Speculation: 2018 Off-Season: We fell short again... now what do we do?

[HoseEmDown]

Remove the C from Stamkos? Watching this series it's clear what a true captain looks like and it ain't Stamkos. If they won't fire Cooper something has to change in the locker room and a new voice is needed. I hate Andreychuk but maybe his voice is what helped put them over the top when Lecavlier wasn't getting it done just yet.

 

[These Are The Days]

The problem wasn't so much tonight as it was Games 1, 2, and 6. Even if you call Game 1 a mulligan, getting his feet wet and well, having no response in Game 2 is pretty bad. And yeah, we won Games 3 and 4, but again, no adjustment, and we got dominated in Game 3 and borderline dominated in Game 4. Games 5 and 7 were our best of the series.

But it's on the coach to figure out how to win games, or at least get his team competitive. If we'd seen TB trying different things early in the series, I'd cut Coop a little more slack. But once Cooper finds success with something, as he did all season with our speedy cycle game, he simply HAS to die by that same sword (2015 TJ taking one-timers with a broken wrist on the PP). That's what happened here. I mean, sometimes it works, like Point vs. Bergeron, but it's like that only fuels his idea that staying the course is better than adapting on the fly.

We were in serious trouble against this structure. It was evident in Game 1.

We're toast. The secret is out and every team going forward is going to use that structure to beat us. Pressure is on Yzerman to tweak things up again. I'm not saying we need to get these particular players but give us a Mike Green instead of Coburn on defense and get him shooting the puck and a ROR in front of the net and I see a Lightning team that can win this game 1-0 because we can play this contest like we're the '97 Devils. I suppose Cooper could have tried something different but I'll give the devil his due of it working 3 wins before. It's perhaps better he didn't because we might be asking ourselves what could've been if we stuck with attacking the Captials. But those are things to ponder another day

 

[DFC]

Truth be told I think he was out of answers. I try to armchair this and I really have no answer on how we were going to win. I mean literally if it was up to me I'd have put Cirelli with Stamkos and Kucherov, Palat with Gourde and Point, double and triple shifted them and I would have had them out skate the Capitals defense. Combine your speed with skill and cross your fingers. I'd have done everything to invoke the "Miracle on Ice" mantra of "You don't defend them you attack them" the only thing I'd have done differently is demand any defenseman to shoot, shoot, shoot. But even then how effective would that have been? They can't shoot that well.

But I too would have failed because Kucherov and Stamkos didn't have a shooting mentality or their legs under them tonight. For what it's worth you and Macho are in a dead heat for who has come around most to Cooper. All you ever wanted was to see a fast team play fast and focus on attacking instead of defending. Well we got it and we got to within a win of the SCF again.

This is one of those times I really wish we drafted Seth Jones....

Yeah, but neither of us are NHL coaches. All I can tell you is the one thing that was obviously NOT going to work was sticking to a dump-and-cycle game that Washington was eating for breakfast. And that's exactly what we did. Washington effectively turned us into a perimeter team, and Cooper didn't have an answer for it. That means he got out-coached. Just because you and I can't come up with an answer doesn't mean he didn't get out-coached. All it means is Barry Trotz would out-coach us too.

I don't believe Cooper will be fired. And I think a lot of us are undervaluing how hard it is to get to the ECF 3/4 years, possibly being the 2nd best team in the league each of those years. BUT that doesn't mean Cooper didn't just flat-out got out-coached here. Both of those things can be true, and I don't think there's any way around it. I just don't think it means he's going to lose his job, nor does it outweigh the success he's had.

 

[DFC]

We're toast. The secret is out and every team going forward is going to use that structure to beat us. Pressure is on Yzerman to tweak things up again. I'm not saying we need to get these particular players but give us a Mike Green instead of Coburn on defense and get him shooting the puck and a ROR in front of the net and I see a Lightning team that can win this game 1-0 because we can play this contest like we're the '97 Devils. I suppose Cooper could have tried something different but I'll give the devil his due of it working 3 wins before. It's perhaps better he didn't because we might be asking ourselves what could've been if we stuck with attacking the Captials. But those are things to ponder another day

I seriously don't know what you think coaches do for a living. They're not cheerleaders who just hope the roster plays hard and scores some goals.

