"Watered Down" OHL

[MatthewsMoustache]

So then your issue is with the team, not the city...

Both play a factor. You can have a bad location but if you can put people in seats and put some good teams out every 2-3 years I don't see an issue. Ex. Owen Sound, Erie, Soo.

North Bay hasn't done either in 5 years give or take by the time 2021-22 starts and I don't see them competing with Barrie, Niagara or Kingston in the East in that season either.

 

[OHLTG]

Both play a factor. You can have a bad location but if you can put people in seats and put some good teams out every 2-3 years I don't see an issue. Ex. Owen Sound, Erie, Soo.

North Bay hasn't done either in 5 years give or take by the time 2021-22 starts and I don't see them competing with Barrie, Niagara or Kingston in the East in that season either.

They've been competitive, which is what counts. Save for their rebuild last season, they've been around .500, or better, for the most part. Their attendance hasn't been bad, either. Last year was 2000-and-change, but they've been 2300-2600 the last few years, and 3000+ before that. Point is - NB isn't a bad spot, either the team or the city.

 

[Otto]

Going by the criteria set out by some i this thread the 4 teams that should be contracted are in no particular order

Guelph, Sudbury, Peterborough, Mississauga

 

[OHLTG]

The whole idea of contraction seems odd right now. You'd have to do one per conference to make it work. Miss and Erie? Miss and Sarnia?

 

[Otto]

The whole idea of contraction seems odd right now. You'd have to do one per conference to make it work. Miss and Erie? Miss and Sarnia?

The notion of contraction is ridiculous. As it stands now 80% of the teams make the playoffs. What do people want? 89% 100%?? Or fewer that 16 teams? Nobody wants to see byes in the playoffs

 

[sbpointer]

Contraction doesn't make any sense to me. I think Mississauga needs to find a new home but other than that I think the league is generally supported.
Did Hamilton get their arena deal done? If not they might need to make a move too.

 

[OMG67]

They've been competitive, which is what counts. Save for their rebuild last season, they've been around .500, or better, for the most part. Their attendance hasn't been bad, either. Last year was 2000-and-change, but they've been 2300-2600 the last few years, and 3000+ before that. Point is - NB isn't a bad spot, either the team or the city.

Sorry but that attendance isn’t good enough in a place like that. Correct me if I am wrong because I have not been in the rink since they did the Reno, but I don’t believe they have private suites.

In today’s OHL, it is really tough to make a proper go of it with 2500 in the stands. If you do have that number, you need the higher priced Club seats and private boxes. In addition, you need dedicated corporate sponsorship and North Bay is super small and more than likely struggles in that area.

I think to do the bare minimum in the OHL you need about 2500 to break even if you are in a good geographic zone to reduce travel costs. That doesn’t help contribute to expanded scholarships, advanced player development coaches and consultants etc.

I’m not saying that there should be contraction. What I am saying is some teams are behind the 8 ball quite a bit financially which gives them less freedom to spend on advanced player development compared to other franchises. This does create a value gap from a player perspective. That gap is clearly seen by players and is highlighted as a reason why many players prefer to avoid certain franchises.

 

[OMG67]

Contraction doesn't make any sense to me. I think Mississauga needs to find a new home but other than that I think the league is generally supported.
Did Hamilton get their arena deal done? If not they might need to make a move too.

I guess the challenge is where they move to that is better?

There are a few cities that can support the program but don’t have the facility to support it.

That is what is so unfortunate about Mississauga and Brampton. Both have great facilities but the fan base is trash. If those two spots had worked as well as anticipated, I doubt we’d be having as much discussion.

I do think Hamilton or that area in general will end up with a rink in a similar fashion as happened in Niagara. I like Andlauer. I think he is an asset to the league and hope he can work something out.

 

[OMG67]

Going by the criteria set out by some i this thread the 4 teams that should be contracted are in no particular order

Guelph, Sudbury, Peterborough, Mississauga

I agree that contraction isn’t the answer. I think if the league has player acquisition issues, they can expand OA and Import spots and easily make up any talent gap.

I do think the rise in USA hockey will have the largest impact on talent pool growth in the OHL. The OHL needs to find a better way of attracting that talent though. Either way, it won’t matter. The more high end US players there are, the less their programs will want to bring in Canadian players. The question would be whether the US programs expand to meet the growth of US hockey.

