Pre-Game Talk: Week of a long break (@Cgy, @Van)

[The Abusement Park]

https://www.tsn.ca/canucks-pettersson-breaks-shl-u20-record-1.1022272

What more... hmmm, right:

Elias Pettersson named SHL Rookie of the Year, Best Forward, and MVP

I’m not saying he’s gonna be a bad player or anything. Clearly he’s talented as hell. I just think that is a lot of expectation for him.

 

[21]

Good. Now tell me how that makes him potentially better than a guy who I have as the 4th best defenseman ever? If he has a career like Naslund (in the running for Hart, arguably the best player in the NHL at one point) he will be lucky.

He is not the currently most talented young Swede in the league.

Sorry, can't answer, we will simply have to wait and see, of course it wasn't very good starting his NHL career with a concussion. ;-)

 

[RoyIsALegend]

Where’s tonight’s GDT?

Haven’t had Avs in 5 days, let’s go!

 

[21]

Calgary been playing well lately and also have a good first line.

 

[UncleRisto]

Where’s tonight’s GDT?

Haven’t had Avs in 5 days, let’s go!

I gotchu.

 

[Balthazar]

The Pettersson hype is getting out of hand. Kid was shooting for 43% before the last game. That puts William Karlsson's unsustainable numbers from last year to shame.

 

[henchman21]

The Pettersson hype is getting out of hand. Kid was shooting for 43% before the last game. That puts Alex Kerfoot's unsustainable numbers from last year to shame.

Troll fix

 

[5280]

People are taking a hot start a bit too far. This team is a couple notches below Cup team. If you are a top 5-7 team, you are a Cup sort of team. It is kinda funny though, this summer I said this team was a good #2C away from being a really good team (I still believe that) and people said the team needed more time and this was another developmental year. Yet here we are, a good #2C would make this team a real threat in the playoffs. I don't think it would make them a Cup team, but they'd probably win a round. Without that #2C though, the depth on this team will be exposed in a playoff series.

If anybody thinks this over 1.5ppg pace the top line is averaging is going to hold (averaging the 3 of them is 1.53ppg), they are crazy. Since the 04-05 lockout, only 4 players have averaged that or better on more than half of a season. The names... Thornton, Jagr, Ovi, and Crosby. To think MacK, Rants, and Landy can average that between the 3 of them is crazy. Even an absurd 1.2 pace would drop the scoring dramatically.

I think that most of saw this same thing ( that we needed a second line center ) and I definitely think it is still true today. And I ask this in all seriousness. Was there anything out there that made any sense for this year and going forward? I don’t really know. I was all on the Statsny train.......but were there any other realistic options?

 

[henchman21]

I think that most of saw this same thing ( that we needed a second line center ) and I definitely think it is still true today. And I ask this in all seriousness. Was there anything out there that made any sense for this year and going forward? I don’t really know. I was all on the Statsny train.......but were there any other realistic options?

Stastny was the 'free' player, but Chucky, ROR, and Lindhom (if you like him as a center) all changed hands in trades. Then you have the others that might be able to be had like Hayes, Zibi, and J. Staal. There are names out there that the Avs could have pushed for.

The player that I would have went after the hardest? Chucky, followed by Stastny.

 

[Pokecheque]

I think that most of saw this same thing ( that we needed a second line center ) and it definitely still is true today. And I ask this in all seriousness. Was there anything out there that made any sense for this year and going forward? I don’t really know. I was all on the Statsny train.......but we’re there any other realistic options?

Not really, no. And I too was on the Stazz Hype Train.

 

[Foppberg]

Stastny was the 'free' player, but Chucky, ROR, and Lindhom (if you like him as a center) all changed hands in trades. Then you have the others that might be able to be had like Hayes, Zibi, and J. Staal. There are names out there that the Avs could have pushed for.

The player that I would have went after the hardest? Chucky, followed by Stastny.

I would think for Chucky they would've wanted Jost+, which depending on the plus wouldn't be horrible.

 

[henchman21]

I would think for Chucky they would've wanted Jost+, which depending on the plus wouldn't be horrible.

And I would have been all about that trade. Well worth it to get an established 24 year old player that looks like he can be a center long-term, but at worst is going to be a very good 2nd line winger.

 

[Foppberg]

And I would have been all about that trade. Well worth it to get an established 24 year old player that looks like he can be a center long-term, but at worst is going to be a very good 2nd line winger.

Yep. Him and Keller should be a nice duo for the next few years.

