Well, now that the rebuild is over...

[jkutswings]

Helm shouldn't have gotten 5x3.85. I agree with you on that. But if he signed the Jarnkrok deal 6x2? I'd have literally no problems with it.

Then we can agree to disagree. If my only options were Darren Helm for $1, or roll the dice on <Random Prospect X> / <Random Free Agent Scrub Y>, I'd take the roll of the dice without hesitation. Helm provided a worthy skill set in the past, but I had zero interest in retaining him going forward, even for dirt cheap.

 

[HIFE]

...Most teams have more 'steals' and more deadweights. We are sort of in the middle of the road. As long as the players with less favourable contracts remain somewhere near the level they are at present, any of them can be got rid of without having to give up anything bar some retention.

Weighing the value of the majority of the Wings' contracts I'd say we're nearer to the bottom. Interesting the standings corroborate the fact of our inefficiency. Even with excellent goaltending last season Detroit was a painfully weak, unskilled and boring team to watch. Compared to the champions- the Caps- it's a world away from that level of shrewd, intelligent team-building.

Again in most cases our viewpoints revolve around personal opinion. Many are content to ride out these years of losing hockey with hope for the future. I'm still a little resentful at how we got here.

As jkuts was saying there is reason for Wings fans to be wary. Despite every excuse this is still a lousy team. Management has made poor choices again and again and again. Whether overrating players like DeKeyser, Helm, and Abdelkader, hiring declining plugs like Daley and the shell of Brad Richards, Vanek. For me as a fan it's been too many bizarre meaningless moves to trust fully that Holland has the intention or sharpness to bring us back to relevance.

 

[kliq]

Then we can agree to disagree. If my only options were Darren Helm for $1, or roll the dice on <Random Prospect X> / <Random Free Agent Scrub Y>, I'd take the roll of the dice without hesitation. Helm provided a worthy skill set in the past, but I had zero interest in retaining him going forward, even for dirt cheap.

If we could have Helm as a 4th line winger being paid Witowski/Ott/Miller money, I would do it in a heartbeat. What he's being paid in reality, for his current role, I agree he's not worth it. I think almost any NHL team would take Helm for dirt cheap as a 4th liner.

 

[lomekian]

Then we can agree to disagree. If my only options were Darren Helm for $1, or roll the dice on <Random Prospect X> / <Random Free Agent Scrub Y>, I'd take the roll of the dice without hesitation. Helm provided a worthy skill set in the past, but I had zero interest in retaining him going forward, even for dirt cheap.

Surely Helm on a peanuts contract becomes a great TDL asset?

 

[lomekian]

Weighing the value of the majority of the Wings' contracts I'd say we're nearer to the bottom. Interesting the standings corroborate the fact of our inefficiency. Even with excellent goaltending last season Detroit was a painfully weak, unskilled and boring team to watch. Compared to the champions- the Caps- it's a world away from that level of shrewd, intelligent team-building.

Again in most cases our viewpoints revolve around personal opinion. Many are content to ride out these years of losing hockey with hope for the future. I'm still a little resentful at how we got here.

As jkuts was saying there is reason for Wings fans to be wary. Despite every excuse this is still a lousy team. Management has made poor choices again and again and again. Whether overrating players like DeKeyser, Helm, and Abdelkader, hiring declining plugs like Daley and the shell of Brad Richards, Vanek. For me as a fan it's been too many bizarre meaningless moves to trust fully that Holland has the intention or sharpness to bring us back to relevance.

I mean we are right now middle of the road in terms of our bad contracts being still pretty useful NHL-ers (though we have too many, at least none are just AHL-ers now like a few other teams) and our good contracts being far from extraordinary value. With recent high draft picks we move closer to the more good value contracts and start to lose more of the not good value ones. If our ELC or RFA contracts were lottery superstars like a few other teams, our roster would look a lot better as the mediocrity we have would have smaller roles alongside better team-mates. We don't really have many poor players...we just have very few really good ones, so our roster is pretty flat...

 

[jkutswings]

Surely Helm on a peanuts contract becomes a great TDL asset?

Probably a 2nd or 3rd rounder. But I would've much rather had the 2nd rounder for dealing him on his last expiring contract.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Compared to the champions- the Caps- it's a world away from that level of shrewd, intelligent team-building.

Shrewd and intelligent are not ways I would describe the way that cup winner was built.

 

[HIFE]

Shrewd. and intelligent are not ways I would describe the way that cup winner was built.

Hmm. If you're saying there was a lot of luck/timing involved, I would agree. As with every SC winner their run turned into the perfect storm. But credit has to be given not just for their star players but the depth and rookies employed that performed beyond their expected level.

