Post-Game Talk: We suck (Well, the Players, coaches, management, Ice Caretakers)

[Joe McGrath]

Luke was trying to give Francis credit for signing Rask long term when we *all* expected a bridge deal. Nobody expected Rask to get six years, but RF gave it to him for no obvious reason. Luke has been very consistent with his criticism of RF giving out long-term deals and not maximizing his leverage in the CBA. He's also been willing to give credit when a signing looks good.

We all agreed the long-term deal for Rask looked good for a while, when Rask was playing well. Now, we all agree it doesn't look as good. All Luke is pointing out is that Francis took a risk when he signed Rask long term, that risk looked good for a while, but now clearly was a bad idea. Your bias against Luke is showing when you criticize him for saying the same things we're all saying.

The Rask contract was unnecessarily rich, looked good for a while despite that fact, but now is clear was a big mistake. Not exactly a hot take.

I probably should have just said, I agree with most of the article, especially Faulk as an “alleged”captain.

 

[DaveG]

Not bad proposals. But why resign Ward? If we won't get rid of Darling, why not look to bring in someone who may have a higher ceiling than Ward? Honestly, I go right back to the well you dipped in with the ROR trade and look to grab Lehner. His numbers are decent, very good if you take into account the team he has played behind. He is a UFA after the season, and it looks like he may not be resigned by Buffalo as they look to Ulmark. If we resign Ward after this season of being the #1, then I have no doubt that Francis would give him $4M per for 3 or 4 more years. No way I'd want to tie our hands to him for that long or that cost.

I mean there's a chance that we could take a run at Raanta anyway since he's a UFA. Just not a huge fan of having 9 million tied up in goalies when one of them is maybe worth a quarter of that amount.

I don't for a second think that Ward would take that much to bring back, and think it would be more like another 1-2 year deal personally.

 

[geehaad]

You can't have it both ways. You can't say that a move is smart at one point and worthy of criticism the next. Actually, you can, but then you can just go f*** yourself at the same time. The *result*...yes...but not the idea itself.

Counterpoint to Luke's article: Peters system sucks. Now, debate that. Imagine if you will that you have every single player that you need to be successful, but Peters system is a clusterf*** that no group of 20 could execute successfully. I'm not saying that's an absolute truth, but it's a glaring possibility that Luke's ego doesn't allow, and it would explain everything.

 

[My Special Purpose]

There's not much that can be done on the reinforcements front without waivers or putting people on IR. We have 23 on roster... the NHL also has a hard roster limit during the regular season of... 23.

Guys we could safely place on waivers right now without any fear of losing them: PDG, Jooris, Kruger, Nordstrom, Rask, Ryan, Stempniak, Dahlbeck, Darling. Nine guys out of 23 (making around $19 million combined) that basically add nothing. Yeah, this is all on Peters.

 

[MinJaBen]

I don't for a second think that Ward would take that much to bring back, and think it would be more like another 1-2 year deal personally.

The issue is not what it would take for Ward to come back, it is what would his agent and Francis arrive at as a deal? Ward is the #1 right now and for the rest of the season. Will his agent "allow" him to negotiate a salary here as the #1 for less than Darling? Has Francis ever signed a UFA or RFA to a bargain contract? His Darling contract was fine, but no bargain. His Williams contract was Williams highest $/year ever and a bit pricey. The contracts for Slavin and Pesce are fine but in line with similar contracts around the league. I don't have any confidence that he would get Ward to sign for less than Darling or less than 3 years knowing the barrel we are over at the moment.

Guys we could safely place on waivers right now without any fear of losing them: PDG, Jooris, Kruger, Nordstrom, Rask, Ryan, Stempniak, Dahlbeck, Darling. Nine guys out of 23 (making around $19 million combined) that basically add nothing. Yeah, this is all on Peters.

Rask, Ryan and Stepniak would get claimed in a heartbeat. One for his future potential and the other two as free deadline deals.

 

[My Special Purpose]

You can't have it both ways. You can't say that a move is smart at one point and worthy of criticism the next. Actually, you can, but then you can just go **** yourself at the same time. The *result*...yes...but not the idea itself.

Luke: "I don't see why he had to sign Rask for six years when most guys in this position would get 2-3 years. Rask would have to take a step forward to make this deal look good."

Luke, a few months later: "Gotta give Francis credit. Rask looks like he's taken another step and the deal looks like it could be a bargain, even though I wouldn't personally have done it."

