Pre-Game Talk: Week to Crawl Across the Finish Line (@LA, @ SJ, STL)

Pokecheque

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Bednar is trying to run some weird mix of dump in/dump out, and possession lol. I wonder what the hell happened to turn that around so hard? Barrie, MacK and EJ's injuries?

I want to break **** when they flip the puck into the neutral zone without serious pressure.

The biggest flaw with Bednar in that it seems like his fall back, falls all the way back to the stone ages when the team isn't breaking out clean. There is no in between it seems. Seeing Z and Barrie ring it up around the boards and flipping it to the middle makes me think it's 100% Bednar taught.

I agree the ring-around the boards thing is just plain stupid.

And while I think Bednar should be remaining aggressive even when leading, it's true that right now, he just doesn't have the horses to move the puck in all three zones like he wants to. Early on the team was actually pretty good at getting the puck and using 1-2 quick passes to a forward hanging down low to get it out of the zone. But injuries/illness/weariness has just exploded that. Soda's line is just plain built to be dump-and-chase. The top line moved the puck well but their defensive zone play has gone right off a cliff in the latter stages of the season. I am convinced both 96 and 29 are battling the flu right now, they both look about two steps slower than usual.

Beyond that, it's a bunch of tired rookies and grinders. That's why IMO it's a mistake to have Toninato out of the lineup. Just because dude can't score doesn't mean he isn't good at getting it out of the zone, which matters WAY more than scoring, which the 4th line can't do with Yak anyway.

Also, having Barberio die halfway through the season was a huge blow, way bigger than any of us on here have discussed. For all his faults, he was very good at using his size/speed/hands to secure the puck and get it out of trouble. Going from that to having to rely more on Nemeth, Lindholm, and Siemens really took a toll.
 

Pokecheque

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I'll add with Bednar that while the defensive zone play is an obvious problem, I absolutely HATE how they've played in the neutral zone the last few games. If you're not gonna forecheck, whatever, but just waiting there on your own blueline so that the opposition can make every hail-mary pass they want is just idiocy.
 
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CobraAcesS

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I'll add with Bednar that while the defensive zone play is an obvious problem, I absolutely HATE how they've played in the neutral zone the last few games. If you're not gonna forecheck, whatever, but just waiting there on your own blueline so that the opposition can make every hail-mary pass they want is just idiocy.

We may be closer to being on the same page regarding Bednar than we've ever been.
 

McMetal

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What bothers me about Bednar is his system seems predicated on outworking the other team, and that won't work in the playoffs when you're 7 months deep in a season. There's a lot to be said for "work smarter, not harder". His comments about "conditioning" at the beginning of the season we're infuriating to me because if you have a good set of systems you don't need to skate hard all game.
 
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Tommy Shelby

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What bothers me about Bednar is his system seems predicated on outworking the other team, and that won't work in the playoffs when you're 7 months deep in a season. There's a lot to be said for "work smarter, not harder". His comments about "conditioning" at the beginning of the season we're infuriating to me because if you have a good set of systems you don't need to skate hard all game.

He's simply not a good coach. This is his Roy/Sacco lone year of success before crashing back down into mediocrity. Except in this instance it's happening in year 2 rather than year 1.

He constantly gets outcoached and his "work hard" game plan is eerily similar to Saccos trusty dump and chase.

That sort of low skill grind em down style works just fine in the AHL, a league full of unskilled plugs and tiny tweener players.
 

Pokecheque

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What bothers me about Bednar is his system seems predicated on outworking the other team, and that won't work in the playoffs when you're 7 months deep in a season. There's a lot to be said for "work smarter, not harder". His comments about "conditioning" at the beginning of the season we're infuriating to me because if you have a good set of systems you don't need to skate hard all game.

Not true. He values skill as much if not more than a lot of coaches in the league. If he was all about "outworking" the opposition he'd stick as many rookies as he could in sheltered, unproductive roles and ride the living hell out of his grinders. He doesn't, and has never done that.

He does insist that his team outskate the opposition, but what coach doesn't want that? Especially this team needs to do that, their speed is their only edge in a lot of respects. He only really gets mad in his pressers when he feels they're standing still a lot.

He's simply not a good coach. This is his Roy/Sacco lone year of success before crashing back down into mediocrity. Except in this instance it's happening in year 2 rather than year 1.

He constantly gets outcoached and his "work hard" game plan is eerily similar to Saccos trusty dump and chase.

That sort of low skill grind em down style works just fine in the AHL, a league full of unskilled plugs and tiny tweener players.

You are entitled to your opinions, and maybe Bednar proves to be a one-year wonder, but this "low-skill" stuff is just not true. I really don't know how people can watch the games and come away with these ideas. It's simply not what's happening on the screen.

While there are a couple players Bednar likes that I feel he overuses a bit (Bourque, Nemeth) part of that has been borne of necessity simply because better players got hurt. Otherwise, I don't see where skilled players on this team have been ramrodded and put in positions to fail like so many "grinder" coaches are wont to do.

