Weaponizing cap space

[PuckMunchkin]

I never said they weren’t garbage signings. But the contracts aren’t going anywhere. We still have plenty of cap space to take on a Spezza or Callaghan (doubt he would waive for Van) but I personally didn’t like the Hossa return. Opportunities may come up during the season as well so I just don’t see the urgency

We are somehow talking past each other it seems.

 

[DonnyNucker]

We are somehow talking past each other it seems.

It appears so. The plot somehow got lost in a sea of bad contracts and mentorship

 

[Johnny Canucker]

Agreed. Last year at the deadline, Vanek was the most productive rental out of the 8-9 that got moved for picks. Everyone of them got some sort of pick, but JB wants us to believe that not a single team even offered a 5th or 6th rounder?

I guess he thinks everyone’s stupid.

If you really want to look at there are plenty to add to the list that the Canucks got nothing for.

Following the 2012 - 2013 season when it had become abundantly evident the team needed to rebuild they let all the following go for nothing. All of these players played subsequently for other NHL teams in the NHL, evidencing that they had at least some value. All of the following are players the Canucks got zero for and yet these guys went on to play for other NHL teams

Ryan Miller
Matt Barkowski
Brad Richardson
Ryan Stanton
Yannich Weber
Tom Sestito
Frank Corrado
Mike Santorelli
Linden Vey
Shaun Matthais
Zac Dalphe
Adam Cracknell
Nic Dowd (now contract with Washington)
David Booth

Lots of these players are fringe but the point here is that they had value enough to get signed elsewhere and play at least some. Did the team ever explore the possibilities of moving some of these for draft choices??? Would have been better than letting them move on for nothing.

Others were traded for virtually nothing

Zach Kassian
Jason Garrison
Dale Weise

Still others, like Chris Higgins, were left to linger around and become too awful to get anything for when a shrewder management team would have moved them when they had some value. Might make a case for Sedins here as well, although they were always worth a lot more than nothing. Overall, I think there is plenty of evidence that the Canucks have often not traded players earlier enough to get a better return and have thus pissed away potential value. .

Hard to imagine the Canucks could really weaponize cap space when they can't even get value for players they do have.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

So you are against taking on a bad contract?

Of course. We've got enough already, and it's not as if Benning's competent enough to get sweeteners added in on our end if he trades for one.

 

[Hockey Fan in PG]

What could we get for taking Seabrook’s contract?

 

[RebuildinVan]

What could we get for taking Seabrook’s contract?

It wont be enough. 6 more years at almost $7mil, he was healthy scratched last year too. Rather have Erikssons contract, which I despised at the start

 

[me2]

What could we get for taking Seabrook’s contract?

Cancer.

Unless you can 100% guarantee compliance buyouts (we will be needing at least 2 - Seabrook and Eriksson) then don't touch Seabrook.

 

[Hockey Fan in PG]

It wont be enough. 6 more years at almost $7mil, he was healthy scratched last year too. Rather have Erikssons contract, which I despised at the start

I was thinking Seabrook, Sikura, Bondra and a 2nd for like Hutton and a 3rd but even then I don’t think that would be enough.

 

[me2]

Just because those were the pieces Arizona took doesn't mean the Canucks would have to take the same deal. Hinostroza was just signed to a very reasonable deal and Oesterle is a depth guy, they weren't cap dumps.

I think something like Hossa & a 3rd for Gagner would have been something that worked for both sides.

Not enough for me. Rather just waive Gagner. He's gone in 2 and it's not my millions.

Kruger + 3rd for nothing would also be better. Same 3rd but Kruger is gone at the end of the year.

 

[Chubros]

I’m pretty sure Hossa is only costing Arizona $200k after insurance so it’s not nearly as costly as other cap dump moves in the past.

Apparently the Sens were very interested because Melnyk is a cheap SOB and this would save them a few million by artificially hitting the cap floor. Chicago knew this and asked the Sens for assets in return rather than the other way around.

Yes, essentially this made Hossa's contract a very attractive one to el cheapo teams wanting to hit the floor without having to spend lots of cash. Hence the very underwhelming return for Arizona. Such a deal would be pointless for Vancouver.

 

[StreetHawk]

Yes, essentially this made Hossa's contract a very attractive one to el cheapo teams wanting to hit the floor without having to spend lots of cash. Hence the very underwhelming return for Arizona. Such a deal would be pointless for Vancouver.

Compared to 2nd that nj got for savard it was underwhelming. Plus don’t sleep on the 2017 former 3rd rounder than AZ sent to Chicago. Sounds like he’ll be a solid 3rd line checker pk guy. Like a Hansen type prior to playing with the twins.

Chicago didn’t pay near the price they did to unload bickell. Having to add TT and get back 2 third round picks.

