Confirmed with Link: Wayne Simmonds traded to Nashville for Ryan Hartman + conditional 4th

Magua

Doer of Hoffific Things
Apr 25, 2016
37,157
154,047
Huron of the Lakes
Fletcher explicitly said he wanted an NHL return, that he turned down futures offers. That’s not hard to decipher. It also limits the value of return.

Hartman had 3rd line production this year at ES if you look at all forwards....and was 1 point away from being 2nd line at ES. It's sad, but true.

If he plays on the 3rd line this year, so be it. Ideally, we add and also Frost makes it pushing him to 4th line.

And Laughton was a few hundredths away from him. While I think Hartman is slightly better, I doubt anyone is calling Laughton borderline 2nd line and content with him as a 3rd liner.

It was 19 games. Hartman’s points/60 in his Nashville tenure was closer to 1.4 fwiw.
 

Tripod

I hate this team
Aug 12, 2008
78,743
86,024
Nova Scotia
Fletcher explicitly said he wanted an NHL return, that he turned down futures offers. That’s not hard to decipher. It also limits the value of return.



And Laughton was a few hundredths away from him. While I think Hartman is slightly better, I doubt anyone is calling Laughton borderline 2nd line and content with him as a 3rd liner.

It was 19 games. Hartman’s points/60 in his Nashville tenure was closer to 1.4 fwiw.
oh I agree. I was simply pointing out where the actual cutoff is when it comes to 2nd and 3rd line production. It's not as high as most think...as this shows.

None of us want those 2 on the 2nd line....and ideally hope they are on the 4th line due to better options. Those 2 and Raffl on the 4th line getting 25-30 ES points a year would be a massive upgrade over past few year. And when injuries occur, can move up and actually produce.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ironmanrulez

FLYguy3911

Sanheim Lover
Oct 19, 2006
52,627
85,321
And yet certain people were fine with re-signing Raffl instead of trading him. Is that not the same thing?
Who said that? I don’t recall anyone saying not to trade Raffl. People were fine with the signing after the deadline. It was as an extremely low risk move for a solid, unspectacular player. If anything, I think Raffl signing for what he signed for shows just how much of a dime a dozen player Hartman is and that you were probably better off playing the lottery ticket game. Right now Raffl > Hartman imo.

In a perfect world you trade Raffl and circle back to him July 1. But we don’t know what offers were on the table and Raffl is not a guy that you shop for months (years) like Simmonds. He’s a last minute trade and who knows what that market was like. And the team thought they could still compete so they hung on to him (not that I agreed).

I know it’s hard to separate what Simmonds was in Nashville and what his trade value was around the league this year, but I refuse to believe that the best that he could return was a 4th line player who is going to need a new contract and a conditional 4th in 2020. It’d be pretty nice to have another top 60 pick going into the summer - either to draft another 18 year old or to give you some flexibility in trades. Just my two cents.
 

Ruck Over

When the revolution comes, pants will do you no gd
Apr 19, 2016
4,197
3,323
Philadelphia, Pa
And yet certain people were fine with re-signing Raffl instead of trading him. Is that not the same thing?
Slightly different, we already had Raffl, and knew what he was about. There weren't any rumors, so it depends on the pick, but Raffl would always return less than Simmonds. So resigning Raffl was protection against another Weise/VdV/Lehtera addition. Whereas Simmonds was supposed to be the last "easy" trade for futures of worth. Getting Hartman, a Raffl comparable does not qualify as futures of worth, although he is under cap friendly control for a few years more. (As is Raffl on the team friendly re-sign.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ironmanrulez

MacDonald4MVP

Registered User
May 7, 2016
9,931
5,269
Brassard going for the third would be a smart choice for preds with their shitty center depth, but they were lacking grittensity vacated by Rindros and traded for Simmonds as a quick fix. However simmer got hurt and so intangible amounts of grittensity never materialized.
 

The Madrigal

Registered User
Apr 26, 2016
9,172
6,453
In a simulation
I would rather have Hartman than a late second round pick. I just don't get why so many people are so in love with draft picks. Most of those guys from the mid 2nd round on never pan out and even when they do it's typically about four years before they even debut in the NHL.

