OT: Washington Redskins 2020 Season Thread Vol 8: The Offseason

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CapitalsCupReality

It’s Go Time!!
Feb 27, 2002
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If he was injury free would he go before Burrows?

Would we be having this conversation even if he didn’t? Would it be such a no brainer?
 

CapitalsCupReality

It’s Go Time!!
Feb 27, 2002
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The best QBs have all overcome major injuries. Tua is lauded for his toughness. Joe Gibbs used to emphasize the importance of this in a QB. It could even be a selling point.

I don't buy the "brittle" designator. What does that even mean? Do people wonder about his bone density? It's not a real thing. His awareness? Because that is fantastic.

Worst case, you ask him not to run---something else he excels at.

In College? Before becoming great NFL QB’s?
 

Ridley Simon

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Feb 27, 2002
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Skins won’t take Tua. I hope Miami moves up to 3, that would be awesome. We’d really have them over a barrel. Dangle that 2 to anyone that wants it — force the Fins to move to 2. Try and get 26 for it. May need to settle for 39
 

EroCaps

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Aug 24, 2003
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In College? Before becoming great NFL QB’s?

How much does it really matter?

Tua has the A+ character to overcome most challenges.

The same can't be said yet for Simba. It's possible Haskins matures, but I've seen more immature, talented QBs flame out than superstar QBs have their careers derailed by injury.

I know which one I'd bet on making multiple Pro Bowls.

I'll add that Chase Young is phenomenal, but not perfect. He has a limited bull rush, and his speed can be accounted for better at the NFL level. I don't think he'll have the immediate impact that Nick Bosa had for the Niners. I wouldn't start measuring Young for a gold jacket.
 

CapitalsCupReality

It’s Go Time!!
Feb 27, 2002
64,386
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How much does it really matter?

Tua has the A+ character to overcome most challenges.

The same can't be said yet for Simba. It's possible Haskins matures, but I've seen more immature, talented QBs flame out than superstar QBs have their careers derailed by injury.

I know which one I'd bet on making multiple Pro Bowls.

I'll add that Chase Young is phenomenal, but not perfect. He has a limited bull rush, and his speed can be accounted for better at the NFL level. I don't think he'll have the immediate impact that Nick Bosa had for the Niners. I wouldn't start measuring Young for a gold jacket.

It certainly matters if you’re trying to sell that as a positive.

character may not matter if the body doesn’t hold up is my concern. They must hit on this pick with an 8-10 year game changer starter minimum IMO.
 

BobbyClarkeFan16

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Nov 29, 2005
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How much does it really matter?

Tua has the A+ character to overcome most challenges.

The same can't be said yet for Simba. It's possible Haskins matures, but I've seen more immature, talented QBs flame out than superstar QBs have their careers derailed by injury.

I know which one I'd bet on making multiple Pro Bowls.

I'll add that Chase Young is phenomenal, but not perfect. He has a limited bull rush, and his speed can be accounted for better at the NFL level. I don't think he'll have the immediate impact that Nick Bosa had for the Niners. I wouldn't start measuring Young for a gold jacket.

Look, we all get that you hate Haskins. But once again, you are continually asked what rookie quarterback would have survived in that Washington environment last season? Do you think Kyler Murray would have survived? What about Daniel Jones, the guy that many publications had the Redskins taking before the Giants reached at 6? Or what about Drew Locke? None of them would have survived if the head coach and coaching staff didn't want them because the staff didn't want to put the effort in with regards to developing a quarterback. That's exactly what happened to Haskins. Now it's a completely different cast and while Rivera and company haven't outright given Haskins the job, they've been NOTHING but complimentary about his work ethic and effort. Same with the veterans who have been working out with him this off-season. They said the difference from last season to this season is noticeable.

As for Haskins 'immaturity', I'm not worried about it at all. The kid was excited because he was going to win his first NFL game. He ran into the crowd to celebrate with fans. Big effing deal. It's not like he's Ryan Leaf immature. Just like all the reports that he couldn't read a playbook. The kid's been playing football most of his life. Most good coaches put a playbook together around a player's strength. Gruden didn't. You want to develop a player, you find out what their strengths and weaknesses are you build on that. Gruden didn't invest any time in Haskins.

As for Tua, great quarterback, but if it's true about the multiple ankle surgeries, the broken wrist that wasn't revealed until he did a workout, the two executives who said he failed a physical, plus the fact that he still isn't healthy and did his pro workout in a controlled and scripted manner a la Kaepernick, that actually creates even more questions. I like Tua, but I'm not drafting him in the top 5, especially if his health is questionable. Yes, the hip is healing and he's on his way, but the multiple surgeries, especially for a quarterback that makes a living out of his mobility, is a death knell, even if his character and toughness are top notch.

