 0.7 fWAR in his first 21 MLB games, which would make him the 3rd highest grossing Blue Jay to date this season, looks bad, small sample size or not.

Maybe the front office determined that the "likelihood" of the stock increasing was slim to none hence why they made the trade.

But again you are forming your opinion leaving key elements out of the equation that need to be considered;

1. Sample size (huge huge huge factor here)
2. Sure you sold at $42 and now its at $47, but a stock can drop below that or go higher. There isnt always an upward trajectory, stocks can drop faster than they rise (i.e. injury)
3. Its a simplistic approach as there are many variables your comparison doesnt take into account - mainly other factors forcing you to move this stock (player) or another, limited spots etc.

There is too much time for Smith's value to drop or even raise. Its reckless to make this determination after 90 PAs, its like me saying i expect Galvis to keep up and be a 4-5 WAR player after 92 PAs.

The difference being that those two players are not, and were not, ready for the majors. Which has been confirmed in the case of Romano, and yet to be determined in the case of Bergen. Further to the prior point, wanting to move him is not intelligent - which is ultimately my point.

This is the fundamental disagreement. Other than saying you "liked" him you never once called out Jays for saying this is not an intelligent move at the time. You even said "very meh on his future outlook." Looks like a hindsight is 20/20.

Blue Jays Discussion: - So long Pillar, and thanks for all the catches

Give it time, if we are here in July and Smith is substantially better player than 3-4 of Grichuk, McKinney, Alford, Pompey and/or Hernandez and we did nothing with the IFA space then i will be glad to revisit this conversation and agree with you.

Again, the pool funds expire July 1. The majority of worthwhile prospects have signed or committed.

Again, still lots of time to use and even more to find out if they will amount to anything. We may not land a Yolbert Sanchez with the money but you can land lesser prospect who arent "worthwhile" but can still contribute down the line.

A lot has to be determined in this equation.
 
Last edited:

Diamond Joe Quimby

A$AP Joffrey
Aug 14, 2010
13,547
2,996
Washington, DC
Maybe the front office determined that the "likelihood" of the stock increasing was slim to none hence why they made the trade.

Which warrants criticism, and should cause some trepidation with their player evaluation.

1. Sample size (huge huge huge factor here)
2. Sure you sold at $42 and now its at $47, but a stock can drop below that or go higher. There isnt always an upward trajectory, stocks can drop faster than they rise (i.e. injury)
3. Its a simplistic approach as there are many variables your comparison doesnt take into account - mainly other factors forcing you to move this stock (player) or another, limited spots etc.

Absolutely. Yet, by holding, I would have had the opportunity to sell at $47.

I contend, as I've outlined, that these factors are overblown and indeed did not exist (i.e. "having to" move him specifically). I've already offered one alternative as an example.

There is too much time for Smith's value to drop or even raise. Its reckless to make this determination after 90 PAs, its like me saying i expect Galvis to keep up and be a 4-5 WAR player after 92 PAs.

We're ignoring the track record, here. Lot's of evidence existed (exists) that indicate Smith could indeed be a Denard Span-esque outfield (105-110 wRC+, average defense).

This is the fundamental disagreement. Other than saying you "liked" him you never once called out Jays for saying this is not an intelligent move at the time. Looks like a hindsight is 20/20.

Give it time, if we are here in July and Smith is substantially better player than 3-4 of Grichuk, McKinney, Alford, Pompey and/or Hernandez and we did nothing with the IFA space then i will be glad to revisit this conversation and agree with you.

Whoa, whoa. Simply because I took a measured approach in early March does not disallow me from criticizing the management group for a bad move. Its not my job to evaluate the prospects and players, its theirs. I have the luxury of being able to call a spade a spade. What my internal thoughts were on the matter on March 8th are irrelevant to the conversation.

Again, still lots of time to use and even more to find out if they will amount to anything. We may not land a Yolbert Sanchez with the money but you can land lesser prospect who arent "worthwhile" but can still contribute down the line.

A lot has to be determined in this equation.

More than willing to wait and re-evaluate in July.
 

phillipmike

Registered User
Oct 27, 2009
12,522
8,331
Which warrants criticism, and should cause some trepidation with their player evaluation.

So if he was bad does that mean management gets praise without knowing what they did with the IFA money?

Absolutely. Yet, by holding, I would have had the opportunity to sell at $47.

And if you held at $42 but the stock ended up at $36, you dont have the opportunity to sell at $42 anymore and maybe you have no buyers. They weighed all these factors.

I contend, as I've outlined, that these factors are overblown and indeed did not exist (i.e. "having to" move him specifically). I've already offered one alternative as an example.

One that cant be truly supported until we know Merryweather will be out of action until the end of May so your alternative may not be an alternative just more revisionist history.

We're ignoring the track record, here. Lot's of evidence existed (exists) that indicate Smith could indeed be a Denard Span-esque outfield (105-110 wRC+, average defense).

And even more evidence that he may not be an MLB player.

"I liked Dwight too, though I'm very meh on his future outlook. Best case scenario, he's a poor man's Denard Span."

Span put up 3 fWAR in his aged 24 season and 4 fWAR in his aged 25 season. Smith is turning 27 in October and is getting his first full season this year. He has a lot to do to stay an MLB player let alone becoming a 3-4 WAR player.

Whoa, whoa. Simply because I took a measured approach in early March does not disallow me from criticizing the management group for a bad move. Its not my job to evaluate the prospects and players, its theirs. I have the luxury of being able to call a spade a spade. What my internal thoughts were on the matter on March 8th are irrelevant to the conversation.

It doesnt disallow you from anything. Im just calling your criticism what it is today which is irrational to use a very small sample size. In the end we know what your true position is now and we can evaluate it when we have a big enough sample size to make a proper determination.
 

The Nemesis

Semper Tyrannus
Apr 11, 2005
88,306
31,681
Langley, BC
Well yes, exactly lol


tumblr_nh2gvib46e1splbmyo6_r1_250.gif
 

Discoverer

Registered User
Apr 11, 2012
10,820
5,995
We're ignoring the track record, here. Lot's of evidence existed (exists) that indicate Smith could indeed be a Denard Span-esque outfield (105-110 wRC+, average defense).

I'm completely aware that I'm just nitpicking here, but Span with average corner defense (which is what Smith offers) instead of average CF defense is... pretty meh. Not that I have any problem with that - finding cheap, league average-ish guys is a huge part of what the Jays are trying to do right now - but it's not quite the 3-4 WAR player Span was for a few years.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad