OT: Washington Redskins 2020 Season Thread Vol 8: The Offseason

[CapitalsCupReality]

Every single post by you, @EroCaps in this thread (and it’s not hyperbole, it’s literally all of them, save maybe two or three) are about your “disdain” — we can use that instead of “hate”, maybe that’s more mature? — for Haskins and he will absolutely fail because 6 games his rookie season he looked bad. We get it. We all get it.

You have driven your opinion home. Over and over and over. Can we discuss some other things around this team?

@CaptainAmerica is nearing the same level. Maybe IM each other and bash away, as it seems to be something you need to do.

Excessively. So maybe leave the “high school” comments out of this? Or perhaps that’s how non high schoolers opine — by beating the same drum over and over and over again

hate, disgusted by, whatever, they’ve made up their minds without giving the guy a fair shake IMO.

This is on a Rivera......if he thinks Tua is all that, he’ll take him I guess. We have no other choice but to trust him.

 

[Bananas]

hate, disgusted by, whatever, they’ve made up their minds without giving the guy a fair shake IMO.

This is on a Rivera......if he thinks Tua is all that, he’ll take him I guess. We have no other choice but to trust him.

If over the course of talking to people who have dealt with him, watching his college and NFL game tape, and watching him handle/manage this past NFL offseason, Rivera and Co don’t like what they see regarding Haskins, it’s a fair shake imo. You don’t have to play him for a couple of years “just in case he is kinda OK”. QB is the premier building block in the league. Rivera is staking his tenure, in large part, on his quarterback. If he’s sold on Haskins as a potential prospect, I’m good with it. If he’s not and he moves on, I’m good with that too.

The only thing I want from the Monikers is to have a QB worth writing home about and being a team that brings at least some joy to be a fan of. I grew up when they were the cream of the crop. I’d at least like to see them not suck for a couple of years again during my lifetime. It won’t happen if they botch the QB decision...period.

That being said, this might not be the year to get a new one even if they’re not particularly sold on Haskins. I’m a big believer that if you can’t upgrade QB to your liking, draft big bodies. And that means OL and front seven.

At N2OA they’re in a very strong spot...it’ll be nice to see what finally happens.

 

[Ridley Simon]

I agree with that. No reason to assume is had to be “Tua or bust”. It doesn’t. Next year is looking like a better draft anyway.

let’s not forget guys like Mahomes were drafted 10th OA. Watson was even farther down. So you don’t have to get top 2 pick to get a great QB.

 

[Team SWOLEvechkin]

Young is being compared to guys like Clowney, Myles Garrett, Von Miller, etc. These guys don't grow on trees. Chase Young said the most important defensive play is the strip sack, its a momentum shift if you're winning or losing. People are acting like the only important metric is if Hask is better than the QB at 2. The issue is always who you take at 2. Right now assuming Joe B (The Lesser) goes #1, you either ask for a king's ransom, or you take a king in Chase Young.

 

[Bananas]

Young is being compared to guys like Clowney, Myles Garrett, Von Miller, etc. These guys don't grow on trees. Chase Young said the most important defensive play is the strip sack, its a momentum shift if you're winning or losing. People are acting like the only important metric is if Hask is better than the QB at 2. The issue is always who you take at 2. Right now assuming Joe B (The Lesser) goes #1, you either ask for a king's ransom, or you take a king in Chase Young.

What if Haskins is as good as, let’s say, Jason Campbell?

Let’s say Young is as good as Miles Garrett or one of the Bosa brothers. What happens then?

 

[Team SWOLEvechkin]

D.P.

 

[Team SWOLEvechkin]

If Hask is as good as Jason Candle and Young turns into a less-injured Myles Garrett I would say that probably means your defense is top half and your offense is bottom half, but in two years you can jettison Dwayne if he still hasn't improved into a league-average quarterback. You still have a great young WR and RB core and your D-Line is probably top-10. Would take that scenario over letting Hask go for nothing and spending a second straight 1st rounder on a QB. If its Tua and he gets injured, thats worse than pretty much all other outcomes, including trading down IMO.

 

[Bananas]

If Hask is as good as Jason Candle and Young turns into a less-injured Myles Garrett I would say that probably means your defense is top half and your offense is bottom half, but in two years you can jettison Dwayne if he still hasn't improved into a league-average quarterback. You still have a great young WR and RB core and your D-Line is probably top-10. Would take that scenario over letting Hask go for nothing and spending a second straight 1st rounder on a QB. If its Tua and he gets injured, thats worse than pretty much all other outcomes, including trading down IMO.