 

[OMG67]

With respect to advanced skill development, I’d like to see the league enter into contracts with skills coaching organizations/companies and have it paid for at the league level. I think all players should have access to the same level of off ice skills development and training.

For example, I know many players/teams point to the tremendous work Barb Underhill does with skating. Instead of individual teams booking and paying for that coaching, I believe the league should supply some of that to help even the playing field and lessen the gap in advanced coaching/development from team to team.

 

[OHLTG]

Sorry but that attendance isn’t good enough in a place like that. Correct me if I am wrong because I have not been in the rink since they did the Reno, but I don’t believe they have private suites.

In today’s OHL, it is really tough to make a proper go of it with 2500 in the stands. If you do have that number, you need the higher priced Club seats and private boxes. In addition, you need dedicated corporate sponsorship and North Bay is super small and more than likely struggles in that area.

I think to do the bare minimum in the OHL you need about 2500 to break even if you are in a good geographic zone to reduce travel costs. That doesn’t help contribute to expanded scholarships, advanced player development coaches and consultants etc.

I’m not saying that there should be contraction. What I am saying is some teams are behind the 8 ball quite a bit financially which gives them less freedom to spend on advanced player development compared to other franchises. This does create a value gap from a player perspective. That gap is clearly seen by players and is highlighted as a reason why many players prefer to avoid certain franchises.

North Bay Memorial Gardens have 10 suites available for games. They're also close to other franchises in the mid-2000s. Do they have it as easy as other franchises? No. They're not going to have the money of the Knights or Rangers, for instance. That doesn't mean they can't compete, though, and they've proven that over the years. Not every player wants the big lights, either. If I was going into the OHL, I'd be thrilled to play for a team like NB, SSM, Sudbury, etc.

 

[member 71782]

Zero....

Teams failure isn't up tot the league to correct.. it's up to the teams..

Last ten seasons with playoffs, OK.

Last ten seasons including this one, whether a season is played or not let's start with Windsor.

Last time they made it out of the first round was 2010/11. They've won less than (?) ten playoff games since.

So while last season no playoffs they did drop from first to sixth in the conference, did nothing to support their roster and were trending downwards at a pretty quick pace so in all likelyhood they would not have gotten out of the first round last season.

This season, they did nothing to improve their roster at last year's deadline, their stock of tradable assets dwindled with the draft leaving them a couple of second, a third and some fourths and of course with limited assets, a few open spots to fill with fewer players signed, including their top three from this past draft they would have been using assets to fill a full roster for the upcoming season. Likely headed for another sixth place finish with few assets to support any additions and out in the first round again.

Yes in 2009/10 and 2010/11 they won a league championship and lost in the conference finals respectively but have done nothing of note in the playoffs beyond a seven game exit against London in 2017.

 

[Otto]

Last ten seasons with playoffs, OK.

Last ten seasons including this one, whether a season is played or not let's start with Windsor.

Last time they made it out of the first round was 2010/11. They've won less than (?) ten playoff games since.

So while last season no playoffs they did drop from first to sixth in the conference, did nothing to support their roster and were trending downwards at a pretty quick pace so in all likelyhood they would not have gotten out of the first round last season.

This season, they did nothing to improve their roster at last year's deadline, their stock of tradable assets dwindled with the draft leaving them a couple of second, a third and some fourths and of course with limited assets, a few open spots to fill with fewer players signed, including their top three from this past draft they would have been using assets to fill a full roster for the upcoming season. Likely headed for another sixth place finish with few assets to support any additions and out in the first round again.

Yes in 2009/10 and 2010/11 they won a league championship and lost in the conference finals respectively but have done nothing of note in the playoffs beyond a seven game exit against London in 2017.

So why should the rest of the league have to prop up the Spitfires? They need to get their shit together or get someone in there who can

 

[member 71782]

I am not saying I agree with your recommendations but for arguments sake, which four teams would be eliminated?

To me, it should be based on ability to generate revenue. My four:
1> Hamilton
2> North Bay
3> Mississauga
4> Erie

Hamilton has a great owner. They just can’t find a suitable building. If they could work out a way to shift the Sarnia or Flint ownership to Andlauer, that might be a solid move.

North Bay is a waste of time. Population of 50k and not a heck of a lot around it. It’s not a strategic location either. They Reno’d the rink but it is still a very basic rink that pretty much only generates revenue from ticket sales

Erie is the same as North Bay with a lot of the same challenges. I like the Otters though and wouldn’t want to see them go. The one potential saving grace is they are in Pennsylvania and it may attract a few extra players to the league.

Mississauga has been a failure as a location since day one. Nice rink with the ability to generate revenue but I doubt they would be able to make a go of it with any significant consequence.

Again, I am not arguing for contraction but if they did, that would be my suggestion.

It has to be a combination of generating revenue/attendance, proven ability to develop talent and organizational stability.

Obviously the first two lead to organizational stability.

The first part of contraction, eliminate the four most inept ownership groups. A location will never succeed if ownership is not willing to invest.

Next look at the fan support of all locations and look to move to other locations be it a current one with a poor ownership group or a completely new location.

Mississauga has been a complete failure for the league as a location. Regardless of ownership there is very little fan support.

North Bay I think is going to continue to struggle. Limited population base, a location that needed guarantees to get the team to relocate, what happens when those guarantees expire?

Erie has been on the right track much of the last decade so not sure about them, ownership or location. They have their slow start in attendance to start the most seasons then they pick up. Ownership has shown a willingness to invest in the team so I don't think they would be an issue.

Hamilton I agree with solid ownership and poor support from local government. Fan support itself seems to be there for the most part so the potential threat could get them the local government support they need. There are far worse ownership groups that could be replaced elsewhere with a much more competent one.

In the end obviously we as fans would have no say if contraction ever did happen, no I do not expect it to happen since very few owners would want to foot the bill and if it did happen it would be teams going under on their own. There's some current owners who won't invest in their own teams let alone ways to improve the league if it requires them reaching into their own pockets. Branch was like Bettman, chased revenue for owners that was based on an immediate return, expansion without a plan to sustain that revenue or concern about what the results would be on the product down the road.

As more and more of the top kids pursue other opportunities over the OHL/CHL it's hard to maintain the mantra of being the best development league around when the best kids won't report to some teams or any teams in certain circumstances. To be the best you need to have the best players around.

 

[member 71782]

So why should the rest of the league have to prop up the Spitfires? They need to get their shit together or get someone in there who can

Do you think I disagree with that sentiment?

As one of the more vocal ones on the Windsor thread as I'm sure you're aware of when it comes to the inept handling of this franchise over the last ten years plus it's time Windsor gets a competent group to run things.

Maybe we could see through contraction Windsor ownership being replaced with a more competent group who is dealing with other issues in their current market. I wouldn't be against that.

 

[Otto]

Do you think I disagree with that sentiment?

As one of the more vocal ones on the Windsor thread as I'm sure you're aware of when it comes to the inept handling of this franchise over the last ten years plus it's time Windsor gets a competent group to run things.

Maybe we could see through contraction Windsor ownership being replaced with a more competent group who is dealing with other issues in their current market. I wouldn't be against that.

I'm still not understanding your point... Windsor management sucks.. so because of that 4 other teams should fold and teams should lose revenue be eliminating a home game and an entire round of the playoffs?

I think the easier solution is to just move the Spits. It's not like the citizens of Windsor want a team anyway

 

[OMG67]

North Bay Memorial Gardens have 10 suites available for games. They're also close to other franchises in the mid-2000s. Do they have it as easy as other franchises? No. They're not going to have the money of the Knights or Rangers, for instance. That doesn't mean they can't compete, though, and they've proven that over the years. Not every player wants the big lights, either. If I was going into the OHL, I'd be thrilled to play for a team like NB, SSM, Sudbury, etc.

Yeah. I wasn’t aware of the private boxes there. As I said, I hadn’t been there since the Reno.

It isn’t about the bright lights. It is about a commitment to player development and if you were to look at what Ottawa is doing in that respect, you would understand what I am talking about.

Some junior teams only option is the old school way of development because that is all the $$$ they have.

1> Practise at 4pm
2> Review Game tape
3> Hit the weight room
The end

That isn’t going to cut it anymore. Some teams cannot afford the staff/consultants required to up their player development program.

 

[OMG67]

Last ten seasons with playoffs, OK.

Last ten seasons including this one, whether a season is played or not let's start with Windsor.

Last time they made it out of the first round was 2010/11. They've won less than (?) ten playoff games since.

So while last season no playoffs they did drop from first to sixth in the conference, did nothing to support their roster and were trending downwards at a pretty quick pace so in all likelyhood they would not have gotten out of the first round last season.