 

[TheSchmidt]

Vegas and Washington were top two in the playoffs this year in transition scoring chances. Wonder where the team with the most skill and speed ranked.

I get the concern about wanting more size up front in the forwards. But lets see how Vegas does in this next series. Pretty similar in size to what we have.

 

[These Are The Days]

I seriously don't know what you think coaches do for a living. They're not cheerleaders who just hope the roster plays hard and scores some goals.

That's not really how I meant it. What I mean is give us a player who CAN shoot through traffic and someone who can bury a dirty goal and I'll show you a coach who can make that adjustment. None of our guys on defense can shoot save for Sergachev and few on our team can withstand the punishment in front of the net to bury the goal needed to win. Unfortunately for Cooper all he could do is cheerlead because we are not built for that kind of game. We could have tried but then what? Cheerlead and hope it worked? If we are that kind of team then you could've fooled me because I can't think of many times where we won like that all year. We're a good team but not versatile this year. I hate to say it but what other sword did he have to die on?

Trotz knows what everyone else does -box us out and make us take perimeter shots all night and we'll beat ourselves. All Trotz had to do was keep doing it til he won. You're right, he died by the sword but to his credit it's a sword that won us 3 games. In any sense I do agree with your assessment that he is not getting fired. All we can really do is wait and see what Yzerman decides. Like you said we are in trouble against this structure.

 

[DFC]

That's not really how I meant it. What I mean is give us a player who CAN shoot through traffic and someone who can bury a dirty goal and I'll show you a coach who can make that adjustment. None of our guys on defense can shoot save for Sergachev and few on our team can withstand the punishment in front of the net to bury the goal needed to win. Unfortunately for Cooper all he could do is cheerlead because we are not built for that kind of game. We could have tried but then what? Cheerlead and hope it worked? If we are that kind of team then you could've fooled me because I can't think of many times where we won like that all year. We're a good team but not versatile this year.

Trotz knows what everyone else does -box us out and make us take perimeter shots all night and we'll beat ourselves. All Trotz had to do was keep doing it til he won. You're right, he died by the sword but to his credit it's a sword that won us 3 games. In any sense I do agree with your assessment that he is not getting fired. All we can really do is wait and see what Yzerman decides. Like you said we are in trouble against this structure.

Your answer is to give Cooper an All Star team.

Yes, we won three games, but we got dominated in two of them. Yet we kept trying the same things, over and over, despite getting dominated. He just had no answer for Trotz. There's no way around that.

 

[Stammertime91]

Killorn for Marc Staal?

God no. Stop with the f***ing Rangers players. Enough is enough. It's just getting worse lately.


Get rid of Bowness and Cooper. Just do it. We've seen Cooper can't get it done. Barring a miracle and one line saving his ass in 2015, it would have been two first round exits in a row. He rode that line to the SCF. We haven't been back since. What we have managed to do though is lose two conference finals since then where we were leading 3-2 in both of them and miss the playoffs one year (albeit a lot of injuries and trades). I would have loved to have been proven wrong but he won't get it done here. He's a good coach but it's just not working. When it comes down to needing a goal or finding a way to break a team, whatever he is doing or strategy, presence or WHATEVER he is laying out, isn't working. A lot of players went MIA this round but we looked like schoolgirls this round. I'm ashamed of what I saw. I still envision Paquette and Kunitz flying across my TV screen and continuing to deploy the same game plan for 7 straight games: survive.

I'd rather keep Johnson as at least he scores, at times. Killorn on the other hand is cheaper but he drives me f***ing crazy. He's like a mop out there always sliding around.

It won't ever happen but I think I'm at an all time low with Stamkos and I'm not sure how much lower I can go. I really am. I think for the first time I would not feel bad if he was gone and he's been my favorite player for years now. He just doesn't have it when we need it. We don't need an 8.5M coaster. We need a gamebreaker and he's not it. His ES production this postseason is just depressing. Yzerman would never do it but it's just so disheartening seeing him play the way he does. Kucherov was disappointing as well but I'm not ready to give up on him.

I think Paquette had himself a nice turn around year. Terrible production but he really played his heart out each round. Takes dumb penalties some times but he is always willing to lay it out for his teammates. Granny shot Callahan is the same but I will rejoice when that contract is gone. I'm glad rat face Kunitz is gone. I knew better than to trust a Pittsburgh player.