Comparing their roster a few players stand out: Orlov at $5 mil >>>>DeKeyser. That guy is one of the most underrated D in the league. Look at the value of a Lars Eller for 3.5. Burakovsky 3. DSM 1. Connoly looks kind of like an old man but he's only 26, making 1.5. When you throw in Wilson's previous contract and Vrana, who IMO has potential similar to Larkin, those are some really smart choices. Obviously they're nailed to the wall on guys who will soon all be into their 30's and should inevitably decline, but for the moment Washington is getting an excellent return at every level of pay.

I don't put all the blame on Holland for the state of the Wings. As as has pointed out so many times, drafting bottom 10 for decades straight is enough to erode a team to dust. Your superstars decline and can't be replaced by simply snapping fingers. I get that but in every case I want to see choices in personnel I can get behind, be excited for. It's like picking teams on the schoolyard and those last people left it's like, aww darn (sorry that's mean haha). If you've been saving up for a truck but then the right one isn't available you don't settle for a Subaru Baja- you wait it out. As far as Holland's UFA pick ups like Ott and Vanek that's just how I feel. At every stage of the rebuild to see decisions I can be supportive of.

 

[Henkka]

Comparing their roster a few players stand out: Orlov at $5 mil >>>>DeKeyser. That guy is one of the most underrated D in the league. Look at the value of a Lars Eller for 3.5. Burakovsky 3. DSM 1. Connoly looks kind of like an old man but he's only 26, making 1.5. When you throw in Wilson's previous contract and Vrana, who IMO has potential similar to Larkin, those are some really smart choices. Obviously they're nailed to the wall on guys who will soon all be into their 30's and should inevitably decline, but for the moment Washington is getting an excellent return at every level of pay.

How does that differ of Red Wings at 2008?

We had superb value contracts like Franzen 942k and Zetterberg 2.65M. Success creates raises and every contender will face it, and fall because of that.

 

[jkutswings]

How does that differ of Red Wings at 2008?

We had superb value contracts like Franzen 942k and Zetterberg 2.65M. Success creates raises and every contender will face it, and fall because of that.

People aren't criticizing the decisions made in 2008 or before. Nor are they complaining about deals like Zetterberg and Franzen and Kronwall, each of which are understandable leftovers from an era of success.

It's the bad moves made in the last 5 years, once many felt that the window of championship contention had already closed, that are frustrating.

Washington is fine where they are. But if they dwindle over the next 3-5 years to become a regular first round exit - and then continue to delay/avoid the need to rebuild - the two teams will be in the same boat.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Lars Eller Stats | Hockey-Reference.com
Darren Helm Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

The value of a Lars Eller at 3.5? Is that the same Lars Eller that's never cracked 40 points? The same Lars Eller who is basically Darren Helm with a different name if you look at his stats?

Too much is made of this. If the Wings had the same elite core that they had in 2008 (Dats, Z, etc.), their guys like Helm and Nyquist and Abby would be fine. They don't, so they're getting exposed as not being good enough hockey players to survive against the best of the best. It's the whole thing with Detroit. They've not been able to land a truly elite player in the 2010s and their bevy of okay to good players are suffering for it.

 

[jkutswings]

Lars Eller Stats | Hockey-Reference.com
Darren Helm Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

The value of a Lars Eller at 3.5? Is that the same Lars Eller that's never cracked 40 points? The same Lars Eller who is basically Darren Helm with a different name if you look at his stats?

Too much is made of this. If the Wings had the same elite core that they had in 2008 (Dats, Z, etc.), their guys like Helm and Nyquist and Abby would be fine. They don't, so they're getting exposed as not being good enough hockey players to survive against the best of the best. It's the whole thing with Detroit. They've not been able to land a truly elite player in the 2010s and their bevy of okay to good players are suffering for it.

An absence of elite talent has definitely played a big role, but it's not as if other mistakes haven't been made.

Darren Helm and Justin Abdelkader could have Connor McDavid centering their line, and the term on their contracts would still be a bad decision.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Helm and Gator got their contracts after Holland already knew Datsyuk was retiring and should have reasonably expected Z to retire within the next three years. Booo hooo those contracts only look bad because the Wings lack elite talent. (which isn't even true btw) So how about you don't hand those contracts out when you know you don't have any elite talent? IDK why you guys try so hard to justify horrendous contracts.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Hmm. If you're saying there was a lot of luck/timing involved, I would agree. As with every SC winner their run turned into the perfect storm. But credit has to be given not just for their star players but the depth and rookies employed that performed beyond their expected level.

Comparing their roster a few players stand out: Orlov at $5 mil >>>>DeKeyser. That guy is one of the most underrated D in the league. Look at the value of a Lars Eller for 3.5. Burakovsky 3. DSM 1. Connoly looks kind of like an old man but he's only 26, making 1.5. When you throw in Wilson's previous contract and Vrana, who IMO has potential similar to Larkin, those are some really smart choices. Obviously they're nailed to the wall on guys who will soon all be into their 30's and should inevitably decline, but for the moment Washington is getting an excellent return at every level of pay.

