Washington, Pittsburgh, Toronto, battle of big fives

Sidgeni Malkby

Registered User
Nov 19, 2008
2,478
888
NJ
Pitt last week.
Caps this week.
Leafs next week.

Dunno why the leafs get to be part of any conversation after 9 games, and considering the other 2 teams have won the cup the last 3 years.

If you wan to be fair, they should be:
Caps, Pens, Hawks, Bruins (all recent cup winners)
Or how about TBL?
 
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CapnZin

Registered User
Jul 20, 2017
4,665
6,204
Sweden
Pittsburgh has the best 1-2-3 F punch with Crosby Malkin and Kessel. Letang isn’t a Carlson and Murray is far behind Holtby.

Caps

Pitt

Leafs
 

um

Registered User
Sep 4, 2008
15,699
5,295
toronto
Dunno why the leafs get to be part of any conversation after 9 games, and considering the other 2 teams have won the cup the last 3 years.

If you wan to be fair, they should be:
Caps, Pens, Hawks, Bruins (all recent cup winners)
Or how about TBL?

I think you know why the Leafs were included... and if you're including the Leafs you could include Tampa, Winnipeg, Nashville (with more D), Philly, etc.

There are a few teams comparable to the Leafs top 5, only Tampa is close to the Caps and Pens.
 
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ziggyjoe212

Registered User
Oct 2, 2017
3,039
2,359
This is really a debate between the Caps and Pens.

Crosby may not be what he used to be but he's certainly no worse than anyone on Caps or Leafs. Letang is finally back to his 2016/2017 form. If Murray is back to his rookie form it'll be hard for anyone to knock off the Pens 5.
 

Spirit of 67

Registered User
Nov 25, 2016
7,061
4,938
Aurora, On.
Dunno why the leafs get to be part of any conversation after 9 games, and considering the other 2 teams have won the cup the last 3 years.

If you wan to be fair, they should be:
Caps, Pens, Hawks, Bruins (all recent cup winners)
Or how about TBL?
Sorry, didn't realize TBL was part of the convo.
 

Habs 4 Life

No Excuses
Mar 30, 2005
41,015
4,793
Montreal
Leafs are still behind both the Caps and Pens in terms of best 5 and also depth wise.
Leafs are getting up there though, 2-3 moves to go
 

Beauner

Registered User
Jun 14, 2011
13,031
6,132
Pittsburgh
Pittsburgh has the best 1-2-3 F punch with Crosby Malkin and Kessel. Letang isn’t a Carlson and Murray is far behind Holtby.

Caps

Pitt

Leafs
so the Penguins win at 3/5 positions but are #2? How does that work?

Edit: Also with Letang looking like he's rebounding to his pre-injury form, he's a lot closer to Carlson and way past Reilly.
 

Luigi Lemieux

Registered User
Sep 26, 2003
21,440
9,062
Pittsburgh
Washington

Toronto

Until Toronto proves themselves i can't put them on the same tier. Pens/caps have won the last 3 cups, and have only been knocked out by each other.
 
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gtrower

Registered User
Feb 10, 2016
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so the Penguins win at 3/5 positions but are #2? How does that work?

Edit: Also with Letang looking like he's rebounding to his pre-injury form, he's a lot closer to Carlson and way past Reilly.

Id venture to say because the gap between Crosby/Malkin/Kessel and Ovi/Backstrom/Kuzy is razor thin while the gap between Carlson/Holtby and Letang/Murray is fairly wide. Letang is playing better, but that’s hardly a feat after watching him flail around the rink last April.
 

gtrower

Registered User
Feb 10, 2016
1,887
2,547
Stamkos/Kucherov/Point/Hedman/Vasilevsky >> Leafs 5

I’m very low on stamkos right now, but the other 4 are probably good enough to thrust them into the convo. Probably have them even with Toronto right now.
 

vivalavili

Registered User
Jan 8, 2016
368
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Helsinki
I’m very low on stamkos right now, but the other 4 are probably good enough to thrust them into the convo. Probably have them even with Toronto right now.
It's weird how low people are on Stamkos. He did just have an 86 point year and has transformed his game from being a one-dimensional goal scorer to an all-around machine. Still a great player in my opinion and if TBL would have been included in the OP, I'd go Caps-Bolts-Pens/Leafs. Pens are getting old and their top D was awful last playoffs. Leafs are still super young, but could challenge Caps and Bolts in the next few years.
 

CapnZin

Registered User
Jul 20, 2017
4,665
6,204
Sweden
so the Penguins win at 3/5 positions but are #2? How does that work?