This hurts more than the 2015 loss imo. This was such a disappointment. Need size up front in order to play a heavier game. Get a center that can move his feet and get rid of Killorn/Johnson, listen on Palat, McDonagh (doubtful), Miller and go from there.

Get a new coach with a new system would be an ideal start though.

 

[DownIsTheNewUp]

I seriously don't know what you think coaches do for a living. They're not cheerleaders who just hope the roster plays hard and scores some goals.

I agree, we were at a strategic disadvantage the whole series and seemed to lack meaningful adjustments. The worst part is, even if Cooper's job was only to be a cheerleader, I would say he failed at that too because the effort level wasn't fully there at times during this series.

 

[Sky04]

I wonder what Sunny thinks Vegas is then?

A team with better players then Tampa? Because apparently coaches do nothing and it's all players who figure it out. JAM>Kucherov? Neal > Stamkos? apparently! Cooper has an all-star roster and it's still all the players fault

 

[Sky04]

Your answer is to give Cooper an All Star team.

Yes, we won three games, but we got dominated in two of them. Yet we kept trying the same things, over and over, despite getting dominated. He just had no answer for Trotz. There's no way around that.

We were "one game from the SCF" while underperforming, if we lost a close series where they had an equally talented roster, games were tight and they edged us out then sure, they outplayed us. Losing because this team couldn't stay focused, motivated and went nearly 8 periods without a goal with this roster? Awful, especially dumping and chasing against a team that was clearly shelling a lead.

 

[DFC]

God no. Stop with the ****ing Rangers players. Enough is enough. It's just getting worse lately.


Get rid of Bowness and Cooper. Just do it. We've seen Cooper can't get it done. Barring a miracle and one line saving his ass in 2015, it would have been two first round exits in a row. He rode that line to the SCF. We haven't been back since. What we have managed to do though is lose two conference finals since then where we were leading 3-2 in both of them and miss the playoffs one year (albeit a lot of injuries and trades). I would have loved to have been proven wrong but he won't get it done here. He's a good coach but it's just not working. When it comes down to needing a goal or finding a way to break a team, whatever he is doing or strategy, presence or WHATEVER he is laying out, isn't working. A lot of players went MIA this round but we looked like schoolgirls this round. I'm ashamed of what I saw. I still envision Paquette and Kunitz flying across my TV screen and continuing to deploy the same game plan for 7 straight games: survive.

I'd rather keep Johnson as at least he scores, at times. Killorn on the other hand is cheaper but he drives me ****ing crazy. He's like a mop out there always sliding around.

It won't ever happen but I think I'm at an all time low with Stamkos and I'm not sure how much lower I can go. I really am. I think for the first time I would not feel bad if he was gone and he's been my favorite player for years now. He just doesn't have it when we need it. We don't need an 8.5M coaster. We need a gamebreaker and he's not it. His ES production this postseason is just depressing. Yzerman would never do it but it's just so disheartening seeing him play the way he does. Kucherov was disappointing as well but I'm not ready to give up on him.

I think Paquette had himself a nice turn around year. Terrible production but he really played his heart out each round. Takes dumb penalties some times but he is always willing to lay it out for his teammates. Granny shot Callahan is the same but I will rejoice when that contract is gone. I'm glad rat face Kunitz is gone. I knew better than to trust a Pittsburgh player.

This hurts more than the 2015 loss imo. This was such a disappointment. Need size up front in order to play a heavier game. Get a center that can move his feet and get rid of Killorn/Johnson, listen on Palat, McDonagh (doubtful), Miller and go from there.

Get a new coach with a new system would be an ideal start though.

While I agree Paquette had a nice year, I think his spot is up for grabs and will most likely go to a younger player next year. Sort of ironic, I guess.

I think a lot of this comes down to Stamkos though. I mean, if your highest paid player shows up, it gets a little easier to swallow the fact that Palat, Johnson, and on and on and on, aren't superstars. Because they're not supposed to be. They're support players, but when the top dogs go quiet, the blame gets spread around.

Kucherov was awful. I give him a pass because of 2015 and 2016, where, IMO, he proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that he's a big-game player. I can't give Stamkos that same pass because he's never shown it.

 

[Stammertime91]

I wonder what Sunny thinks Vegas is then?