Luke, a year down the road: "Nope. Bad deal."

There is no flip-flopping here. It's the same thing every one of us has been feeling every step of the way. Nobody ever said signing Rask for 6 x $4 million was "smart." Saying it looked good a few months into the deal still doesn't imply it was "smart." We all said it was a) surprising, b) seemingly unnecessary, and c) highly dependent on Rask getting better and sustaining that level for a long time.

I mean there's a chance that we could take a run at Raanta anyway since he's a UFA. Just not a huge fan of having 9 million tied up in goalies when one of them is maybe worth a quarter of that amount.

I don't for a second think that Ward would take that much to bring back, and think it would be more like another 1-2 year deal personally.

We already have $9 million tied up in goalies. We're paying Eddie Lack $1,375,000 to play for the Birmingham Devils.

 

[Joe McGrath]

So I looked back to try to see when this rendition of sucking really started and I traced it back to the Bruins debacle.

Jordan leads the team in points since then which is never a good sign (9 in 13 games)

Only 3 players (Aho, TT, Rask)with a positive +/-, unsurprising since no one can score at even strength.

3 total goals from defenseman. Brutal.

Skinner and Ryan with the same stat line 2-1-3, -12. In a month.

Unsurprisingly the goaltending numbers are also horrendous. Cam has somehow managed to keep his GAA under 3 for the month but Darling’s is 4.13.

This may be the worst month of hockey this team has played (outside of every October) in years.

 

[NotOpie]

Guys we could safely place on waivers right now without any fear of losing them: PDG, Jooris, Kruger, Nordstrom, Rask, Ryan, Stempniak, Dahlbeck, Darling. Nine guys out of 23 (making around $19 million combined) that basically add nothing. Yeah, this is all on Peters.

Rask, Ryan and Stepniak would get claimed in a heartbeat. One for his future potential and the other two as free deadline deals.

I contend the same thing...

Also, Eddie Lack just got called up to play for the big club.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

So here's my issue with Luke - like so many around here he gets so spun up in his narrative that basic, verifiable facts escape him and that tends to undermine his piece, even when some of it's justifiable, to essentially being pouty that the team didn't do what he thinks is the smart thing. Case in point:

A born winner like Justin Williams walks in, gets snubbed for a leadership role in favor of a couple guys who have never won anything and gets swamped by the tidal wave of complacency.

Ouch, we clearly should have made Williams our captain as opposed to the Faulk-Staal co-captaincy, right? Well, hang on a second. A few of those basic facts:

• Williams has never been a captain or an alternate captain on a regular basis for any NHL team he's played for thus far and, when asked about it prior to the start of the season "brushed off" the question and seemed to be reluctant to be "the guy."
  
• For a guy who's "never won anything," Staal's got a decent résumé - a Stanley Cup ring with the Pens, he was a member of their leadership corps as an alternate captain, and when Crosby and Malkin were both out he embraced the challenge and was thrust into both being the shutdown center he had been in addition to carrying the offensive load that Crosby and Malkin would usually carry.

I get that there's frustration with how Faulk has performed as captain - his lack of media availability up to this point when things haven't gone well speaks volumes to that - but to add criticism of Staal to the mix is a little uncalled for considering that his credentials are as solid as Williams with the benefit of Staal actually seeming willing to embrace the leadership role (perhaps more so than Faulk in that it seems Staal is almost always available to the media).

 

[My Special Purpose]

Rask, Ryan and Stepniak would get claimed in a heartbeat. One for his future potential and the other two as free deadline deals.

I'll argue over Rask. I don't think anyone wants to be on the hook for the $16 million he's owed after this season. Actually, there's no way anybody would claim him. No way.

And yes, you're right. Ryan and Stempniak would be valuable for their expiring contracts and playoff depth, but I don't think we're getting anything more than a fourth-round pick for either of them. If we have an offer of anything of any substance for Ryan and we haven't taken it yet and called up Wallmark to take his place, I'm even more pissed at RF.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

So I looked back to try to see when this rendition of sucking really started and I traced it back to the Bruins debacle.

Jordan leads the team in points since then which is never a good sign (9 in 13 games)

In fairness, Aho only played ~8 games during that 13 game stretch (missed 2/3rds of the Boston game, 1/3 of the Calgary game, and 4 games due to injury) and has 7 points in those 8 games. Still, your point is valid.

