GDT: WCQF Game 5: Coyotes @ Avalanche | 2:30 PM | FSAZ | 8/19

[Fuhrious]

I'm not watching another game until RT is gone. Hope i'm not alone in this.

You are not alone. Hawerchuk's passing has left me very nostalgic for the Jets; despite having lurked here for years and enjoying chatting with all of you, if AM doesnt have the sense to move on from RT/FoT after this debacle, I'm going to start spending my time over on f29.

 

[PainForShane]

And, as I said - adding Hall solved the potential offensive woes. We have a good defense, but it became clear that our defense was not coached to inprove as the season goes on and prepare for other opponents. The defense falling apart was the slow spiral to the season.

Adding Hall solved our offensive woes? Bux, we scored 6 non-empty net goals against the Avs over the entire 5 game series. Yes our defense fell apart in games 4 and 5 but we still only scored one goal in each which is not nearly enough to be competitive even if Kuemper stands on his head every game.

For 4 out of 5 games, we were thoroughly outplayed by the Avs, everything from scoring opportunities, presence down low, heart, you name it. The only advantage we had was Kuemper.

I agree that this team is about average and may be a playoff bubble team next year. But the playoffs are not the regular season and we have a very long way to go if we want to compete with (and beat) legitimate contenders like COL, Vegas, STL etc over a 7 game series

 

[Vinny Boombatz]

Adding Hall didn't change our offense one iota...not one. We basically remained bottom 5 in the league in offense...now granted, it's not that Hall can't bring offense, but he can't bring offense in Tocchet's system. No one can, which is why we've been bottom 5 in league scoring during Tocchet's tenure.

Hall to me is a straight line winger, there really isn't anything shifty in his game ala MacKinnon...this team needs a major overhaul with a good mix of grit, skill, but most importantly "Energy". You have to have more "Energy" players than anything else. We have 2-single Energy player in Hall/Garland...that's it.

Terrible mix of players.

 

[Canis Latrans]

Adding Hall didn't change our offense one iota...not one. We basically remained bottom 5 in the league in offense...now granted, it's not that Hall can't bring offense, but he can't bring offense in Tocchet's system. No one can, which is why we've been bottom 5 in league scoring during Tocchet's tenure.

Hall to me is a straight line winger, there really isn't anything shifty in his game ala MacKinnon...this team needs a major overhaul with a good mix of grit, skill, but most importantly "Energy". You have to have more "Energy" players than anything else. We have 2-single Energy player in Hall/Garland...that's it.

Terrible mix of players.

Remember how Hall didn't have to adjust to our system and instead we'd adjust to him. There was no system and he was expected to just be the new system, but of course it fails when other players can't motor like he does or display his puck skills. Hall's offense all stemmed from his talent, so I actually think were we to get an actual offensive system that he could play a huge role in it.

 

[XX]

Hall to me is a straight line winger, there really isn't anything shifty in his game ala MacKinnon...this team needs a major overhaul with a good mix of grit, skill, but most importantly "Energy". You have to have more "Energy" players than anything else. We have 2-single Energy player in Hall/Garland...that's it.

Hall, like most elite players, is a zone entry god. It's completely wasted on Tocchet because they don't break out or attempt normal entries, they just dump it in and hope for a turnover. You want Hall skating with the puck through the neutral zone at defenders so he either breaks through, finds a passing seam, or draws a penalty. MacKinnon and Rantanen did this all series because their coach understands modern offense and has installed a pressing attack that makes the most of Colorado's athletes.

Tocchet is jamming guys into his dumbshit style and it suppresses talent in the worst way. The offense isn't any better than when guys like Archibald and Cousins were contributors. Phil Kessel can't score unless the other team has a bad change or gives up a muffin loose puck near him. He's completely lost.

Bruce Boudreau, by comparison, usually coaxes excellent offensive and defensive metrics out of rosters that don't really have any business being good. Good coaches can do that. Look at AV in Philly.

If the Coyotes move forward with Tocchet, it's just peeing on the fans at that point and telling them it's rain.

 

[Canis Latrans]

Hall, like most elite players, is a zone entry god. It's completely wasted on Tocchet because they don't break out or attempt normal entries, they just dump it in and hope for a turnover. You want Hall skating with the puck through the neutral zone at defenders so he either breaks through, finds a passing seam, or draws a penalty. MacKinnon and Rantanen did this all series because their coach understands modern offense and has installed a pressing attack that makes the most of Colorado's athletes.