 

[henchman21]

Yep. Him and Keller should be a nice duo for the next few years.

Yup... sadly for the Avs, it looks like the Chakya vision is coming together. With Central re-alignment on the horizon, we might be facing them divisionally for a while.

 

[dahrougem2]

I'm not even remotely worried about the Coyotes

 

[henchman21]

I'm not even remotely worried about the Coyotes

They have a solid defense, some good talent upfront, and a long-term goalie... they may not be Cup contenders with their current trajectory, but they look like a playoff team. When they got healthy last year they really took off... this year they are starting to come on strong.

 

[Piestany88]

They have a solid defense, some good talent upfront, and a long-term goalie... they may not be Cup contenders with their current trajectory, but they look like a playoff team. When they got healthy last year they really took off... this year they are starting to come on strong.

Meh

 

[Pokecheque]

It does appear Phoenixdale has it figured out...for now. I still don't love their drafting and that may ultimately stop their upward ascent, but I like a lot of the other moves they've made.

As for Galchenyuk, I don't think the Avs ever had a legit shot at him. A package centered around Tyson Jost wouldn't have been nearly enough. It just so happens Chayka had the type of player Bergevin was looking for. And we'll see about that too--Domi started out fantastically his first year for the Coyotes before fading into nothing.

I just don't see anyone who could be available via trade/free agency who'd be an ideal bet to be the 2C for the Avs, unless someone suddenly becomes available we don't yet know about. I don't blame Sakic for standing pat for the time being.

 

[MarkT]

We didn't need a "testing" season for most of these guys, as I said in the off-season. We knew what Bourque and Wilson were, we knew that Greer and Toninato were marginal to make the club. We certainly know that Dano and Dries are currently marginal NHL talent. And many of us knew that Jost was going to struggle badly offensively without support, hence why I was saying all off-season they had to bring in a top six forward to support his development. We're not going to see the best out of many of these kids (Jost most notably) with the support they are provided with. Simply put, some of these prospects / youngsters aren't being but in a position to succeed and develop when there's a cycle of Gabriel Bourque, Matt Calvert, Matt Nieto, and / or Colin Wilson on their line.

If the Avs want to wait until the off-season before making moves - waiting for their two 1sts and Makar, not to see what guys like Dano, Bourque, Wilson, Nieto, Dries, etc., are - fine. But lets not pretend that Tyson Jost, for example, has gotten anything out of this "testing" season thus far. There are some youngsters with potential on the Avs - Compher, Kamenev, Jost, and Kerfoot - but surrounding them with 4th liners we already knew all about was not necessary, even if there's an argument to be made that waiting a year to bring Makar in and seeing where the picks end up makes some sense.

I disagree with almost all of that.
Bourque, yes, we knew what he was and is. No argument there.
Wilson had a horrible, injury-plagued season last year. We didn't know what kind of player he can be when healthy. And we still don't.
We don't know what kind of player Greer or Toni will be long term.
We don't know what Dano and Dries can do in our system.

But my biggest issue is I think you're confusing production with development. If Jost plays exactly how he has been, but he's on a line with MacKinnon and Rantanen and ends up scoring lots of goals, has he developed? I'd argue no. If Jost had better linemates, sure, he'd probably be producing more, but would he actually be developing?
And it's not like he's been put with Gork. As I said, we don't actually know what Wilson is yet, and we certainly don't know what Kerfoot is. So that entire line was made up of unknowns. Maybe all three are legit top six guys. Maybe none of them are. That's what this season will help determine.

If they had brought in help this off-season the help would have stolen the spots of the likes of Wilson and Bourque, not the handful of kids that have potential, and that help only would have aided guys like Jost develop.

This is an assumption not based in reality. You're assuming that if Jost had better players on his line he would have been a better player this season. We don't know that at all. And this fictional better player you have in the lineup might actually have been taking minutes from guys like Jost and Kerfoot. This is because this fictional player is an offensive player, so he's not going to be taking minutes from scrubs and grinders, he'll be taking it from other offensive players.

But this is all moot. The Avs didn't bring in a top six player in the offseason. I see no point in arguing about what they should have done. I'm more interested in the reality of who is actually on the team.

 

[Avs44]

I disagree with almost all of that.
Bourque, yes, we knew what he was and is. No argument there.
Wilson had a horrible, injury-plagued season last year. We didn't know what kind of player he can be when healthy. And we still don't.