Only 3 players (Aho, TT, Rask)with a positive +/-, unsurprising since no one can score at even strength.
3 total goals from defenseman. Brutal.
Skinner and Ryan with the same stat line 2-1-3, -12. In a month.
Unsurprisingly the goaltending numbers are also horrendous. Cam has somehow managed to keep his GAA under 3 for the month but Darling’s is 4.13.
This may be the worst month of hockey this team has played (outside of every October) in years.

Hard to argue that. They've been bad. You have to wonder how badly that loss to the Caps affected them though. Coming off a win in Washington, then minutes away from a 2nd win against the Caps and they blew it. That might be the turning point.

 

[NotOpie]

In fairness, Aho only played ~8 games during that 13 game stretch (missed 2/3rds of the Boston game, 1/3 of the Calgary game, and 4 games due to injury) and has 7 points in those 8 games. Still, your point is valid.



Hard to argue that. They've been bad. You have to wonder how badly that loss to the Caps affected them though. Coming off a win in Washington, then minutes away from a 2nd win against the Caps and they blew it. That might be the turning point.

One of them got them "turning" and the other got them "spinning out of control".

 

[Bub]

So, honestly, we may need to wait til after the lottery for the big move that I'd suggest, but I'd absolutely 1000% do it.

To Carolina: Ryan O'Reilly, meh AHLer contract dump as needed (Tennyson want return a caroline?)
To Buffalo: 2018 1st (as long as it's not top 3), Viktor Rask, Haydn Fleury, Buffalo's choice of Zykov or Saarela.

sign JVR in the offseason, even though we know by the end of his contract he will no longer be worth it, something like 6x6.

Move Krueger for futures, someone will give us a mid-round pick for the guy. See if we can get futures for Nordy and PDG as well as we do need more speed and more roster flexibility.

Sign someone like Hamhuis to replace Fleury until Bean is ready or until Hanifin-Faulk wouldn't be a dumpster fire.

Unfortunately I think we're stuck with Darling which blows considering I'd love to acquire Raanta and make a go of it with him instead.

Roll out with:

JVR - O'Reilly - Lindholm
Aho - J Staal - Teravainen
Skinner - Necas - Williams
McGinn - Wallmark - Foegele
Zykov/Saarela

Slavin - Pesce
Hamhuis-Faulk
Hanifin-TVR
Dahlbeck

Ward
Darling

Not that Lindholm has really done anything to earn that slot over McGinn, but I'd look to see if competent linemates might spark him a bit, the nice thing is that we can always switch those two as Ginner is capable of playing either wing anywhere in the lineup without killing whatever line he's on.

No complaints here, but I'm about to get on the cut-bait-with-Skinner bus.

To the larger point, we've got 9 games left before the deadline, and let's say we go 3-6. Clearly, we're out of the playoffs (realistically, if not mathematically). But...who here really expects to see any big deals made before the summer anyway? Teams will come sniffing around Stempniak and probably Williams (although I doubt he's going anywhere unless he straight up tells RF to "Trade me right f*cking now!"), but the GMRF we all know by now isn't dealing anyone else, is he? Unless someone comes to us with the NHL version of "Jimmy Garoppolo for a pick" I'm certain we're in for a quiet deadline day.

So we can sweat and swear and curse the darkness, but deep down I think we all know we'll be refreshing our browsers on the 26th to no avail, Canes-wise. Dundon or no Dundon, nothing big's gonna happen until summer. I'll be shocked if anything happens otherwise.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

One of them got them "turning" and the other got them "spinning out of control".

I thought they recovered ok from the Boston Massacre. They lost 4-5 at TB, the top team in the east at their place, beat the Caps at their place and were minutes away from beating the Caps again. That's 4 games against the 3 best teams in the east, 3 of them on the road, and they were minutes away from coming out of it 2-2. That could have been a confidence booster, but instead, it lingered with them and they laid a big egg against Calgary.

 

[My Special Purpose]

So I looked back to try to see when this rendition of sucking really started and I traced it back to the Bruins debacle.

Jordan leads the team in points since then which is never a good sign (9 in 13 games)

Only 3 players (Aho, TT, Rask)with a positive +/-, unsurprising since no one can score at even strength.

3 total goals from defenseman. Brutal.

Skinner and Ryan with the same stat line 2-1-3, -12. In a month.

Unsurprisingly the goaltending numbers are also horrendous. Cam has somehow managed to keep his GAA under 3 for the month but Darling’s is 4.13.