Tocchet is jamming guys into his dumbshit style and it suppresses talent in the worst way. The offense isn't any better than when guys like Archibald and Cousins were contributors. Phil Kessel can't score unless the other team has a bad change or gives up a muffin loose puck near him. He's completely lost.

Bruce Boudreau, by comparison, usually coaxes excellent offensive and defensive metrics out of rosters that don't really have any business being good. Good coaches can do that. Look at AV in Philly.

If the Coyotes move forward with Tocchet, it's just peeing on the fans at that point and telling them it's rain.

You know who else is good at zone entries prior to arriving here - Schmaltz and Kessel, and all three were in the 90th percentile plus from the stats I'd seen. That's three players who could have been employed on three different lines to get us into the offensive zone consistently, or load up on one or two. I think unfortunately it wouldn't matter though, because once we are in the zone the cycle game can't seem to take that next step to move it to some one who is open for a good chance. You saw it here and there with Hall and Garland, but that was about it. I think because establishing offensive zone time was so rare for the team, that this aspect of the offense has gone without criticism, so I don't have a lot of confidence that simply fixing the transition game would increase scoring enough to move the team up a tier. As further evidence for this, see the power play, where yes they struggled to still get it into the zone and maintain possession, but yet did so at a higher rate than at even strength, and then still failed to generate clear lanes and scoring chances more than once in a blue moon.

So yeah, sadly we seemingly only play half the game, and because of an abysmal transition game, we miss out on seeing an equally inept offensive zone scheme.

 

[XX]

Garland thrives in chaos because his formative years were spent playing in the scrambly Q in a starring role for a coach that would give him as much TOI as his legs could handle and then some. His reward for being one of the most efficient forwards in the league and scoring in all situations was being moved up and down the lineup without much thought by Tocchet.

You would think Tocchet would feel an affinity for such a player but instead he just forcefed Phil tons of unearned icetime. Hayton couldn't even draw in most of the time despite obvious skill and possession ability.

Tocchet wants everyone to play like Vinny or Grabner. That's just not an optimum use of talent at the NHL level. It's garbage. It's only tolerable if it works and it's not working.

I don't even know where he f***ing came up with this because it's not how Pittsburgh plays.

 

[BUX7PHX]

Adding Hall solved our offensive woes? Bux, we scored 6 non-empty net goals against the Avs over the entire 5 game series. Yes our defense fell apart in games 4 and 5 but we still only scored one goal in each which is not nearly enough to be competitive even if Kuemper stands on his head every game.

For 4 out of 5 games, we were thoroughly outplayed by the Avs, everything from scoring opportunities, presence down low, heart, you name it. The only advantage we had was Kuemper.

I agree that this team is about average and may be a playoff bubble team next year. But the playoffs are not the regular season and we have a very long way to go if we want to compete with (and beat) legitimate contenders like COL, Vegas, STL etc over a 7 game series

After adding Hall, we increased our goals for to 2.83 per game. From 2.6 to 2.83 is about a 9% increase in goals scored per game. Our problem was that while the offense increased its output some, the defense decreased its ability to not allow goals by a lot. Not just a lot, but by a huge amount. We were at 2.31 GA per game through 28 games and finished with 2.61 GA. This means in the last 42 games, we were about 3.00 GA per game, maybe slightly higher, like 3.03. That's like a 30% jump, correct? 0.7 additional goals per game change.

If the defense that showed up in the first 28 games shows up in the last 42, we are likely in the round robin, if not very close. We were broken down by other teams that new how to attack us, and we didn't respond on defense, for sure. We responded a little bit on offense, but not enough to overcome that.

 

[PainForShane]

After adding Hall, we increased our goals for to 2.83 per game. From 2.6 to 2.83 is about a 9% increase in goals scored per game. Our problem was that while the offense increased its output some, the defense decreased its ability to not allow goals by a lot. Not just a lot, but by a huge amount. We were at 2.31 GA per game through 28 games and finished with 2.61 GA. This means in the last 42 games, we were about 3.00 GA per game, maybe slightly higher, like 3.03. That's like a 30% jump, correct? 0.7 additional goals per game change.