A team with better players then Tampa? Because apparently coaches do nothing and it's all players who figure it out. JAM>Kucherov? Neal > Stamkos? apparently!

You cannot possibly get a better example of what a difference a coach makes than this. Sure the element of proving people wrong and 1st year so no pressure but I'm not entirely buying that. This team has an inferior skill set individually than us and Washington and damn near every person that watched hockey wrote them off on making the playoffs. Their record is 12-3 after taking down a core that has won 2 cups by sweeping them, beating an incredibly experienced West coast version of us in San Jose and beating a damn good Jets team in 5. Put Cooper on that team and they aren't 12-3. Gallant has milked his entire lineup, thrown players like Haula and JAM into a juicer and turned kiwis into 100 year old wine. It's unreal the night and day performance. People have always wondered if a team will ever go 16-0. If Gallant was our coach with this personnel, we'd probably be the closest damn thing to it. He lost 3 games with that team.

We have all stars, captains, etc galore and we got THUMPED by Washington. Credit to the caps regardless. If Cooper is here for an extended stay, Vasy, and the triplets are why he's here. Without Vasy making this 7 and TKO blitzing the 2015 postseason, Jon Cooper would not be here.

 

[DownIsTheNewUp]

I don't understand people going after Stamkos. He and Point were the only forwards generating any real scoring chances for most of the series. Unfortunately, most of those chances were them trying to dance through defenders on their own to get to the net as the rest of the team sat on the perimeter. I guess Cooper thought we could cycle Washington to death.

 

[DownIsTheNewUp]

Erik freakin Karlsson wouldn't have put us over the top. We see it time and time again in the playoffs, the most skilled players can be shut down by a team that is playing as a unit.

 

[Stammertime91]

I don't understand people going after Stamkos. He and Point were the only forwards generating any real scoring chances for most of the series. Unfortunately, most of those chances were them trying to dance through defenders on their own to get to the net as the rest of the team sat on the perimeter. I guess Cooper thought we could cycle Washington to death.

He deserves it though. I think everybody noticed how great he was in games 1 through 3 but his even strength production in 17 games was just depressing. It's how I feel when I hit roadkill. It's the same thing every postseason. It's not like Kucherov where it's like, oh he had one bad postseason. This is his career in my eyes. His 60 goal and probably 50 goal years are gone. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say unless he sees a sports psychologist that has him write down "I will not pass" on a chalkboard Bart Simpson style than I doubt he even hits 40 again. Don't get me wrong, he's a fantastic player but only in the regular season. He was invisible in games 4, 5 and 6. Tonight he tried but it was pretty much pissing into the wind at that point. I like the guy. A lot. I think he's a great guy and to some extent I think he helped secure this franchises future when he arrived. It was hope during times that were becoming dark again. I'm forever grateful. I just don't think he's the guy to lead us to a cup. I don't. It pains me saying it as much as it pained me seeing MSL and Vinny go. I doubt he ever leaves but his style is just so predictable to the point where it's hampering to the team. Our 1st line was worse than a line consisted of Kunitz, Paquette and Callahan. You can live with that if you're Jersey in round 1, but if you're the Lightning in the conference final - you're f***ed. And here we are.

 

[These Are The Days]

Your answer is to give Cooper an All Star team.

Yes, we won three games, but we got dominated in two of them. Yet we kept trying the same things, over and over, despite getting dominated. He just had no answer for Trotz. There's no way around that.

I don't want to imply that we need to be an all star team. It really just needs players who can get the puck through traffic and a few who can get the garbage goals. I'd like to think it's not such a rare talent. It sucks but it seems to have be the case for years with us. We sacrifice offensive efficiency with our defensemen for the actual defensive ability. Meanwhile the Caps have guys like Orlov and Carlson who treat games like a shooting gallery. Coop can tell them to shoot more but I'm sure it would be at a guy like Beagle who then promptly dumps it out.

We can only work with what we have and I hate to say it but it's best suited for a game that plays right into Trotz's hands. Believe me if I really thought we could win another way I'd be a lot more upset that Cooper didn't try but I'm under the impression it would have still been a Capitals win but without as much dominating play against us. We're just not built to crash the net and score dirty and Trotz was able to exploit it. I'm not sure what else Cooper would have done. Like I said if we could have won like that it sure would have been a shock to me because that structure has been the recipe for success against us all year. This sucks but the standard has been set. I think you're right his seat gets warm if we don't at least make the ECF next year.