This may be the worst month of hockey this team has played (outside of every October) in years.

IMO, this is all window dressing. You and I had a debate in the pre-season about the status of our forwards because I was panicked about our lack of talent and you were pointing to the six-goal preseason game in Edmonton. This has been coming all season. We haven't been good enough since Day 1. And that was *before* Scott Darling crashed and burned.

I'm more and more convinced that the job Peters has done to duct-tape this season together to the point that we're actually still in the hunt is award worthy. And if he's really convinced Dundon that he's a great coach with subpar athletes at his disposal, I'd be very worried if I was Ron Francis. This very public back-and-forth between Peters and Francis could bring the whole situation to a head very quickly. Dundon could very easily make Ricky Olczyk the interim GM while keeping Peters around to finish out the season if RF isn't on board with improving the roster.

 

[MinJaBen]

And yes, you're right. Ryan and Stempniak would be valuable for their expiring contracts and playoff depth, but I don't think we're getting anything more than a fourth-round pick for either of them. If we have an offer of anything of any substance for Ryan and we haven't taken it yet and called up Wallmark to take his place, I'm even more pissed at RF.

We got a 2nd for Hainsey last year and a 3rd for Stalberg. I'd think we could get a 3rd for one or both of Ryan and Stempniak. And I will disagree with your Rask assessment. He is on pace for 20 goals this season. Yes, his all around play has been very erratic and I would trade him if the right deal was there, but I don't believe there is no team in that would take him. I could see Montreal snapping him up pretty easy.

 

[My Special Purpose]

We got a 2nd for Hainsey last year and a 3rd for Stalberg. I'd think we could get a 3rd for one or both of Ryan and Stempniak. And I will disagree with your Rask assessment. He is on pace for 20 goals this season. Yes, his all around play has been very erratic and I would trade him if the right deal was there, but I don't believe there is no team in that would take him. I could see Montreal snapping him up pretty easy.

The fact that Montreal would do it doesn't help your argument. Quite probably the worst GM in the league up there. And yes, I see your point, but teams don't take chances on guys who can't skate with $16 million left on their deals. More talented guys making a *lot* less money clear waivers all the time. I don't think Rask is any better than, say, Joe Colbourne or Nail Yakupov.

 

[geehaad]

only a Sith deals in absolutes

 

[MinJaBen]

The fact that Montreal would do it doesn't help your argument.

Of course it does. If he is taken by them, he is gone for nothing. Which is exactly my point. How does that not help my argument?

 

[My Special Purpose]

So here's my issue with Luke - like so many around here he gets so spun up in his narrative that basic, verifiable facts escape him and that tends to undermine his piece, even when some of it's justifiable, to essentially being pouty that the team didn't do what he thinks is the smart thing. Case in point:



Ouch, we clearly should have made Williams our captain as opposed to the Faulk-Staal co-captaincy, right? Well, hang on a second. A few of those basic facts:

• Williams has never been a captain or an alternate captain on a regular basis for any NHL team he's played for thus far and, when asked about it prior to the start of the season "brushed off" the question and seemed to be reluctant to be "the guy."
  
• For a guy who's "never won anything," Staal's got a decent résumé - a Stanley Cup ring with the Pens, he was a member of their leadership corps as an alternate captain, and when Crosby and Malkin were both out he embraced the challenge and was thrust into both being the shutdown center he had been in addition to carrying the offensive load that Crosby and Malkin would usually carry.

I get that there's frustration with how Faulk has performed as captain - his lack of media availability up to this point when things haven't gone well speaks volumes to that - but to add criticism of Staal to the mix is a little uncalled for considering that his credentials are as solid as Williams with the benefit of Staal actually seeming willing to embrace the leadership role (perhaps more so than Faulk in that it seems Staal is almost always available to the media).

Of course it does. If he is taken by them, he is gone for nothing. Which is exactly my point. How does that not help my argument?

I was trying to be funny in a "Montreal's GM isn't a fair representation in the sense that he's really, really dumb" kinda way.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

Well that's nice of DeCock to tweet after the fact. Write more clearly on the front end and there won't be any mistake what you mean. Now I wonder what else in that fit of pique needs to be "clarif[ied]."

 

[Joe McGrath]

IMO, this is all window dressing. You and I had a debate in the pre-season about the status of our forwards because I was panicked about our lack of talent and you were pointing to the six-goal preseason game in Edmonton. This has been coming all season. We haven't been good enough since Day 1. And that was *before* Scott Darling crashed and burned.