In the end, we know it's going to be Chase Young at number 2. We know they're going to give Haskins another chance. If he fails this year with a coaching staff that is behind him, then you can make a case that Haskins needs to go. And honestly, next year's quarterback class looks even better than this year's class.
 

kicksavedave

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Nobody can predict injuries. I don't care what some study/analysis says, it's not scientific. Crap data for sure.

"Injury prone" seems like a terrible reason to pass on an athlete in their early 20s unless they have some kind of disorder.

That said, I'm not sure about Tua. Didn't watch much CF and vid I saw he looked good but how hard is it to hit wide open receivers and slant routes.

It might be true that no one can predict injuries exactly, its not entirely true that injury prone isn't a real concept. Some players are durable, some players are not. It has a lot to do with the tightness/flexibility in their joints and in some cases bone density which is not uniform for every player. The first player I heard described this way was Michael Westbrook, who one doctor stated his knees were "loose" and that dude had sprained knees every year.

Todd McShay did a study recently. He looked at college QBs who became NFL starters and their injury history in college. Almost universally, those players who had injury histories in college then also had injury histories in the NFL. And the inverse was also true - college QBs who were considered durable tended strongly to be durable in the NFL. This was all measured in games lost to injury in college vs the NFL for players who started a certain amount of games.
 

Jacoby4HOF66

Pull my finger
Mar 13, 2009
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Sheehan, Keim and others seem to be of the mind lately Young is the pick, Haskins is the #1 with Allen as a hedge and then if Haskins doesn’t work out the Skins will try to make a run at Goldilocks from Clemson. That scenario seems to be the most likely.
 
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g00n

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Nov 22, 2007
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It might be true that no one can predict injuries exactly, its not entirely true that injury prone isn't a real concept. Some players are durable, some players are not. It has a lot to do with the tightness/flexibility in their joints and in some cases bone density which is not uniform for every player. The first player I heard described this way was Michael Westbrook, who one doctor stated his knees were "loose" and that dude had sprained knees every year.

Todd McShay did a study recently. He looked at college QBs who became NFL starters and their injury history in college. Almost universally, those players who had injury histories in college then also had injury histories in the NFL. And the inverse was also true - college QBs who were considered durable tended strongly to be durable in the NFL. This was all measured in games lost to injury in college vs the NFL for players who started a certain amount of games.


That's not scientific at all.

How many people with similar tightness/flexibility don't display such injury patterns? You won't know because the group that gets hurt is all you see. Guys who play through injury for whatever reason won't seem as injury prone, and we don't know how bad an injury has to be for a player to sit (his, doctor's or coach's decision). That invalidates the McShay study as well (where is this data?).

How many who have great bone density or whatever still get hurt on a fluke play and miss a lot of games?

How much is coaching and style?

What we DO know is you can't predict the future and guys in their early 20s are still filling out. If a guy can play at the highest level then he's healthy right then. If he gets hurt again (which he probably will) it only relates to past injury history if it's the same injury or if he has some kind of birth defect that makes breaking or tearing more likely. Are we testing for that?

People can stretch soft tissue, and strengthen bones.
 
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CaptainAmerica

OV >>>>>> Crosby
May 3, 2010
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Look, we all get that you hate Haskins. But once again, you are continually asked what rookie quarterback would have survived in that Washington environment last season? Do you think Kyler Murray would have survived? What about Daniel Jones, the guy that many publications had the Redskins taking before the Giants reached at 6? Or what about Drew Locke? None of them would have survived if the head coach and coaching staff didn't want them because the staff didn't want to put the effort in with regards to developing a quarterback. That's exactly what happened to Haskins. Now it's a completely different cast and while Rivera and company haven't outright given Haskins the job, they've been NOTHING but complimentary about his work ethic and effort. Same with the veterans who have been working out with him this off-season. They said the difference from last season to this season is noticeable.

As for Haskins 'immaturity', I'm not worried about it at all. The kid was excited because he was going to win his first NFL game. He ran into the crowd to celebrate with fans. Big effing deal. It's not like he's Ryan Leaf immature. Just like all the reports that he couldn't read a playbook. The kid's been playing football most of his life. Most good coaches put a playbook together around a player's strength. Gruden didn't. You want to develop a player, you find out what their strengths and weaknesses are you build on that. Gruden didn't invest any time in Haskins.