Edit: Also with Letang looking like he's rebounding to his pre-injury form, he's a lot closer to Carlson and way past Reilly.
3/5 yes, but the difference of Letang - Carlson and Murray - Holtby dont offset the margin of difference for Crosby/Malkin/Kessel - Ovechkin/Backstrom/Kuznetsov
 
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PensandCaps

Beddy Tlueger
May 22, 2015
27,612
17,954
3/5 yes, but the difference of Letang - Carlson and Murray - Holtby dont offset the margin of difference for Crosby/Malkin/Kessel - Ovechkin/Backstrom/Kuznetsov

I don't see a difference between Murray and Letang vs Carlson and Holtby....

I'd probably take Letang over Carlson if old Letang is back.

Murray and Holtby are pretty even. Slight edge to Holtby.
 

Revelation

Registered User
Aug 15, 2016
5,298
2,963
I’m very low on stamkos right now, but the other 4 are probably good enough to thrust them into the convo. Probably have them even with Toronto right now.

He's coming off an 86 point season and 16 playoff points in 17 games. He's fallen off for sure but he's easily Marner tier at this point and not that far from Tavares if at all
 
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Revelation

Registered User
Aug 15, 2016
5,298
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Also the Sharks with Couture/Pavelski/Vlasic/Burns/Karlsson/Jones are probably up there too. Given that Burns and Karlsson basically give them top line forward production
 

gtrower

Registered User
Feb 10, 2016
1,887
2,547
It's weird how low people are on Stamkos. He did just have an 86 point year and has transformed his game from being a one-dimensional goal scorer to an all-around machine. Still a great player in my opinion and if TBL would have been included in the OP, I'd go Caps-Bolts-Pens/Leafs. Pens are getting old and their top D was awful last playoffs. Leafs are still super young, but could challenge Caps and Bolts in the next few years.

That is weird because I’d argue the exact opposite of Stamkos. That his game has transformed from an all-around machine to a one-dimensional scorer. Answer is probably somewhere in the middle.
 
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Empoleon8771

Registered User
Aug 25, 2015
80,407
78,003
Redmond, WA
Letang is better than Carlson, so to see him set equal to Rielly doesn't make much sense to me. 1 bad year for Letang where he missed all of his summer training due to an injury doesn't erase the previous years of excellence, especially considering how dominant he looks this year. Toronto shouldn't even be in this conversation, Tampa Bay would be a better team to mention here.

In terms of these 3 teams, I think it's really clearly Pittsburgh followed by Washington followed by Toronto. The Penguins have the 2 best centers and the Capitals have the best goalie, with the winger and defensemen being debatable between the two (would probably take Ovechkin and Letang, although it's not super clear cut). Toronto has nothing even debatable for #1.
 

gtrower

Registered User
Feb 10, 2016
1,887
2,547
He's coming off an 86 point season and 16 playoff points in 17 games. He's fallen off for sure but he's easily Marner tier at this point and not that far from Tavares if at all

Are you a Tampa fan? I ask because most Tampa fans that I’ve encountered on here agree that he’s a shell of his former self. Still a wicked PP threat, but is reliant on Kuckerov for any ES production.

If Stamkos is regarded as Tavares level then Tampa would certainly be in the discussion for the top of this list. But I’d have him as easily the worst forward of the 12 between Caps/Pens/Leafs/Bolts Top 3.
 

CapnZin

Registered User
Jul 20, 2017
4,665
6,204
Sweden
I don't see a difference between Murray and Letang vs Carlson and Holtby....

I'd probably take Letang over Carlson if old Letang is back.

Murray and Holtby are pretty even. Slight edge to Holtby.
While living in Pitt, I didn’t get Root and Pittsburgh has a deal which blacks out every national game besides NBC, so I didn’t watch Murray a lot unless friends and I went to the games or out to bars, but if Murray’s 5-hole and, especially, glove side didn’t improve, there’s a strong gap for Holtby and Murray.

Offensively speaking, Letang is, career wise, a better option than Carlson, but I have to go with what a Dman is actually there to do; defend. Sullivan even said Letang has to be better, because he was faltering really badly/regressing in his own zone. The edge in Ozone play goes to Letang, but I’d take Carlson pretty much any day since he’s good in his own Zone.

That’s also the thing too... “if old Letang is back”. Not trying to call you out or go after everything you’re saying, but it doesn’t look like the good Letang is back. The injuries have kind of derailed his D play, not necessarily his Ozone play. Sure everyone can say he rides the Ozone play if Crosby/Malkin and so on, but the same thing could be said about Carlson with Ovi and their depth.

Career wise, yeah the Penguins kind of wash everyone away and it may not be close. Based off of recent play, I think that Holtby and Carlson bridge the gap that Crosby/Malkin/Kessel have over Ovi/Backstrom/Kuznetsov
 

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