This season, they did nothing to improve their roster at last year's deadline, their stock of tradable assets dwindled with the draft leaving them a couple of second, a third and some fourths and of course with limited assets, a few open spots to fill with fewer players signed, including their top three from this past draft they would have been using assets to fill a full roster for the upcoming season. Likely headed for another sixth place finish with few assets to support any additions and out in the first round again.

Yes in 2009/10 and 2010/11 they won a league championship and lost in the conference finals respectively but have done nothing of note in the playoffs beyond a seven game exit against London in 2017.

This is more about having the ability to generate revenue to pay for the player development etc. Windsor has a facility and a population base that should allow for high levels of success. If a team has the tangible components and are unable to achieve success, that is on the ownership not making the proper staffing decisions.

 

[OHLTG]

If what a team does is working for them, I'm not about to question it... as long as it's within the rules and such.

 

[Otto]

It has to be a combination of generating revenue/attendance, proven ability to develop talent and organizational stability.

Again.. reading this the Spitfires should be the first to go.. you've already talked about their lack of ability to develop talent and lack of organizational stability.. their attendance keeps falling

 

[OHLTG]

I think the easier solution is to just move the Spits. It's not like the citizens of Windsor want a team anyway

"Bowler should have made a dozen deals!! They're STILL not playing hockey in April!! Good... I can spend my money elsewhere!!" The list goes on and on and on. Thank goodness this place is in the minority. Too much is taken for granted in life, including the OHL.

 

[OMG67]

Again.. reading this the Spitfires should be the first to go.. you've already talked about their lack of ability to develop talent and lack of organizational stability.. their attendance keeps falling

There is a difference between ejecting a franchise and ejecting an inept ownership group.

I know what you are saying but at the same time, some spots make it extremely difficult to achieve results with a standard approach.

Owen Sound has done a tremendous job promoting their program but the reality is they’ve managed to invest well in management decisions. They’ve had some high level hockey exec’s in there.

Some other smaller towns are doing ok. Barrie, Peterborough and Sudbury are solid examples. Sarnia on the other hand has been poor. I don’t understand that team. In the early years when Ottawa would do the Windsor-Detroit/Plymouth-Sarnia-London four game trip, the Sarnia ticket was always the really tough ticket to get. The other three were game day purchases with zero issue.

Kingston has been continually disappointing. The owner there is trash but the facility and fan base is solid. By fan base, I mean potential.

 

[OHLTG]

Windsor's always been the off-and-on city with attendance. I remember going to Windsor Arena with 1600 fans on a Sunday afternoon. I also remember packing that Barn with 4,100 some nights. It had nothing to do with ownership; Riolo wasn't a great owner but the team was entertaining. Mind you, this was 20+ years ago, so mentalities have changed a bit now. It's currently more "show me the wins, I'll show you the money."

 

[Otto]

There is a difference between ejecting a franchise and ejecting an inept ownership group.

I know what you are saying but at the same time, some spots make it extremely difficult to achieve results with a standard approach.

Owen Sound has done a tremendous job promoting their program but the reality is they’ve managed to invest well in management decisions. They’ve had some high level hockey exec’s in there.

Some other smaller towns are doing ok. Barrie, Peterborough and Sudbury are solid examples. Sarnia on the other hand has been poor. I don’t understand that team. In the early years when Ottawa would do the Windsor-Detroit/Plymouth-Sarnia-London four game trip, the Sarnia ticket was always the really tough ticket to get. The other three were game day purchases with zero issue.

Kingston has been continually disappointing. The owner there is trash but the facility and fan base is solid. By fan base, I mean potential.

Going by the criteria laid out by cfaub I don't see how anyone could make a case for Windsor staying in a scenario of 4 team contraction. Trash ownership ( according to the fans) perpetually poor performance and the largest decrease in attendance over their 10 year average in the league.

 

[windsor7]

Windsor's always been the off-and-on city with attendance. I remember going to Windsor Arena with 1600 fans on a Sunday afternoon. I also remember packing that Barn with 4,100 some nights. It had nothing to do with ownership; Riolo wasn't a great owner but the team was entertaining. Mind you, this was 20+ years ago, so mentalities have changed a bit now. It's currently more "show me the wins, I'll show you the money."

People shouldnt have to fork over money for average or below average product...