If the defense that showed up in the first 28 games shows up in the last 42, we are likely in the round robin, if not very close. We were broken down by other teams that new how to attack us, and we didn't respond on defense, for sure. We responded a little bit on offense, but not enough to overcome that.

Playoffs are not the regular season. In this case we weren't broken down by 'teams' we were broken down by Colorado.

The playoffs are where any team's weaknesses are exposed. To say we were exposed by Colorado is the understatement of the year, one weakness was offense where outside of gm2, we did far worse than anyone could have reasonably predicted.

So no, Hall didn't solve our offensive woes. He gave us a little more offense during the regular season, enough to get to the dance and get thrashed by a far superior team. When it mattered, our offense went dry for entire periods (maybe even entire games) at a time.

And Hall? He's far from the only person to blame but he had 2 points (1G 1A) in the entire Colorado series, and that goal was an empty netter. IMO Hall is a top tier player but our offensive problems go beyond what we can reasonably expect any one person to solve

edit: Hall's production in col series

 

[BUX7PHX]

Playoffs are not the regular season. In this case we weren't broken down by 'teams' we were broken down by Colorado.

The playoffs are where any team's weaknesses are exposed. To say we were exposed by Colorado is the understatement of the year, one weakness was offense where outside of gm2, we did far worse than anyone could have reasonably predicted.

So no, Hall didn't solve our offensive woes. He gave us a little more offense during the regular season, enough to get to the dance and get thrashed by a far superior team. When it mattered, our offense went dry for entire periods (maybe even entire games) at a time.

And Hall? He's far from the only person to blame but he had 2 points (1G 1A) in the entire Colorado series, and that goal was an empty netter. IMO Hall is a top tier player but our offensive problems go beyond what we can reasonably expect any one person to solve

edit: Hall's production in col series

The last two paragraphs explain exactly why we need a new coach. Hall is but one cog in the machine, albeit the strongest one. Teams, in general, would figure out ways to beat us. We saw some of those weaknesses exposed against Nashville. Were any of those weaknesses things that we had not expected over the year? If all of a sudden, we were broken down by an Avs team that made major changes to how they played against us, that is one story. But, these were not major changes made by the opposition to force an unproductive series out of Hall, or any other player, for that matter. This was a full-blown "we lack the ability to prepare for what teams throw at us." That is on a coach to prepare his team.

 

[Jakey53]

Playoffs are not the regular season. In this case we weren't broken down by 'teams' we were broken down by Colorado.

The playoffs are where any team's weaknesses are exposed. To say we were exposed by Colorado is the understatement of the year, one weakness was offense where outside of gm2, we did far worse than anyone could have reasonably predicted.

So no, Hall didn't solve our offensive woes. He gave us a little more offense during the regular season, enough to get to the dance and get thrashed by a far superior team. When it mattered, our offense went dry for entire periods (maybe even entire games) at a time.

And Hall? He's far from the only person to blame but he had 2 points (1G 1A) in the entire Colorado series, and that goal was an empty netter. IMO Hall is a top tier player but our offensive problems go beyond what we can reasonably expect any one person to solve

edit: Hall's production in col series

Bingo. In fact, we would have missed the playoffs with Hall. Colorado were zeroing in on Hall, OEL and Garland.

 

[Jakey53]

After adding Hall, we increased our goals for to 2.83 per game. From 2.6 to 2.83 is about a 9% increase in goals scored per game. Our problem was that while the offense increased its output some, the defense decreased its ability to not allow goals by a lot. Not just a lot, but by a huge amount. We were at 2.31 GA per game through 28 games and finished with 2.61 GA. This means in the last 42 games, we were about 3.00 GA per game, maybe slightly higher, like 3.03. That's like a 30% jump, correct? 0.7 additional goals per game change.

If the defense that showed up in the first 28 games shows up in the last 42, we are likely in the round robin, if not very close. We were broken down by other teams that new how to attack us, and we didn't respond on defense, for sure. We responded a little bit on offense, but not enough to overcome that.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda. The end result is all that matters. There has to be an attitude adjustment on this team, and that starts with the coach. If Hall is here next year and we have RT as coach, we are still likely to miss the playoffs, or maybe a bubble team.