I'm more and more convinced that the job Peters has done to duct-tape this season together to the point that we're actually still in the hunt is award worthy. And if he's really convinced Dundon that he's a great coach with subpar athletes at his disposal, I'd be very worried if I was Ron Francis. This very public back-and-forth between Peters and Francis could bring the whole situation to a head very quickly. Dundon could very easily make Ricky Olczyk the interim GM while keeping Peters around to finish out the season if RF isn't on board with improving the roster.

I admit I thought the forwards were good enough to compete. That was predicated in Skinner showing up and scoring 35 goals.

There was never much of a margin for error though. I feel like our debate was more about the overreaction to a preseason game than anything else.

 

[My Special Purpose]

I admit I thought the forwards were good enough to compete. That was predicated in Skinner showing up and scoring 35 goals.

There was never much of a margin for error though. I feel like our debate was more about the overreaction to a preseason game than anything else.

Yeah, that sounds like me. But I wasn't wrong. I like to get ahead of problems instead of having to react. It appears that RF likes to ignore them like they don't exist, which I think we can both agree is a bad plan.

Regardless, this all comes down to tomorrow night. The Islanders play tonight (go Nashville), so they could mess things up a bit, but tomorrow's game is basically a "win-and-you're-in" type game, at home, against a team we're going to have to beat to make the playoffs. If we get outplayed again, and nothing happens (again), I really don't know what to say.

You *might* be able to make excuses for a no-show on Super Bowl Sunday against a non-conference opponent, but not tomorrow night.

 

[NotOpie]

Yeah, that sounds like me. But I wasn't wrong. I like to get ahead of problems instead of having to react. It appears that RF likes to ignore them like they don't exist, which I think we can both agree is a bad plan.

Regardless, this all comes down to tomorrow night. The Islanders play tonight (go Nashville), so they could mess things up a bit, but tomorrow's game is basically a "win-and-you're-in" type game, at home, against a team we're going to have to beat to make the playoffs. If we get outplayed again, and nothing happens (again), I really don't know what to say.

Kev, I too thought we had enough talent to compete at the low end. While I think some are being too harsh on Rask (9 points/4 goals in his last 15 games), he's been Jeff Skinner erratic this season. Part of our scoring dilemma came from the aforementioned Skinner and Rask's under-performance. However, until recently some of it can be placed at the feet of the miscalculation around Williams/Stempniak. Williams was supposed to be an additional 40+ points. But when Stempniak's 40 point pace gets subtracted due to injury, Williams' production was more of a replacement, not an augmentation. Ryan's and McGinn's offensive contributions are nice but nothing special and certainly 3rd line quality. The offensive black hole that is our 4th line is no longer representative of what a playoff contender needs.

Another key area that has been recently mentioned is our near total lack of offense from the back end. Hanifin's growth is nice, but with Faulk's regression (across his entire game) and Slavin's offensive stagnation, there's no real threat from this defensive corps.

So, while hopes might have been higher, seeing that this rerun was coming was a multi-faceted view into the future. One might have hoped that the front office/coaching professionals would have see it sooner, but alas that wasn't the case.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I don't think they played particularly inspired in any games on this home stand, they were just lucky enough that they played worse teams in the first 2 and Aho showed up. That to me is disappointing when, as a group, they all said "this is our playoffs."

Peters said before this home stand, it was his job to play well enough to force Francis to make a trade for a play making center. Well, he, and the team surely haven't done that. Losing to SJ and Detroit on a B2B is one thing, not even showing up is another. I don't think this is a playoff team right now, and contrary to a lot of others on this board, if they can't string a few wins together here, then I'm not for making changes that involve reactionary trades at the deadline, unless they involve a deal (ROR for instance) that is a long term piece. Those type of deals usually don't happen at the deadline though. Some will complain about RF not making a move, but unless this team shows some fight and gets some wins in the next few games, I wouldn't trade for rentals either. The goaltending still sucks. The defense is too erratic. Some key forwards are under performing.

They have 3 games before a tough schedule of LAK, at NJ, NYI, NJ, PIT, @DET, @BOS, @PHI, NJ, WPG, @MIN. Fail to do well in these next 3 games and they are likely sellers. There's still time, but unless they start playing better hockey, and quickly, that time will run out.