We know exactly what Wilson is, and he's proving it again this season. Nashville fans who watched him for eight years told us exactly who he was. And he's done absolutely nothing but prove every single word they said since he showed up. If you want to look at Colin Wilson and tell me that in the midst of his 10th season in this league we don't know who he is then this is probably pointless to discuss any further with you.

We don't know what kind of player Greer or Toni will be long term.
We don't know what Dano and Dries can do in our system.

We have a good idea of what their potential is. One of them might be a third/fourth liner in the NHL, one will be a fourth line centre at the NHL level max, one has extremely limited potential, and one, yes, does have some potential. Regardless, none of these guys are exactly worth waiting for. Every team has a host of such players and prospects, they are dime-a-dozen. Hence why every year, at the end of pre-season / beginning of the season, you can always pick 1-2 of them up on waivers. Which is how Dano got here.

But my biggest issue is I think you're confusing production with development. If Jost plays exactly how he has been, but he's on a line with MacKinnon and Rantanen and ends up scoring lots of goals, has he developed? I'd argue no. If Jost had better linemates, sure, he'd probably be producing more, but would he actually be developing?
And it's not like he's been put with Gork. As I said, we don't actually know what Wilson is yet, and we certainly don't know what Kerfoot is. So that entire line was made up of unknowns. Maybe all three are legit top six guys. Maybe none of them are. That's what this season will help determine.

If we're going down this path, I'll just say you're confusing icing a bunch of youngsters surrounded by mediocre talent as "development" and "testing".

Your logic here is confusing. Scoring a lot of goals would be indicative of development and the successful processes of development -- are you trying to argue otherwise? Are you suggesting that, in your hypothetical scenario, learning to play well with talented offensive players, producing "lots of goals" at the NHL level, and finding provable NHL success is not key to development, if not the ultimate purpose of the development of a player like Jost? Producing is the tangible piece of evidence (and the one that ultimately matters in competitive sports...) that a player is trending in the right direction and that their development is on the right track. Producing (both ends of the rink) is the culmination of development going right.

Let me tell you what's not good development: playing a youngster with NHL talent that does not fit their playstyle and that often isn't very good; letting that young, apparently talented forward correspondingly average shots on goal per game equivalent to Patrick Nemeth; seeing that youngster admit that he's "frustrated" and "trying to stay positive" just 10 games into the season; watching that youngster's confidence slip; and moving that youngster to the wing on the 4th line in his last game played for the team due to his struggles and slipping confidence.

Is this the "Curtis Lazar school of hockey development"?

This is an assumption not based in reality. You're assuming that if Jost had better players on his line he would have been a better player this season. We don't know that at all.

It's an assumption based on extremely simplistic and basic logic. Surround young talented players with talented players who can help carry the load, create space, and set up and receive and chances, will generally help that young player out, y'know? Maybe help that young player not express frustration, struggle, and slip down the lineup? I'm not here to further argue something this simple and obvious.

And this fictional better player you have in the lineup might actually have been taking minutes from guys like Jost and Kerfoot. This is because this fictional player is an offensive player, so he's not going to be taking minutes from scrubs and grinders, he'll be taking it from other offensive players.

This might surprise you, but we currently have scrubs and grinders playing offensive minutes. I can't imagine that drastic harm that would have been inflicted on Colin Wilson's development when hypothetically at...29 years old, with 10 seasons in the NHL, he would have been bumped from the top six scoring role he's enjoyed most of the season.

But this is all moot. The Avs didn't bring in a top six player in the offseason. I see no point in arguing about what they should have done. I'm more interested in the reality of who is actually on the team.

Something we can probably agree on moving forward now. Lets just not kid ourselves about what's going on with who's currently on the roster.

 

[Balthazar]

Don't want Galchenyuk. Happy he's elsewhere.

 

[Avs44]

Course some of these guys show up tonight

 

[MarkT]

We know exactly what Wilson is, and he's proving it again this season. Nashville fans who watched him for eight years told us exactly who he was. And he's done absolutely nothing but prove every single word they said since he showed up. If you want to look at Colin Wilson and tell me that in the midst of his 10th season in this league we don't know who he is then this is probably pointless to discuss any further with you.

Players perform differently under different coaches and in different systems. It happens literally all the time. We have a strong idea of who Wilson might be, but I don't know how you can look at this season and some of the games he's played and not at least imagine what he'd be like if he could keep that up consistently.