People can say Hartman is just a fourth liner and they might be 100% correct, but the fact of the matter is the Flyers fourth line has been absolute trash for a few years now. Having a guy like Hartman in that role who is young, cheap, and has had a 19 goal season before is a huge upgrade. Him, Laughton, and Raffl is the type of fourth line that playoff teams have and can actually rely upon to play in the playoffs.

So I guess it comes down to this question. Do you want a young high end fourth liner who can bring grit and 10-15 goals and also fill in on scoring lines when there are injuries. Or, do you want a late second round pick in a crowded prospect pool who may or may not have any impact at all, and if so not until 2023.
 

Ruck Over

When the revolution comes, pants will do you no gd
Apr 19, 2016
4,197
3,323
Philadelphia, Pa
I would rather have Hartman than a late second round pick. I just don't get why so many people are so in love with draft picks. Most of those guys from the mid 2nd round on never pan out and even when they do it's typically about four years before they even debut in the NHL.

People can say Hartman is just a fourth liner and they might be 100% correct, but the fact of the matter is the Flyers fourth line has been absolute trash for a few years now. Having a guy like Hartman in that role who is young, cheap, and has had a 19 goal season before is a huge upgrade. Him, Laughton, and Raffl is the type of fourth line that playoff teams have and can actually rely upon to play in the playoffs.

So I guess it comes down to this question. Do you want a young high end fourth liner who can bring grit and 10-15 goals and also fill in on scoring lines when there are injuries. Or, do you want a late second round pick in a crowded prospect pool who may or may not have any impact at all, and if so not until 2023.
Hmm, I look at it as, do I want Hartman, or a 2nd rd pick that is liquid, and rely on the draft picks I already have in the system for that 4th liner.

The evaluation is not done in a vacuum. Instead of Hartman, it could be Ruby, Voro, NAK, Bunny, Frost/Farabee. Not that all of those guys play right wing, but there are options. Plus that 2nd rd could be used to add a body, or traded away. I'm sure around the league, a 2nd rd will be easier to move, and return, or assist in returning more than Hartman.

Differences of opinion and all.

But I still agree Hartman + 4th > Simmonds.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ironmanrulez

The Madrigal

Registered User
Apr 26, 2016
9,172
6,453
In a simulation
Hmm, I look at it as, do I want Hartman, or a 2nd rd pick that is liquid, and rely on the draft picks I already have in the system for that 4th liner.

The evaluation is not done in a vacuum. Instead of Hartman, it could be Ruby, Voro, NAK, Bunny, Frost/Farabee. Not that all of those guys play right wing, but there are options. Plus that 2nd rd could be used to add a body, or traded away. I'm sure around the league, a 2nd rd will be easier to move, and return, or assist in returning more than Hartman.

Differences of opinion and all.

But I still agree Hartman + 4th > Simmonds.
Whether it ended up being Hartman and a 4th, or a 2nd and a 4th the return ultimately wasn't going to be very good. However, the return was right in line with the market and fair based on the fact that Simmonds isn't very good anymore. People saying that Fletcher was probably offered a first at some point and sat on it are out of their minds. The rest of the league saw exactly what we did the last two years.

The time to trade Simmonds was last off-season, where he was at least coming off of a 24 goal season and teams could have thought he would bounce back.

As far as Hartman versus the prospects you mentioned. None of those guys have proven anything. Hartman has a 19 goal season in his career, and two other double digit goal seasons. It's a bird in the hand with him. Also, I'm guessing if they chose to move him this summer they could probably get back a 2nd, and at the very least a 3rd.
 

Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
22,590
16,402
I really couldn’t care less if Fletcher decided he preferred Hartman & a 4th (possibly becoming a 3rd) over a late 2nd.

Hartman was still young & had shown enough to be both drafted with & traded for a late 1st, the latter occurring just one deadline ago.

Plus the team was losing a longtime core player & still had an outside chance to make the playoffs, & the guy they added was an improvement over who they gave up.