I will say that, yes, them trying to sit on a lead is just plain bad strategy, and have said so many times. I think he'd be less risk-averse if the team were better defensively, and healthier. But I still think it's bad strategy nonetheless.
 

Avs_19

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If Barberio is cleared then there shouldn't be anything to think about. Warsofsky is bad and he only plays like 12 mins/gm so Barberio can replace him.
 

RockLobster

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Even as one of his most outspoken detractors after last season and heading into this one, I think it's rather foolish to say that he's not a good coach. We simply don't know because of how wildly different both seasons for him have been. We have no idea if he's closer to last year or this year. A larger sample size is needed.
 

The Kingslayer

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Even as one of his most outspoken detractors after last season and heading into this one, I think it's rather foolish to say that he's not a good coach. We simply don't know because of how wildly different both seasons for him have been. We have no idea if he's closer to last year or this year. A larger sample size is needed.
Agreed. I wanted him gone after October but even my hating ass is willing to give him a longer look.
 

RockLobster

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Agreed. I wanted him gone after October but even my hating ass is willing to give him a longer look.

I'm not saying he should necessarily be brought back 100% guaranteed. I mean I expect that to happen (but if a better coaching candidate suddenly became available, with him only having 1 more year left...), but as I said--we simply don't really know what we have in Bednar. He still has things that I don't really like, but I'd have to sit down and think about them in order to get them verbalized correctly.
 
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klozge

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He's simply not a good coach. This is his Roy/Sacco lone year of success before crashing back down into mediocrity. Except in this instance it's happening in year 2 rather than year 1.

He constantly gets outcoached and his "work hard" game plan is eerily similar to Saccos trusty dump and chase.

That sort of low skill grind em down style works just fine in the AHL, a league full of unskilled plugs and tiny tweener players.
I think you're overrating the team we're having this year. Bednar is doing an excellent job imo.
 
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dahrougem2

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With Barberio back, I'll bet Mark Alt sees no more than 6-7 minutes of ice time tomorrow. They'll roll 5 defensemen from the 2nd period onwards.
 

forsbergavs32

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With Barberio back, I'll bet Mark Alt sees no more than 6-7 minutes of ice time tomorrow. They'll roll 5 defensemen from the 2nd period onwards.

I expect that myself but I'd hope he sees closer to 10 though to ease Barbie back in. At the LA game I hardly noticed Alt, which was a good thing as compared to Warsofsky and Barrie that night.
 

McMetal

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Not true. He values skill as much if not more than a lot of coaches in the league. If he was all about "outworking" the opposition he'd stick as many rookies as he could in sheltered, unproductive roles and ride the living hell out of his grinders. He doesn't, and has never done that.
It's not that he doesn't value skill, he just doesn't know how to use it. How many times this year have you seen a great shift in the offensive zone that lasted 60+ seconds but generated no actual scoring chances or even shots? He's just not a good enough tactician to figure out how to make use of what skill he has, and if it wasn't for MacKinnon going nuts and Bennett revamping the PP this team would probably have similar offensive output to last year despite the objectively better talent. Outside of that first line, the numbers for the rest of the team aren't dissimilar to what we were getting out of Bouque and Duchene last season.

What specifically do you see about Bednar this year that says he is worth keeping around? Like, what methods can you cite that he's using to get the results? I'm struggling to see what he specifically is doing to warrant being called a good coach now that doesn't boil down to "the team is better".
 

Pokecheque

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It's not that he doesn't value skill, he just doesn't know how to use it. How many times this year have you seen a great shift in the offensive zone that lasted 60+ seconds but generated no actual scoring chances or even shots? He's just not a good enough tactician to figure out how to make use of what skill he has, and if it wasn't for MacKinnon going nuts and Bennett revamping the PP this team would probably have similar offensive output to last year despite the objectively better talent. Outside of that first line, the numbers for the rest of the team aren't dissimilar to what we were getting out of Bouque and Duchene last season.

What specifically do you see about Bednar this year that says he is worth keeping around? Like, what methods can you cite that he's using to get the results? I'm struggling to see what he specifically is doing to warrant being called a good coach now that doesn't boil down to "the team is better".

Well, for starters, you can't simply throw "the team is better" in his face without then acknowledging that he was given a lousy team (and, since you brought up Bennett's contribution, lousy assistants) last season. That team was old, slow, and soft. No one, and I mean NO ONE could have succeeded with that sad sack roster. Roughly half of last year's roster isn't even in the NHL anymore.

Why doesn't he doesn't get credit for being given a ridiculously young roster and getting it to the cusp of the postseason!?

Specifically I like the fact that he's somewhat unconventional in his player usage. He has always been a guy who puts young players/rookies in a position to succeed, even last season. I also like the fact that sometimes he'll keep a player out there who made a big mistake so as not to ruin their confidence and even rewards players who've scored with extra time. Compare this to a recent article in The Athletic blasting Hakstol because he immediately put his grinders/checkers out after every single goal scored and it bit his Philly square in the ass the other night.