We have a good idea of what their potential is. One of them might be a third/fourth liner in the NHL, one will be a fourth line centre at the NHL level max, one has extremely limited potential, and one, yes, does have some potential. Regardless, none of these guys are exactly worth waiting for. Every team has a host of such players and prospects, they are dime-a-dozen. Hence why every year, at the end of pre-season / beginning of the season, you can always pick 1-2 of them up on waivers. Which is how Dano got here.

Oh, and I wasn't aware you were psychic. I for one don't like to make definite statements about players' potential in the NHL until I've at least seen them play more than a few games in the NHL.

If we're going down this path, I'll just say you're confusing icing a bunch of youngsters surrounded by mediocre talent as "development" and "testing".

Your logic here is confusing. Scoring a lot of goals would be indicative of development and the successful processes of development -- are you trying to argue otherwise? Are you suggesting that, in your hypothetical scenario, learning to play well with talented offensive players, producing "lots of goals" at the NHL level, and finding provable NHL success is not key to development, if not the ultimate purpose of the development of a player like Jost? Producing is the tangible piece of evidence (and the one that ultimately matters in competitive sports...) that a player is trending in the right direction and that their development is on the right track. Producing (both ends of the rink) is the culmination of development going right.

So if a player gets dominated every time he has the puck, can't control it, plays poor defensively, but has it go in off various parts of his body 20 times in a season, then in your mind he's developing well.

See, when I'm looking to see if a forward is developing, I'm looking to see if he's controlling the puck, making good passes, playing well defensively, skating well with the puck, and getting scoring chances. Whether or not those chances go in often depends on things like lucky bounces or how well the opposing goalie is playing. Unless you're talking about a player like MacKinnon who can consistently beat even good goalies with his shot, I'm not too concerned if a young player is not scoring as long as he's playing well and getting chances. And I see no reason why a young player is incapable of playing well if his linemates happen to be Colin Wilson or even Gork. I can see that affecting their production and the line's overall effectiveness, but not the player's individual play in terms of what I'd be looking for. Obviously if a guy is on Gork's line it's going to affect how he plays, but it's still possible to play well and be on a like with unskilled grinders - just be the obvious best player on that line is all I'd ask.

Let me tell you what's not good development: playing a youngster with NHL talent that does not fit their playstyle and that often isn't very good; letting that young, apparently talented forward correspondingly average shots on goal per game equivalent to Patrick Nemeth; seeing that youngster admit that he's "frustrated" and "trying to stay positive" just 10 games into the season; watching that youngster's confidence slip; and moving that youngster to the wing on the 4th line in his last game played for the team due to his struggles and slipping confidence.

Is this the "Curtis Lazar school of hockey development"?

Hm. Strange. I don't recall saying they're doing a good job of developing Jost. In fact, I'm not arguing that they're doing a good job overall of developing anyone. I'm simply claiming that this season is about testing to see who will fit where long term with the team (or not with the team).

It's an assumption based on extremely simplistic and basic logic. Surround young talented players with talented players who can help carry the load, create space, and set up and receive and chances, will generally help that young player out, y'know? Maybe help that young player not express frustration, struggle, and slip down the lineup? I'm not here to further argue something this simple and obvious.

It will help him to score goals and get points, but as I've already said, that's not necessarily the same thing as playing well and developing. If a player not scoring (yet playing well) makes him lose confidence then that's a mental thing he needs to learn to get over, because scoring slumps happen to everyone.

This might surprise you, but we currently have scrubs and grinders playing offensive minutes. I can't imagine that drastic harm that would have been inflicted on Colin Wilson's development when hypothetically at...29 years old, with 10 seasons in the NHL, he would have been bumped from the top six scoring role he's enjoyed most of the season.

I know you think I'm an idiot if you think this is an argument against what I'm saying. But I'm not an idiot. I'm aware that a top six player they signed might have taken Wilson's minutes rather than Jost's or Kerfoots. But you're acting like such a player would definitely only take Wilson et al's minutes.

Something we can probably agree on moving forward now. Lets just not kid ourselves about what's going on with who's currently on the roster.

You're right, let's not kid ourselves into thinking this season is not about evaluating and developing the talent on the team.

 

[RoyIsALegend]

Don’t we have a game in less than 4 hours?

 

[S E P H]

Not trying to start a debate, but Bednar said in the postgame that Ian Cole has been our best defender so far in the season (I think he was referring to consistency when he said "best").

Don’t we have a game in less than 4 hours?

Foppa said in the other thread that he's going to make the GDT when he gets home from work.