I absolutely can’t get worked up over choosing Hartman & a 4th instead of a mid-50s pick that we don’t even know was offered & if so for what year.
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
49,215
21,617
I'm not convinced it was Hartman v 2nd rd pick, I suspect no one was offering a 2nd rd pick, and Nashville wanted to move Hartman if they added Simmonds for roster and cap reasons.
So it was probably more like 2 3rd rd picks v Hartman and a cond 4th.

Fletcher preferred Hartman over a late 3rd rd pick when he already had 2 going into this draft.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LorneMalvo

Tripod

I hate this team
Aug 12, 2008
78,743
86,024
Nova Scotia
Last 25 drafts, Robert Hagg is the Flyers BEST 2nd round pick excluding Hart. Let that sink in for a second.

Next best, Nodl. Hell, after Hagg and Nodl...no other non goalie we have taken in the 2nd round the last 25 years, has played more than 15 games.

If anything, a 2nd is best used to try and move back into the 1s round.
 

Tripod

I hate this team
Aug 12, 2008
78,743
86,024
Nova Scotia
It's weird to see the hae Hartman is getting. He has gotten 26, 31 and 31 points.....mostly at ES and except 1 year, playing in the bottom 6.

That's what our #2 overall pick is producing. Or Lindblom. Hell...more than Simmonds the last 2 years.

We traded a 3rd liner on an expiring contract, for another 3rd liner under control and a possible 3rd...now a 4th. You would swear the sky is falling. And like it or not, right now he is our #3RW. Hopefully we do add this summer to have a good 4th line again.
 

Magua

Doer of Hoffific Things
Apr 25, 2016
37,157
154,047
Huron of the Lakes
Last 25 drafts, Robert Hagg is the Flyers BEST 2nd round pick excluding Hart. Let that sink in for a second.

*snip*

If anything, a 2nd is best used to try and move back into the 1st round.

I mean......the last 25 drafts is a weird sample size given turnover. Who cares about 25 drafts ago? They've taken Ratcliffe, Hart, and Allison their last 3 drafts in the 2nd round. I highly doubt Hagg is the BEST, even excluding Hart, who I'm not sure why we are excluding.

The Flyers have taken great players in every single round of the draft these last handful of years. There's no bad juju with the 2nd round. They've done fine there. There's nothing that says they can't take a good player there again, unless they want to harp on "types" and "roles" a la Ginning.

It's always good to package picks, if you have a bunch, and move up to draft your guy. Doesn't have to be the 1st round -- that's not exactly easy to achieve. I don't know why all the people who want to trade picks for NHL talent can't acknowledge that liquid assets can be cashed in otherwise than calling a name on draft day.
 

TCTC

Registered User
Mar 25, 2013
13,073
9,561
It's weird to see the hae Hartman is getting. He has gotten 26, 31 and 31 points.....mostly at ES and except 1 year, playing in the bottom 6.

That's what our #2 overall pick is producing. Or Lindblom. Hell...more than Simmonds the last 2 years.

We traded a 3rd liner on an expiring contract, for another 3rd liner under control and a possible 3rd...now a 4th. You would swear the sky is falling. And like it or not, right now he is our #3RW. Hopefully we do add this summer to have a good 4th line again.
He's a solid bottom 6 player who's shown that he can fill in in the top 6 if needed. He's still young, he's a good skater, he has decent hands, he isn't overpaid, he can play both wings, he's tough as nails, he can get under opponents skin. What more could we want from a bottom 6 player?
 

Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
22,590
16,402
It's weird to see the hae Hartman is getting. He has gotten 26, 31 and 31 points.....mostly at ES and except 1 year, playing in the bottom 6.

That's what our #2 overall pick is producing. Or Lindblom. Hell...more than Simmonds the last 2 years.

We traded a 3rd liner on an expiring contract, for another 3rd liner under control and a possible 3rd...now a 4th. You would swear the sky is falling. And like it or not, right now he is our #3RW. Hopefully we do add this summer to have a good 4th line again.
Reminds me of an old woman staring out her window spying on & complaining about the neighbors because she has nothing better to do.