As for Tua, great quarterback, but if it's true about the multiple ankle surgeries, the broken wrist that wasn't revealed until he did a workout, the two executives who said he failed a physical, plus the fact that he still isn't healthy and did his pro workout in a controlled and scripted manner a la Kaepernick, that actually creates even more questions. I like Tua, but I'm not drafting him in the top 5, especially if his health is questionable. Yes, the hip is healing and he's on his way, but the multiple surgeries, especially for a quarterback that makes a living out of his mobility, is a death knell, even if his character and toughness are top notch.

In the end, we know it's going to be Chase Young at number 2. We know they're going to give Haskins another chance. If he fails this year with a coaching staff that is behind him, then you can make a case that Haskins needs to go. And honestly, next year's quarterback class looks even better than this year's class.

This’s terrible take. You forget to mention that Case Keenum massively outplayed Haskins. Haskins literally looked poo except the last few games.

I don’t need anymore visual evidence to know he’s not an NFL caliber QB.

Daniel Jones and Kyler are in another stratosphere... Haskins doesn’t belong in the same sentence as aforementioned QBs.

NFL game pass is free... rewind back and look at how crappy he looked.
 

CapitalsCupReality

It’s Go Time!!
Feb 27, 2002
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We got it....you hate Haskins. Buckle up for the coming season of him.

Keenum is a capable journeyman starter.....of course a rookie with no serious 1st team reps is going to struggle. Duh alert.
 
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EroCaps

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Aug 24, 2003
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Look, we all get that you hate Haskins. But once again, you are continually asked what rookie quarterback would have survived in that Washington environment last season? Do you think Kyler Murray would have survived? What about Daniel Jones, the guy that many publications had the Redskins taking before the Giants reached at 6? Or what about Drew Locke? None of them would have survived if the head coach and coaching staff didn't want them because the staff didn't want to put the effort in with regards to developing a quarterback. That's exactly what happened to Haskins. Now it's a completely different cast and while Rivera and company haven't outright given Haskins the job, they've been NOTHING but complimentary about his work ethic and effort. Same with the veterans who have been working out with him this off-season. They said the difference from last season to this season is noticeable.

As for Haskins 'immaturity', I'm not worried about it at all. The kid was excited because he was going to win his first NFL game. He ran into the crowd to celebrate with fans. Big effing deal. It's not like he's Ryan Leaf immature. Just like all the reports that he couldn't read a playbook. The kid's been playing football most of his life. Most good coaches put a playbook together around a player's strength. Gruden didn't. You want to develop a player, you find out what their strengths and weaknesses are you build on that. Gruden didn't invest any time in Haskins.

As for Tua, great quarterback, but if it's true about the multiple ankle surgeries, the broken wrist that wasn't revealed until he did a workout, the two executives who said he failed a physical, plus the fact that he still isn't healthy and did his pro workout in a controlled and scripted manner a la Kaepernick, that actually creates even more questions. I like Tua, but I'm not drafting him in the top 5, especially if his health is questionable. Yes, the hip is healing and he's on his way, but the multiple surgeries, especially for a quarterback that makes a living out of his mobility, is a death knell, even if his character and toughness are top notch.

In the end, we know it's going to be Chase Young at number 2. We know they're going to give Haskins another chance. If he fails this year with a coaching staff that is behind him, then you can make a case that Haskins needs to go. And honestly, next year's quarterback class looks even better than this year's class.

You guys need to get over this high school shit. I don't "hate" Haskins. I am deeply skeptical about the likelihood that he'll develop into an elite NFL QB.

Scouts were always iffy on him. They said things pre-draft like His accuracy down the field is subpar and it results in him taking sacks for fear of throwing picks. Has limited vision, but could be serviceable in a West Coast offense. He might have maturity issues.

This is pretty much exactly what we all watched last season.

Scott Turner does not run a West Coast offense. And it is almost impossible to win Super Bowls with a serviceable QB.

Tua's injuries are less a concern to me than the other guy's mediocrity.
 
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CaptainAmerica

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We got it....you hate Haskins. Buckle up for the coming season of him.

Keenum is a capable journeyman starter.....of course a rookie with no serious 1st team reps is going to struggle. Duh alert.

Why should a crap player get 1st team reps when he’s clearly inferior? He didn’t get the 1st team reps cause he was garbage, plain and simple. I’m sure he was getting second team reps though. Good players take any opportunity they’re given and run with it.

The playbook was super dumbed when he came in and still couldn’t do jack shit. Name a QB in the league that was worst than him last year?
 

CaptainAmerica

OV >>>>>> Crosby
May 3, 2010
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Charlottesville,VA
You guys need to get over this high school shit. I don't "hate" Haskins. I am deeply skeptical about the likelihood that he'll develop into an elite NFL QB.