 

[LeftCoast]

I think the league is going younger and most GM's have concluded that 2nd and 3rd round picks are too valuable to squander. A few years ago, a productive 2nd line forward like Vanek on an expiring contract was easily worth a 2nd round pick and $5M+ cap dump with 3 years remaining was worth a 2nd round pick and a quality prospect.

There were extenuating circumstances, Vanek's playoff history is perceived to be spotty (really, he just had 1 really bad year) and Hossa's can go on LTIR in October, so his cap hit had some mitigation to Chicago. I also think Benning is a terrible negotiator and other GM's just made low ball offers knowing he would fold. But overall, I think the trend will continue to be that the league puts a premium on picks and youth.

 

[LeftCoast]

There is one method still available to "weaponize" cap space - when a team really needs to move some salary in order to make a bigger deal - similar to how Mike Gillis got Christian Ehrhoff out of San Jose.

Clearly Dallas and Tampa are both negotiating to get Erik Karlsson from the Senators. The ask for Karlsson has to be huge - I would guess a top tier prospect, a 1st round pick and another useful asset or two. As Eugene Melnyk is cheap, he also doesn't want to take back salary and Pierre Dorian - faced with trading the face of the franchise is looking to hit a home run - and replace the 1st round pick they gave to Colorado in the Duchene deal.

So ...

Ottawa:

• OUT: Erik Karlsson, 2019 3rd round pick
• IN: Miro Heiskanen, Dallas 2019 1st round pick, Ben Hutton, Brendan Gaunce

Dallas:

• OUT: Miro Heiskanen, Julius Honka, 2019 1st round pick and Jason Spezza (cap dump)
• IN: Erik Karlsson

Vancouver:

• OUT: Ben Hutton, Brendan Gaunce
• IN: Julius Honka, Jason Spezza, Ottawa 2019 3rd round pick

Ottawa hits the home run - they get one of the best 3 or 4 defensemen under 20 in the world, a first round pick and a roster player in Ben Hutton who can step in today on their (depleted) defense.

Dallas gets one of the top 3 defensemen in the world period. They also offload Jason Spezza's contract on Vancouver while giving up another young defender who has potential but has been inconsistent. They basically give up the long term future of the present, but they will be in cap trouble in the near future.

Vancouver basically swaps Ben Hutton (an inconsistent 25 year old puck mover) for Julius Honka (an inconsistent 22 year old puck mover with higher potential) and Brendan Gaunce for Jason Spezza while picking up a 3rd round pick.

 

[THE Green Man]

There is one method still available to "weaponize" cap space - when a team really needs to move some salary in order to make a bigger deal - similar to how Mike Gillis got Christian Ehrhoff out of San Jose.

Clearly Dallas and Tampa are both negotiating to get Erik Karlsson from the Senators. The ask for Karlsson has to be huge - I would guess a top tier prospect, a 1st round pick and another useful asset or two. As Eugene Melnyk is cheap, he also doesn't want to take back salary and Pierre Dorian - faced with trading the face of the franchise is looking to hit a home run - and replace the 1st round pick they gave to Colorado in the Duchene deal.

So ...

Ottawa:

• OUT: Erik Karlsson, 2019 3rd round pick
• IN: Miro Heiskanen, Dallas 2019 1st round pick, Ben Hutton, Brendan Gaunce

Dallas:

• OUT: Miro Heiskanen, Julius Honka, 2019 1st round pick and Jason Spezza (cap dump)
• IN: Erik Karlsson

Vancouver:

• OUT: Ben Hutton, Brendan Gaunce
• IN: Julius Honka, Jason Spezza, Ottawa 2019 3rd round pick

Ottawa hits the home run - they get one of the best 3 or 4 defensemen under 20 in the world, a first round pick and a roster player in Ben Hutton who can step in today on their (depleted) defense.

Dallas gets one of the top 3 defensemen in the world period. They also offload Jason Spezza's contract on Vancouver while giving up another young defender who has potential but has been inconsistent. They basically give up the long term future of the present, but they will be in cap trouble in the near future.

Vancouver basically swaps Ben Hutton (an inconsistent 25 year old puck mover) for Julius Honka (an inconsistent 22 year old puck mover with higher potential) and Brendan Gaunce for Jason Spezza while picking up a 3rd round pick.

Can't see Dallas going for that but from a Canucks POV I'd be all for it.

 

[LeftCoast]

Can't see Dallas going for that but from a Canucks POV I'd be all for it.

Heiskanen and a 1st is a lot to give up, but if Buffalo got a 1st, a 2nd, a prospect and 2 veteran forwards for Ryan O'Reilly, Erik Karlsson is a far more impactful player. Unfortunately, Dorian has undermined the market value of Karlsson but putting a gun to his own head. Also - Karlsson is a UFA in 1 year, so Dallas would have to re-sign him.

 

[StreetHawk]

There is one method still available to "weaponize" cap space - when a team really needs to move some salary in order to make a bigger deal - similar to how Mike Gillis got Christian Ehrhoff out of San Jose.