Yeah I get it but if Tua turns into a Hall of Fame quarterback and Haskins is average that’s a very bad trade off. Also, it’s true that they drafted Haskins in round one, but don’t forget they’ve drafted first round defensive linemen in THREE straight years already...

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

If over the course of talking to people who have dealt with him, watching his college and NFL game tape, and watching him handle/manage this past NFL offseason, Rivera and Co don’t like what they see regarding Haskins, it’s a fair shake imo. You don’t have to play him for a couple of years “just in case he is kinda OK”. QB is the premier building block in the league. Rivera is staking his tenure, in large part, on his quarterback. If he’s sold on Haskins as a potential prospect, I’m good with it. If he’s not and he moves on, I’m good with that too.

The only thing I want from the Monikers is to have a QB worth writing home about and being a team that brings at least some joy to be a fan of. I grew up when they were the cream of the crop. I’d at least like to see them not suck for a couple of years again during my lifetime. It won’t happen if they botch the QB decision...period.

That being said, this might not be the year to get a new one even if they’re not particularly sold on Haskins. I’m a big believer that if you can’t upgrade QB to your liking, draft big bodies. And that means OL and front seven.

At N2OA they’re in a very strong spot...it’ll be nice to see what finally happens.

sure, agree, if Rivera decides he’s not the guy.....just having a hard time believing he goes that route.

what if Young turns out to be a HOF DE?

 

[Langway]

If Hask is as good as Jason Candle and Young turns into a less-injured Myles Garrett I would say that probably means your defense is top half and your offense is bottom half, but in two years you can jettison Dwayne if he still hasn't improved into a league-average quarterback. You still have a great young WR and RB core and your D-Line is probably top-10. Would take that scenario over letting Hask go for nothing and spending a second straight 1st rounder on a QB. If its Tua and he gets injured, thats worse than pretty much all other outcomes, including trading down IMO.

Agree with this take. The other aspect of this is that Snyder wants Haskins to succeed so it's pretty doubtful they would even take a QB at 2 one year in if they were even BPA. Thankfully Young renders that moot, otherwise a trade back would seem like the most prudent option. They need impact talent and Young should provide that. It's on them to manage to unearth more of that later in the draft or perhaps through FA later in the off-season.

 

[g00n]

If Young is a "locker room guy" who "gets it" I think RR will just take him.

 

[Jacoby4HOF66]

Surprised to see the Skins are ranked 14.

 

[kicksavedave]

That's not scientific at all.

How many people with similar tightness/flexibility don't display such injury patterns? You won't know because the group that gets hurt is all you see. Guys who play through injury for whatever reason won't seem as injury prone, and we don't know how bad an injury has to be for a player to sit (his, doctor's or coach's decision). That invalidates the McShay study as well (where is this data?).

How many who have great bone density or whatever still get hurt on a fluke play and miss a lot of games?

How much is coaching and style?

What we DO know is you can't predict the future and guys in their early 20s are still filling out. If a guy can play at the highest level then he's healthy right then. If he gets hurt again (which he probably will) it only relates to past injury history if it's the same injury or if he has some kind of birth defect that makes breaking or tearing more likely. Are we testing for that?

People can stretch soft tissue, and strengthen bones.

There's an awful lot that goes into durability vs fragility, its not entirely one scientifically measurable thing. I don't have McShay's data handy, and finding one example of a QB who was injured in college then injured in the pros is purely anecdotal. But when you track multiple draft picks from college to pros as a profession over more than a decade, he looked at a lot more data than just "Sam Bradford and RGIII". His conclusion that durability issues don't really disappear is a valid one. Your conclusion that it doesn't represent a big risk is based more on hope than on science or evidence.

If Tua's injury history was one fluky thing like a OL landing on his ankle, it would be one thing, But he's had multiple surgeries already, I believe I count 4 or is it 5. His has had surgery to insert metal rope to hold his tibia and fibula together, in BOTH LEGS. He's had ankle, knee, hip and hand injuries. He suffered a broken nose and concussion on the play that also broke his hip, so two broken bones in two different places on one play, that's something I've never heard happening before.

I would happily make an Avatar bet that he will have surgery in his first 2 years in the NFL.

 

[g00n]

Why should we care what some 20something writer thinks is "dated" when it comes to NFL uniforms. The Colts need to change, why? Because you don't like "tradition" and think too many things are "boring"? This kid is obsessed with stripes.

Ok, Zoomer.

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

Whether or not people think Haskins in the answer (spoiler: no one knows), the refusal of some people on here to acknowledge that he was set up for failure in every sense of the word is pretty shitty and unfair, and any review of his performance without acknowledging that fact clearly shows a bias.