I also like his system, though I do agree it needs some tweaks. I think they need more presence in the slot area and open cycling, but I also think this is more of a personnel issue than it is merely a coaching one. That doesn't excuse him entirely though. I do like his system better than Roy though, who loved shot blocking, long-bomb passes through the neutral zone, and practically forbade his team from dumping it in. Bednar prefers carry-ins, but there's nothing wrong with dumping it if nothing is there.

BTW, possession numbers were indeed trending the right direction, they only started going south once injuries/illness started getting comically bad, starting with MacKinnon's injury in the Vancouver game. Unfortunately they have continued to tumble, it's something that has to be addressed next season.
 

Tommy Shelby

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All I'm going to say is that if you can't tell whether Jared is a good coach or not because of two polarizing seasons, then he's not a good coach.
When they're good, it's evident that they are. There's no "wait and see" with the good ones.
The same things were said about Sacco and Granato's first term here, and there's a reason why those two are assistants now. I see the same fate for Bednar after we hang on to him for far too long.

Edit: forgot to add that my personal belief for the team's turnaround lays on Bennett's shoulders but I don't feel like getting into that right now.
 

McMetal

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BTW, possession numbers were indeed trending the right direction, they only started going south once injuries/illness started getting comically bad, starting with MacKinnon's injury in the Vancouver game. Unfortunately they have continued to tumble, it's something that has to be addressed next season.
It's this kind of hand-waving that bothers me. All the bad things aren't his fault (injuries) but the continued problems are just "unfortunate".

And while this has gotten better, his player usage is of concern to me. Putting Yakupov and Kerfoot out for a D zone faceoff is the kind of unforced error that boggles my mind, especially when they were the 4th line and they were getting limited ice time. Stuff like that makes me question why he does things the way he does. Not to mention the problems you mention in the offensive zone. You could maybe chalk the problems against the forecheck up to personnel and having slugs like Nemeth playing the puck back there, but that's an issue too that's been causing problems lately. There are too many holes in the way the team plays right now that can't be explained away by just rookie jitters. Like I said, look at the team without the top line and I see a lot of the same problems as last year with new and better faces.
 

OwenNolan

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Am I reading this correctly??

People are debating whether Bednar is a good coach or Not?? Wtf is wrong with this place?

How many of you would have thought we would be in this position 10 months ago? Give your heads a shake .
 

Pokecheque

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It's this kind of hand-waving that bothers me. All the bad things aren't his fault (injuries) but the continued problems are just "unfortunate".

All due respect, as I've pointed out, you're doing that too. Why doesn't Bednar get credit for taking an insanely young team this far? Why is it just MacKinnon and the top line who get all the credit? Keep in mind he's had to deal with injuries to Barrie, Johnson, BOTH starting goaltenders, Wilson, Barberio, Andrighetto, Jost, Compher, and yep, even MacKinnon. He gets no credit for the team not going into the toilet with all that? None? He gets no praise whatsoever having to deal with a pretty awkward locker room situation to start the season with a star center who made it clear to everyone in the room he didn't want to be there any longer? No credit incorporating a 19-year-old blueliner on the fly and giving him top-pairing minutes? Not saying he's perfect, in fact there's a fair bit I'm questioning right now, but you're doing some hand-waving of your own when you're dismissive of those circumstances and quick to just praise one player for all the team's success. We all have narratives, looking at it objectively is hard, I'll certainly admit that. I hope I'm not wrong about Jared Bednar, but I know I'm pretty bullish on the guy, maybe too much so. Only time will tell.

I also wonder how much credit Bednar deserves for getting the most out of MacKinnon. Did you heap praise on Roy for turning EJ from an underwhelming defender under Sacco to an offensive catalyst? I know I did, and frankly he did deserve some praise there. But it's kind of a gray area when it comes to coaching, so...

And while this has gotten better, his player usage is of concern to me. Putting Yakupov and Kerfoot out for a D zone faceoff is the kind of unforced error that boggles my mind, especially when they were the 4th line and they were getting limited ice time. Stuff like that makes me question why he does things the way he does. Not to mention the problems you mention in the offensive zone. You could maybe chalk the problems against the forecheck up to personnel and having slugs like Nemeth playing the puck back there, but that's an issue too that's been causing problems lately. There are too many holes in the way the team plays right now that can't be explained away by just rookie jitters. Like I said, look at the team without the top line and I see a lot of the same problems as last year with new and better faces.

Well...using Kerf in a d-zone faceoff is actually not a bad idea at this point, certainly not when given the fact that the top line has been pretty terrible of late getting out of the defensive zone. Kerfoot on the other hand is actually quite adept at moving the puck up and out, it's even strength offense he's kinda struggling with right now.

I guess the only way he's gonna convince you he's a good coach (and let me tell you, despite my staunch defense of him, I'm not entirely convinced either) is if this year ends up not being another fluke. We'll see if he's The Guy, he most certainly has earned the right to be the team's bench boss to start next year.
 
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