I don't put all the blame on Holland for the state of the Wings. As as has pointed out so many times, drafting bottom 10 for decades straight is enough to erode a team to dust. Your superstars decline and can't be replaced by simply snapping fingers. I get that but in every case I want to see choices in personnel I can get behind, be excited for. It's like picking teams on the schoolyard and those last people left it's like, aww darn (sorry that's mean haha). If you've been saving up for a truck but then the right one isn't available you don't settle for a Subaru Baja- you wait it out. As far as Holland's UFA pick ups like Ott and Vanek that's just how I feel. At every stage of the rebuild to see decisions I can be supportive of.

Mostly referring to

1. Bad management leading to top picks (Ovi/Backs)
2. Lots of years where they should have contended but failed year after year
3. Coaching carousel
4. Forsberg for Erat

And some other questionable moves. A cup win wipes away most failures but doesn’t make me forget that Caps were a mess of missed potential and somewhat unexpectedly suddenly went all the way.

 

[Winger98]

I think Washington finally winning shows the importance of having two great centers. They've never had a 1-2 punch down the middle like they had this past season, and I don't think it's a coincidence that this was the year they broke through. Their best second line center for this was Brooks Laiche or, arguably, a 38 year old Fedorov.

It's why we really need either Rasmussen/Veleno to show up as a top6 center with Larkin, or getting Hughes in this next draft.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Helm and Gator got their contracts after Holland already knew Datsyuk was retiring and should have reasonably expected Z to retire within the next three years. Booo hooo those contracts only look bad because the Wings lack elite talent. (which isn't even true btw) So how about you don't hand those contracts out when you know you don't have any elite talent? IDK why you guys try so hard to justify horrendous contracts.

No, the contracts look bad because they are bad.

I've never tried saying that they don't look bad. I'm saying that their play would be giving you more value for that same deal if they weren't getting run out against lines that are just better than them. The Wings banked on some good luck from 2012-on to land their elite player(s) while maintaining the roster so if they did land them, it would be turnkey. They didn't get the luck, so the "rebuild on the fly" failed.

 

[Retire91]

I think Washington finally winning shows the importance of having two great centers. They've never had a 1-2 punch down the middle like they had this past season, and I don't think it's a coincidence that this was the year they broke through. Their best second line center for this was Brooks Laiche or, arguably, a 38 year old Fedorov.

It's why we really need either Rasmussen/Veleno to show up as a top6 center with Larkin, or getting Hughes in this next draft.

The CAPS finally winning also underscores the importants of having top draft picks. Which is why the run of Holland trying to sign veterans and trade away picks hurt this organization so much. The elite talent needed to replace Zetterberg and Daytsuk needed to be obtained by top 3 draft picks. Something that was not going to happen when you design the team to compete for the wild card slot 8 years and running with absolutely 0 chance of winning a cup. Now the 8 years of sucking that should have been behind us are still in front because of that approach. Oh well at least Zetterberg Helm and Abby contracts will all be a thing of the past once the wings could be relivant again.

There is no defense on the Helm and Abby contracts. They were bad contracts before the ink dried. You don't hand franchise term contracts to 4th line talent and expect to be competative.

 

[Ezekial]

Okay Ovi and Backstrom were top picks, for sure.

But Kuzy was a 26 pick, Carlson was a 27 pick, Hotlby 93, Johannson 24, Wilson 16, Orlov 55, Burkovsky 23, and Vrana at 13 (pretty high comparatively)

The only top 10 pick the caps had after Backstrom (2006) was Karl Alzner who didn't make it to the Cup with them. Filip Forseberg was # 11 but obviously something stupid happened.

E:What changed to make those 2 top picks win after 10 years?

 

[Winger98]

Okay Ovi and Backstrom were top picks, for sure.

But Kuzy was a 26 pick, Carlson was a 27 pick, Hotlby 93, Johannson 24, Wilson 16, Orlov 55, Burkovsky 23, and Vrana at 13 (pretty high comparatively)

The only top 10 pick the caps had after Backstrom (2006) was Karl Alzner who didn't make it to the Cup with them. Filip Forseberg was # 11 but obviously something stupid happened.

Didn't Kuznetsov fall because of sign-ability concerns? Real or not, I thought teams stayed away from him because they didn't think he'd come over. Things that I notice is that two of the main drivers on the forwards were high first rounders, and they had something like 12 first rounders among their skaters. For comparison, we had six. TB had 8. Vegas only had 5.

 

[MO!]