But on a positive note I'm hopeful that Sergachev will fast track like you think he will and will be ready for all in game situations. I do think he can be an answer to better shooting from the blue line and getting the puck through traffic and on net. And I'm hopeful that one of our prospects will have a good nose for the net or perhaps a guy like Gourde (who scores from a few feet out anyway so often) will get better at it. Our window is not closed and I have to imagine even a few years from now we'll be able to develop more versatility as a team that can play a 60 minute against a structured defense and win or a wide open game.

 

[DFC]

I don't understand people going after Stamkos. He and Point were the only forwards generating any real scoring chances for most of the series. Unfortunately, most of those chances were them trying to dance through defenders on their own to get to the net as the rest of the team sat on the perimeter. I guess Cooper thought we could cycle Washington to death.

I give Stamkos credit for the first few games, where I think he was by far our best player. I don't think he was awful tonight, but I think it's setting the bar pretty low for an 8.5m player to not expect him to come up big once in a while. So, for me, it's a culmination of his entire playoff career. It would just be really nice if he'd be "the guy" for once in a big game.

Like Ovy tonight. He was a beast. And he's been a beast throughout these playoffs. Stamkos has never had a playoff run anything close to that, and, given his salary and, yeah, his reputation, it's hard not to be disappointed when he always feels like a secondary scorer rather than the guy we're leaning on to get it done.

 

[DFC]

I don't want to imply that we need to be an all star team. It really just needs players who can get the puck through traffic and a few who can get the garbage goals. I'd like to think it's not such a rare talent. It sucks but it seems to have be the case for years with us. We sacrifice offensive efficiency with our defensemen for the actual defensive ability. Meanwhile the Caps have guys like Orlov and Carlson who treat games like a shooting gallery. Coop can tell them to shoot more but I'm sure it would be at a guy like Beagle who then promptly dumps it out.

We can only work with what we have and I hate to say it but it's best suited for a game that plays right into Trotz's hands. Believe me if I really thought we could win another way I'd be a lot more upset that Cooper didn't try but I'm under the impression it would have still been a Capitals win but without as much dominating play against us. We're just not built to crash the net and score dirty and Trotz was able to exploit it. I'm not sure what else Cooper would have done. Like I said if we could have won like that it sure would have been a shock to me because that structure has been the recipe for success against us all year. This sucks but the standard has been set. I think you're right his seat gets warm if we don't at least make the ECF next year.

But on a positive note I'm hopeful that Sergachev will fast track like you think he will and will be ready for all in game situations. I do think he can be an answer to better shooting from the blue line and getting the puck through traffic and on net. And I'm hopeful that one of our prospects will have a good nose for the net or perhaps a guy like Gourde (who scores from a few feet out anyway so often) will get better at it. Our window is not closed and I have to imagine even a few years from now we'll be able to develop more versatility as a team that can play a 60 minute against a structured defense and win or a wide open game.

Bobby Hull, Brett Hull, and Mike Bossy combined weren't gonna get pucks through that wall of players. At least not with Cooper's strategy. You can't find space that doesn't exist. You create space through strategy. That's the part that's lacking for us. You're pointing the finger at literally everything else without considering, "Hey, maybe the coach could have tried something different." Just because you can't conceive a better gameplan doesn't mean the guy getting paid a couple million per year shouldn't take a crack at it.

 

[Jayan]

You can have back your 1st for McD.

Stevie knows Gortons number.

 

[Sky04]

You cannot possibly get a better example of what a difference a coach makes than this. Sure the element of proving people wrong and 1st year so no pressure but I'm not entirely buying that. This team has an inferior skill set individually than us and Washington and damn near every person that watched hockey wrote them off on making the playoffs. Their record is 12-3 after taking down a core that has won 2 cups by sweeping them, beating an incredibly experienced West coast version of us in San Jose and beating a damn good Jets team in 5. Put Cooper on that team and they aren't 12-3. Gallant has milked his entire lineup, thrown players like Haula and JAM into a juicer and turned kiwis into 100 year old wine. It's unreal the night and day performance. People have always wondered if a team will ever go 16-0. If Gallant was our coach with this personnel, we'd probably be the closest damn thing to it. He lost 3 games with that team.