 

[BUX7PHX]

Woulda, coulda, shoulda. The end result is all that matters. There has to be an attitude adjustment on this team, and that starts with the coach. If Hall is here next year and we have RT as coach, we are still likely to miss the playoffs, or maybe a bubble team.

I don't disagree. Tocchet fooled us more than Chayka, in my eyes.

We gave him the benefit of the doubt after the 20 game opening shitshow that was his first season. We played better at the end of the season, so we all got a little more on that hype train.

We then settled into the next season. Made a trade that doesn't look any worse or better, but injuries hit. Yet, we still stayed in the hunt. Gave us hope.

We start this year a little slow, but not slow like we did the last two seasons. We know the debacle of 17-18. Didn't it take us our 7th period to score in 18-19? This year, we looked like we were playing faster, even if things were not perfect. Suddenly, we start to look the part on the ice more and more through November. Yes, we had a good goalie. Even if our goalie plays well, we still have to provide the goal support. Then we find ourselves in the conversation of hanging around with the better teams and finishing in the top 3 of the Pacific. That coincides with us adding Hall.

How we wound up worse when everything is pointing to some sort of upward trend from our coaching staff is beyond me.

 

[Jakey53]

I don't disagree. Tocchet fooled us more than Chayka, in my eyes.

We gave him the benefit of the doubt after the 20 game opening shitshow that was his first season. We played better at the end of the season, so we all got a little more on that hype train.

We then settled into the next season. Made a trade that doesn't look any worse or better, but injuries hit. Yet, we still stayed in the hunt. Gave us hope.

We start this year a little slow, but not slow like we did the last two seasons. We know the debacle of 17-18. Didn't it take us our 7th period to score in 18-19? This year, we looked like we were playing faster, even if things were not perfect. Suddenly, we start to look the part on the ice more and more through November. Yes, we had a good goalie. Even if our goalie plays well, we still have to provide the goal support. Then we find ourselves in the conversation of hanging around with the better teams and finishing in the top 3 of the Pacific. That coincides with us adding Hall.

How we wound up worse when everything is pointing to some sort of upward trend from our coaching staff is beyond me.

No worries, it will be rinse and repeat next year. I don't see RT being fired. I would have fired him the day after we lost. Him and his coaching staff. I sure hope our owner has been interviewing GM's because this will be a short off season and whoever we get has to come in with his feet running. Oh, wait, we Sullivan, like I said, rinse and repeat.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

After adding Hall, we increased our goals for to 2.83 per game. From 2.6 to 2.83 is about a 9% increase in goals scored per game. Our problem was that while the offense increased its output some, the defense decreased its ability to not allow goals by a lot. Not just a lot, but by a huge amount. We were at 2.31 GA per game through 28 games and finished with 2.61 GA. This means in the last 42 games, we were about 3.00 GA per game, maybe slightly higher, like 3.03. That's like a 30% jump, correct? 0.7 additional goals per game change.

If the defense that showed up in the first 28 games shows up in the last 42, we are likely in the round robin, if not very close. We were broken down by other teams that new how to attack us, and we didn't respond on defense, for sure. We responded a little bit on offense, but not enough to overcome that.

Complete two way game - very difficult.

 

[azcanuck]

The Coyotes were only in contention because of Darcy. He stood on his head.
The Coyotes are a super soft team that was put together in a terrible way. Too many little soft guys that simply cant thrive in the playoffs.
Every team in the NHL would be licking their chops to play the Yotes. They know they'd be bruise free .
This is not on RT in any way. I think he's a good coach. He just needs a better mix of players.
And Hall is GONE!!

 

[MIGs Dog]

The Coyotes were only in contention because of Darcy. He stood on his head.
The Coyotes are a super soft team that was put together in a terrible way. Too many little soft guys that simply cant thrive in the playoffs.
Every team in the NHL would be licking their chops to play the Yotes. They know they'd be bruise free .
This is not on RT in any way. I think he's a good coach. He just needs a better mix of players.
And Hall is GONE!!

Agree that this team is not built for the playoffs, but I think relieving the HC of any responsibility is misplaced. He's not getting the most out of the talent we have. As far as RT being a good coach, it's hard to determine from the objective evidence.