He had a coach who didn't want to develop him because he was coaching for his job, he had the worst skill position group in the NFL (3 rookie WRs and a 34-year old as his RB1), his star LT held out the entire season and his All-Pro RG got hurt, and he had no TE option whatsoever. He clearly wasn't ready to play at first yet he showed continued improvement week after week and finished the last few games as one of the higher ranked QBs. And he acknowledged that his good games should be average games moving forward and that he has to get better. Oh, and the fanbase had totally quit on the team, and it was evident a lot of players had quit as well, knowing wholesale changes were coming after the season was over.

Rookie and young QBs do well when they don't have to do it all. Watson, Jackson, Wilson, Mahommes, Wentz, etc all had very solid teams -- especially defenses -- around them. The Redskins were, and are until proven otherwise, a complete disaster on and off the field. The big outlier is Trubisky, who was just a horrendous pick and everyone knew it.

 

[g00n]

There's an awful lot that goes into durability vs fragility, its not entirely one scientifically measurable thing. I don't have McShay's data handy, and finding one example of a QB who was injured in college then injured in the pros is purely anecdotal. But when you track multiple draft picks from college to pros as a profession over more than a decade, he looked at a lot more data than just "Sam Bradford and RGIII". His conclusion that durability issues don't really disappear is a valid one. Your conclusion that it doesn't represent a big risk is based more on hope than on science or evidence.

If Tua's injury history was one fluky thing like a OL landing on his ankle, it would be one thing, But he's had multiple surgeries already, I believe I count 4 or is it 5. His has had surgery to insert metal rope to hold his tibia and fibula together, in BOTH LEGS. He's had ankle, knee, hip and hand injuries. He suffered a broken nose and concussion on the play that also broke his hip, so two broken bones in two different places on one play, that's something I've never heard happening before.

I would happily make an Avatar bet that he will have surgery in his first 2 years in the NFL.

Hope? I'm not hoping for anything. I don't care about Tua as the pick, I'm stating facts. Also I don't think I ever stated what the injury risk WAS. I said the analysis is probably crap data and doesn't seem scientific.

I would never, ever make a bet based on injury chances because as I said it's completely unpredictable and football is a game of injuries. A lot of it is likely bad luck, overuse, coaching, training, playbook, lifestyle, or other factors that don't fall neatly into some pattern that translates from one completely different system (college) to another (pro).

The only condition I will put on that is, without modifications to training and diet, some people might be more prone to SOFT tissue injuries than others and will need to protect themselves more from strains and sprains, which often linger. Bones almost never break in the same place because they heal stronger. So I don't think someone in their 20s with no diagnosed disease and a few broken bones is likely suffering from kind of bone density deficiency so much as a rough lifestyle or playing style, bad luck, or exposure to some big hits by those looking to put a hurting on him.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Whether or not people think Haskins in the answer (spoiler: no one knows), the refusal of some people on here to acknowledge that he was set up for failure in every sense of the word is pretty shitty and unfair, and any review of his performance without acknowledging that fact clearly shows a bias.

He had a coach who didn't want to develop him because he was coaching for his job, he had the worst skill position group in the NFL (3 rookie WRs and a 34-year old as his RB1), his star LT held out the entire season and his All-Pro RG got hurt, and he had no TE option whatsoever. He clearly wasn't ready to play at first yet he showed continued improvement week after week and finished the last few games as one of the higher ranked QBs. And he acknowledged that his good games should be average games moving forward and that he has to get better. Oh, and the fanbase had totally quit on the team, and it was evident a lot of players had quit as well, knowing wholesale changes were coming after the season was over.

Rookie and young QBs do well when they don't have to do it all. Watson, Jackson, Wilson, Mahommes, Wentz, etc all had very solid teams -- especially defenses -- around them. The Redskins were, and are until proven otherwise, a complete disaster on and off the field. The big outlier is Trubisky, who was just a horrendous pick and everyone knew it.

Whether or not people think Haskins in the answer (spoiler: no one knows), the refusal of some people on here to acknowledge that he was set up for failure in every sense of the word is pretty shitty and unfair, and any review of his performance without acknowledging that fact clearly shows a bias.

He had a coach who didn't want to develop him because he was coaching for his job, he had the worst skill position group in the NFL (3 rookie WRs and a 34-year old as his RB1), his star LT held out the entire season and his All-Pro RG got hurt, and he had no TE option whatsoever. He clearly wasn't ready to play at first yet he showed continued improvement week after week and finished the last few games as one of the higher ranked QBs. And he acknowledged that his good games should be average games moving forward and that he has to get better. Oh, and the fanbase had totally quit on the team, and it was evident a lot of players had quit as well, knowing wholesale changes were coming after the season was over.