We have all stars, captains, etc galore and we got THUMPED by Washington. Credit to the caps regardless. If Cooper is here for an extended stay, Vasy, and the triplets are why he's here. Without Vasy making this 7 and TKO blitzing the 2015 postseason, Jon Cooper would not be here.

You watch Vegas and they are thoroughly impressive and entertaining, exactly what you'd expect the compete level of a top team to be at, you watch the Lightning and feel a little let down that their play doesn't match their talent level. The Lightning deservedly take heat with their performance this playoffs, a lot of casual fans taking noticing poor effort level and entitled attitude the team seems to show.

 

[Stammertime91]

I don't get why we kept shooting it so soft on a dump and chase. They had one guy pressure with 4 back. Clearly their asses were puckered up as they didn't want to get beaten by our speed. It worked. We shot it and didn't retrieve it. If you FLIP the puck up like you do clearances, it can bounce and it gives you more time to retrieve it. Or FIRE it in. We didn't do that one f***ing time bar in game 3, we sailed 3 hail Mary's in the opening period over their defenseman and it resulted in our first odd man rushes. It was like a new discovery. Even Pierre McGuire was salivating over it. Then suddenly it stopped. Everytime the puck bobbles is more pressure on a turning defenseman to make a play when a forechecker is skating forward full speed, or they can fan on it, etc. When you dump it in straight to Holtby or let them make one pass followed by a stretch pass, it's self defeating. Pens do this like clockwork cause Sullivan isn't inept. They SHOOT for the glass not the board, AND might I add, they retrieve it. Its such a deliberate attempt to wrap it hard so either the winger or defenseman on the wrap gets it. We shot repeatedly, a failing game plan across 21 periods, and we failed to score in 8 straight of those and will employ the same coach, more than likely, the following season. If I was Yzerman, the decision is very clear. Crystal clear. It's maddening whoever thought zone entries would be easy stick handling by 4 guys stacked on the blue line or dumping it in for Holtby to clear was going to create offense. It f***ing failed. Every game give or take a period we would edge them was the same failure. There was no attempt to even make things uncomfortable on them. That pulling a forward high at the blue line thing that NBC noted we changed was a mercy plea and a last resort. That was about the dumbest thing I've ever seen and a white flag. We have no shots, no forecheck and the game plan for game 7 was yank a forward high - who would still look to pass and not shoot, to the blue line for more offense? So less traffic down low was Cooper's one adjustment? It's mind boggling. Yzerman needs to can whoever came up with that idea. It did f*** all.

 

[Stammertime91]

You can have back your 1st for McD.

Stevie knows Gortons number.

Take McDonagh back for nothing so we can play Sergachev and all is forgiven.

 

[Sky04]

Bobby Hull, Brett Hull, and Mike Bossy combined weren't gonna get pucks through that wall of players. At least not with Cooper's strategy. You can't find space that doesn't exist. You create space through strategy. That's the part that's lacking for us. You're pointing the finger at literally everything else without considering, "Hey, maybe the coach could have tried something different." Just because you can't conceive a better gameplan doesn't mean the guy getting paid a couple million per year shouldn't take a crack at it.

Down 3-0 going into the 3rd and you don't register a shot on net for 9 and a half minutes. Is it a coincidence everybody on this team sans Point continued to attempt a dump and chase until the end? This look like a game where the players followed the system to a fault, looked like they did what they were told until the end. Those last 4-5 minutes where everybody just looked defeated looked like the start of what could be Cooper losing the room, I've never seen a team go down like that before, they just completely stopped fighting.

 

[DFC]

Down 3-0 going into the 3rd and you don't register a shot on net for 9 and a half minutes. Is it a coincidence everybody on this team sans Point continued to attempt a dump and chase until the end? This look like a game where the players followed the system to a fault, looked like they did what they were told until the end. Those last 4-5 minutes where everybody just looked defeated looked like the start of what could be Cooper losing the room, I've never seen a team go down like that before, they just completely stopped fighting.

Even in Point's case, he had to walk through a guy or two to get those shots off. Very few players are able to do that.

Maybe there was no answer with this personnel, like Sunny's saying (I don't buy it), but it would have been nice to make the attempt.

The main knock on Cooper, always, has been he doesn't make adjustments on the fly. And I think this is just the latest example.