Scouts were always iffy on him. They said things pre-draft like His accuracy down the field is subpar and it results in him taking sacks for fear of throwing picks. Has limited vision, but could be serviceable in a West Coast offense. He might have maturity issues.

This is pretty much exactly what we all watched last season.

Scott Turner does not run a West Coast offense. And it is almost impossible to win Super Bowls with a serviceable QB.

Tua's injuries are less a concern to me than the other guy's mediocrity.

Couldn’t have said it better. Exactly my thoughts on Haskins.
 

CapitalsCupReality

It’s Go Time!!
Feb 27, 2002
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Of course he was inferior. He was a stone cold rookie and he wasn’t put in a position to even develop properly until after Gruden was shown the door.

I’m not some huge Haskins fan but wake up to reality of how he’s been run so far as a developing prospect.
 

CapitalsCupReality

It’s Go Time!!
Feb 27, 2002
64,386
19,081
You guys need to get over this high school shit. I don't "hate" Haskins. I am deeply skeptical about the likelihood that he'll develop into an elite NFL QB.

Scouts were always iffy on him. They said things pre-draft like His accuracy down the field is subpar and it results in him taking sacks for fear of throwing picks. Has limited vision, but could be serviceable in a West Coast offense. He might have maturity issues.

This is pretty much exactly what we all watched last season.

Scott Turner does not run a West Coast offense. And it is almost impossible to win Super Bowls with a serviceable QB.

Tua's injuries are less a concern to me than the other guy's mediocrity.

Here’s some real scouting reports....not your revisionist version lol.

Dwayne Haskins NFL Draft 2019: Scouting Report for Washington Redskins' Pick

nothing about accuracy issues or maturity (I mean come on he’s a young man....expected somewhat)

this one only mentions accuracy on the move is an issue....

NFL Draft & Combine Profile - Dwayne Haskins | NFL.com
 
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EroCaps

Registered User
Aug 24, 2003
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Here’s some real scouting reports....not your revisionist version lol.

Dwayne Haskins NFL Draft 2019: Scouting Report for Washington Redskins' Pick

nothing about accuracy issues or maturity (I mean come on he’s a young man....expected somewhat)

this one only mentions accuracy on the move is an issue....

NFL Draft & Combine Profile - Dwayne Haskins | NFL.com

Your article mentions his downfield problems. It's essentially a hopeful version of what I wrote that says he projects as a starting QB. That's it. A starter.

Draft Tua and keep him in the pocket.

Profit.
 

Ridley Simon

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Feb 27, 2002
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Marin County — SF Bay Area, CA
Every single post by you, @EroCaps in this thread (and it’s not hyperbole, it’s literally all of them, save maybe two or three) are about your “disdain” — we can use that instead of “hate”, maybe that’s more mature? — for Haskins and he will absolutely fail because 6 games his rookie season he looked bad. We get it. We all get it.

You have driven your opinion home. Over and over and over. Can we discuss some other things around this team?

@CaptainAmerica is nearing the same level. Maybe IM each other and bash away, as it seems to be something you need to do.

Excessively. So maybe leave the “high school” comments out of this? Or perhaps that’s how non high schoolers opine — by beating the same drum over and over and over again
 

Bananas

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Bottom line is there are two worst case scenarios:

- the Skins pass on Tua or Herbert and one or both winds up being substantially better than Haskins. It’s a real possibility based on Haskins’ year one. I think people have a right to not want to go down that road.

- the Skins draft Tua or Herbert and either (plus Haskins) suck. Meanwhile Chase Young becomes a multiple Defensive MVP force.

It’s a situation that’s as fraught with peril as it is chalk full of upside. Hopefully the brain trust gets it right because if they don’t it could keep the Monikers in the Stone Ages for a lot longer...
 
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Ridley Simon

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
18,126
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Marin County — SF Bay Area, CA
Bottom line is there are two worst case scenarios:

- the Skins pass on Tua or Herbert and one or both winds up being substantially better than Haskins. It’s a real possibility based on Haskins’ year one. I think people have a right to not want to go down that road.

- the Skins draft Tua or Herbert and either (plus Haskins) suck. Meanwhile Chase Young becomes a multiple Defensive MVP force.

It’s a situation that’s as fraught with peril as it is chalk full of upside. Hopefully the brain trust gets it right because if they don’t it could keep the Monikers in the Stone Ages for a lot longer...
Right. Things kinda points to Young, IMO. He’s got arguably the highest ceiling, and he definitely has the highest floor
 
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