Rookie and young QBs do well when they don't have to do it all. Watson, Jackson, Wilson, Mahommes, Wentz, etc all had very solid teams -- especially defenses -- around them. The Redskins were, and are until proven otherwise, a complete disaster on and off the field. The big outlier is Trubisky, who was just a horrendous pick and everyone knew it.

When was a he “one of the better QBs”? He was probably the worst and that’s with a dumbed down offense.

I have been following the Skins since 2002 and Haskins has been the worst QB we have suited up. I know we have had some duds, but Haskins takes the cake due to how dumbed down the offense was for him and he still couldn’t produce even at a subpar level.

 

[LesDiablesRouges]

It’s crazy that just two years ago, Haskins beat out Burrows for the OSU starting job and went on to throw 50+ TDs the following year.

The kid was thrown into the fire with no supporting cast and showed a lot of growth the last few weeks of the season.

You cannot deny the arm talent and pocket presence.

Haskins showed more than enough to me to get this whole year. He’s only 22 for god sakes.

If he’s absolute ass this year, we will likely be bad enough to be in the running for Lawrence.

Young is easily the best player in this draft IMO - no disrespect to Burrows, who’s great - and we will immediately have one of the best - and young - D-Lines in football.

 

[g00n]

When was a he “one of the better QBs”? He was probably the worst and that’s with a dumbed down offense.

I have been following the Skins since 2002 and Haskins has been the worst QB we have suited up. I know we have had some duds, but Haskins takes the cake due to how dumbed down the offense was for him and he still couldn’t produce even at a subpar level.

WK 15: 6th rated QB in NFL
WK16: 1st rated QB in NFL
WK17: Did not play

 

[Bananas]

Haskins play is only one of the things that concerns me about him. How he comes across in interviews, his tumble to 15 at the draft, and his apparent difficulty in picking up the playbook are also red flags imo. He did improve over the course of the season, so I’m not gonna say he’s a lost cause. Jury is still out for sure.

If forced to make a bet I’d predict he won’t become a top-10 QB in this league - but that’s most kids so it’s not saying much. He definitely tickled my bust sensor though, lol. There’s just something about him that doesn’t scream “elite NFL quarterback”. I’ve been wrong plenty of times before and won’t be totally shocked if he grows up significantly under Rivera and his staff.

Tua’s injury history makes it almost impossible to draft him over Young. Trading down and drafting Herbert/Love/Tua and getting some extra ammo is a feasible alternative. Once again it really boils down to the internal grade on Haskins after dealing with him for a year. If they think he’s got a shot it makes a whole lot of sense to address the rest of the roster this year and give him a year to see how he does.

The best case scenario is that Haskins is a diamond in the rough and turns into something special and Young gets drafted and excels.

 

[LesDiablesRouges]

We know Rivera is a defensive guy. Honestly, even with Haskins out of the picture, I have this feeling we would have still taken Young (over Burrows), while scooping up one of the many high-end QBs that were available in FA.

 

[Ridley Simon]

WK 15: 6th rated QB in NFL
WK16: 1st rated QB in NFL
WK17: Did not play

LOL. That’s awesome.

However, the ones that was to criticize him will find way to discredit those statistics.

or will ignore them altogether.

 

[Cush]

I was in kindergarten at the time, all I remember is being kept up because people in the neighborhood were honking horns and stuff

Some weird British broadcast

edit: seems you can't watch it embedded, have to go to Youtube

 

[Jacoby4HOF66]

 

[Team SWOLEvechkin]

Yeah I get it but if Tua turns into a Hall of Fame quarterback and Haskins is average that’s a very bad trade off. Also, it’s true that they drafted Haskins in round one, but don’t forget they’ve drafted first round defensive linemen in THREE straight years already...

Yeah, I would 100 percent take a HOF QB over a HOF DE, but i'm not sure people have Tua rated as highly at his position as they have Chase Young at DE, some say Chase is the best player in the draft, so that should at least appease the PBA crowd. It is true we've gone D-Line a bunch in a row, but we will see benefits from that, esp if you add CY. I also think RR and Jack know that very few people will question them taking CY at 2, but having the first ever pick under your tenure be a QB after you just took a QB, esp if that guy gets injured (through no one's fault) fans might get disgruntled, probably to an unfair level versus say Young getting injured. Not sure this should factor in to who you pick, but it may.