“Now why on Earth is she planting azaleas instead of begonias? Everyone knows if she sells the house one day more buyers will like begonias!”
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Madrigal

Tripod

I hate this team
Aug 12, 2008
78,743
86,024
Nova Scotia
I mean......the last 25 drafts is a weird sample size given turnover. Who cares about 25 drafts ago? They've taken Ratcliffe, Hart, and Allison their last 3 drafts in the 2nd round. I highly doubt Hagg is the BEST, even excluding Hart, who I'm not sure why we are excluding.

The Flyers have taken great players in every single round of the draft these last handful of years. There's no bad juju with the 2nd round. They've done fine there. There's nothing that says they can't take a good player there again, unless they want to harp on "types" and "roles" a la Ginning.

It's always good to package picks, if you have a bunch, and move up to draft your guy. Doesn't have to be the 1st round -- that's not exactly easy to achieve. I don't know why all the people who want to trade picks for NHL talent can't acknowledge that liquid assets can be cashed in otherwise than calling a name on draft day.
the 25 years came from me looking to see who our 2nd rounders were....and it kept going back and back with years of yuck.

Ratcliffe....didn't Stizzle just say to pump the breaks on him and someone(not sure who) saying he most likely is a 3rd liner who gets 30 points. We that is what Hartman has been, is it not? I guess Ratcliffe still has that new package on him so that makes a difference.

Allison look great 2 years ago before injuries have taken over and his unwillingness to leave college. If he has a shit year, he likely will look to sign. If he plays great, he likely looks elsewhere. Great spot to be in for us.

Hart...ok...don't exclude him. Hagg is still been the 2nd most successful 2nd round pick the last 25 years for us so far. Feel better? lol.

We all know you can get good players in the 2nd...or in any round. You just have to be the team to get them. But some people are so afraid to "waste" a pick instead of taking a sure thing. Hartman is a 3rd liner. Fletch took the guaranteed thing for now. And if/when guys like NAK, Allison, Farafee, etc... prove better, he will get shuffled down, and then eventually moved.

And hey, we still have the 4th rounder so let's go find someone great!!!! Our most successful 4th rounder the last 25 year is Tye McGinn and his 17 career points ;)
 

The Madrigal

Registered User
Apr 26, 2016
9,172
6,453
In a simulation
Second round picks in the NHL might just be the most overrated asset in all of sports. The fact is that most of them don't work out. Ryan Hartman is a cheap, young, 10-15 goal/25-30 point winger. The chances of the Flyers getting a similar player (let alone better) to him with a late second round pick is unlikely. It wasn't some great trade by any means but under the circumstances Fletcher did ok. Simmonds is close to finished and the rest of the league realized that.
 

dats81

Registered User
Jan 22, 2011
5,655
1,579
Carinthia, AUT
Second round picks in the NHL might just be the most overrated asset in all of sports. The fact is that most of them don't work out. Ryan Hartman is a cheap, young, 10-15 goal/25-30 point winger. The chances of the Flyers getting a similar player (let alone better) to him with a late second round pick is unlikely. It wasn't some great trade by any means but under the circumstances Fletcher did ok. Simmonds is close to finished and the rest of the league realized that.

Definitely the most frustrating round of picks: lots of prospects with enough upside to raise expectations but 9 out of 10 times all you get after waiting for countless years is tweaners with major holes in their games and/or character issues.

The fanbase treats them differently, of course. Through rose-colored glasses all of them look like studs.
 

Rebels57

Former Flyers fan
Sponsor
Sep 28, 2014
76,369
122,653
It's weird to see the hae Hartman is getting. He has gotten 26, 31 and 31 points.....mostly at ES and except 1 year, playing in the bottom 6.

That's what our #2 overall pick is producing. Or Lindblom. Hell...more than Simmonds the last 2 years.

We traded a 3rd liner on an expiring contract, for another 3rd liner under control and a possible 3rd...now a 4th. You would swear the sky is falling. And like it or not, right now he is our #3RW. Hopefully we do add this summer to have a good 4th line again.

Would rather have a 2nd to use in a trade this summer and rightfully promote Aube-Kubel to 4RW, than have Hartman and his penchant for ill-timed penalties.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->