Clearly Dallas and Tampa are both negotiating to get Erik Karlsson from the Senators. The ask for Karlsson has to be huge - I would guess a top tier prospect, a 1st round pick and another useful asset or two. As Eugene Melnyk is cheap, he also doesn't want to take back salary and Pierre Dorian - faced with trading the face of the franchise is looking to hit a home run - and replace the 1st round pick they gave to Colorado in the Duchene deal.

So ...

Ottawa:

• OUT: Erik Karlsson, 2019 3rd round pick
• IN: Miro Heiskanen, Dallas 2019 1st round pick, Ben Hutton, Brendan Gaunce

Dallas:

• OUT: Miro Heiskanen, Julius Honka, 2019 1st round pick and Jason Spezza (cap dump)
• IN: Erik Karlsson

Vancouver:

• OUT: Ben Hutton, Brendan Gaunce
• IN: Julius Honka, Jason Spezza, Ottawa 2019 3rd round pick

Ottawa hits the home run - they get one of the best 3 or 4 defensemen under 20 in the world, a first round pick and a roster player in Ben Hutton who can step in today on their (depleted) defense.

Dallas gets one of the top 3 defensemen in the world period. They also offload Jason Spezza's contract on Vancouver while giving up another young defender who has potential but has been inconsistent. They basically give up the long term future of the present, but they will be in cap trouble in the near future.

Vancouver basically swaps Ben Hutton (an inconsistent 25 year old puck mover) for Julius Honka (an inconsistent 22 year old puck mover with higher potential) and Brendan Gaunce for Jason Spezza while picking up a 3rd round pick.

You can’t simply ignore spezzas mntc which would likely list Vancouver as one of the teams he won’t go to.

Spezza would need to get flipped to a team not on his no trade list for him to waive his mntc to have his rights go to Vancouver first.

 

[LeftCoast]

You can’t simply ignore spezzas mntc which would likely list Vancouver as one of the teams he won’t go to.

Spezza would need to get flipped to a team not on his no trade list for him to waive his mntc to have his rights go to Vancouver first.

I thought of that. Spezza would either have to waive, or he might list Ottawa as a destination and then Ottawa could flip him back to VAN.

 

[StreetHawk]

I thought of that. Spezza would either have to waive, or he might list Ottawa as a destination and then Ottawa could flip him back to VAN.

I believe it is a 10 team no trade list. Outside of Toronto and Winnipeg, I can’t see any Canadian team he would want to go to. Even Edm cause they have nuge and Leon.

Any good team needs retention on spezza to take him. Vancouver would need to be Vegas in the brassard deal. But there has to be a better return than reeves and a mid round pick.

 

[THE Green Man]

Now that all RFA's are signed as well we have $9,272,155 cap space available per Capgeek. Plus Dorsett going on IR. Benning needs to make use of this cap space to add some draft picks.

 

[racerjoe]

Now that all RFA's are signed as well we have $9,272,155 cap space available per Capgeek. Plus Dorsett going on IR. Benning needs to make use of this cap space to add some draft picks.

Does that include bonuses carried over from last year?

Keep in mind we can't use the Dorsett money until we actually go over the cap.

 

[THE Green Man]

Does that include bonuses carried over from last year?

Keep in mind we can't use the Dorsett money until we actually go over the cap.

Probably without would be my assumption but not too sure. Regardless we have the ability to take on a cap dump and get a pick for it- but Benning won't do it based on past situations.

 

[racerjoe]

Probably without would be my assumption but not too sure. Regardless we have the ability to take on a cap dump and get a pick for it- but Benning won't do it based on past situations.

It sounds like he doesn't understand from that comment a while ago he made about signing his own instead.

 

[me2]

Probably without would be my assumption but not too sure. Regardless we have the ability to take on a cap dump and get a pick for it- but Benning won't do it based on past situations.

Using the Dorsett IR is problematic as any amount over cap (needing LTIR) means you don't bank cap space resulting in this years bonuses being pushed into next year.

We had $852,847 in carryover bonuses from last year due to going over cap using LTIR. We should be trying to avoid those again, with Pettersson and Boeser here they could push $3-4m, so we need to be aiming to be at least $4m under cap and that includes all of Dorsett's contract.

They have $5m-6m to play with.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Using the Dorsett IR is problematic as any amount over cap (needing LTIR) means you don't bank cap space resulting in this years bonuses being pushed into next year.

We had $852,847 in carryover bonuses from last year due to going over cap using LTIR. We should be trying to avoid those again, with Pettersson and Boeser here they could push $3-4m, so we need to be aiming to be at least $4m under cap and that includes all of Dorsett's contract.

They have $5m-6m to play with.

Yeah I think with the FA signins we can forget this concept.

 

[me2]

Yeah I think with the FA signins we can forget this concept.

We could eat a contract like Callahan but that is about it, assuming there isn't an unity problem. You need to allow for general injuries, the man games lost where callups come up can eat easily $1-3m.