Holland seems to be out of touch these days, at least on the surface. The issue with him is that he says he isn't rebuilding. Okay, so how do you turn this around? Does re-building on the fly really work all that well? I'm not so sure, but maybe he can pull it off. Got quite a few good young pieces now. If you can flip Nyquist for a first or even a couple seconds this year (if we are out of a playoff spot, which I assume we will be) then that's great. We got a massive return for Tatar. I think Green would've fetched us a first this year if not for his injury. But Vanek is for sure going to get you a second or a third. Hey, teams needing some toughness for a playoff push, Witkowski is a UFA next year, give us a seventh! (Don't think so but it could happen!) We may get rid of Howard this year to (pending UFA).

Unfortunately, we have to wait 2 more years for Franzen and Ericsson to come off the books totally. Three for Z. But hey, once those are off we can start looking to resign our kids and we should have some room in our cap. (Abby and Nielsen will be bad for awhile).

Cholowski
Rasmussen
Zadina
Veleno
Berggren
Smith
Hronek

We need some goaltending prospects and some more defence. Hopefully Svechnikov can be a 25-30 goal man to.

 

[Ezekial]

Didn't Kuznetsov fall because of sign-ability concerns? Real or not, I thought teams stayed away from him because they didn't think he'd come over. Things that I notice is that two of the main drivers on the forwards were high first rounders, and they had something like 12 first rounders among their skaters. For comparison, we had six. TB had 8. Vegas only had 5.

Yes, basically even after Washington drafted him he was contemplating signing long term in the KHL.

But, I'm refuting this line

The CAPS finally winning also underscores the importants of having top draft picks.

The importants(sic) of having top picks is true, but they were "pretenders" and "underachievers" for 10 years with those same top picks.

 

[inthe6ix]

Yes, basically even after Washington drafted him he was contemplating signing long term in the KHL.

But, I'm refuting this line


The importants(sic) of having top picks is true, but they were "pretenders" and "underachievers" for 10 years with those same top picks.

The "importance" of having top picks maybe true, but they were always in the conversation as contenders for Cup up until last year when no one figured they would and pulled it off.

 

[Retire91]

Okay Ovi and Backstrom were top picks, for sure.

But Kuzy was a 26 pick, Carlson was a 27 pick, Hotlby 93, Johannson 24, Wilson 16, Orlov 55, Burkovsky 23, and Vrana at 13 (pretty high comparatively)

The only top 10 pick the caps had after Backstrom (2006) was Karl Alzner who didn't make it to the Cup with them. Filip Forseberg was # 11 but obviously something stupid happened.

E:What changed to make those 2 top picks win after 10 years?

I hear this rebutle a lot, and its just my oppinon of course. But I always hear well they only really had 1 or 2 top draft picks. Well that's because it takes one or two top draft picks. Look at all the stanley cup winning teams. Any team that has not built through those 1 or 2 top draft picks who where critical keys to their cup window. When ever anyone brings up Boston there were a lot of great signings like a Vezena caliber free agent pick up from Europe and Boston did have a second overall pick in the lineup although young still stole a game for them, they also had a pretty once in a lifetime freak of nature repeat norris winning defensman near his prime. Take a look at Boston and tell me exactly which of Holland's moves are mirroring that trajectory?

I am not saying 2 top 3 picks are the end all be all to winning a cup. Drafting number 2 and then number 1 does not garuntee a cup in 10 years. What I am saying is that having those picks is a critical part of building a champion along with depth, trading, cap management and free agents. All of which Holland has been bad to awful at since the last cup.

Hollands management is not good enough to get back to championship cliber and its also not bad enough to get the picks necessary to stock the team with elite talent.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Hollands management is not good enough to get back to championship cliber and its also not bad enough to get the picks necessary to stock the team with elite talent.

So drafting Zadina at #2 or #3 makes him elite, but at #6 he's not? We are predicted to be bottom ~3 this season so if we aren't, it shouldn't be because Holland's management is too good but rather due to unexpected circumstances (like Zadina being an immediate star). Lottery odds also make the entire thing more difficult because we could miss the playoffs by 1 point and get Hughes, or finish dead last and get the #4 pick. The successful teams of the past ~10 years were not built through this lottery system.

 

[Retire91]

I didn't say that a top pick "garuntees" elite. In fact I pretty sure I said exactly that. And although the lottery system has been revamped you still have higher odds of elite talent the further down you place so it doesn't make sense to build sign veterans and aim for the wild card slot while you are trying to rebuild.

When you already have elite talent you can take gambles to hit homeruns and at least hopefully end up with good depth. When you are devooid of, meaning having no elite talent, you have to maximize your odds of obtianing it. I would have much rather had 6 or 7 years of watching the kids play take their lumps restock the cupboard and probably be opening a new window right about now poised with a cap friendly roster hitting its prime.