Was the Lucic - Neal trade actually a win for the Flames?

Discussion in 'National Hockey League Talk' started by Kamiccolo, Feb 11, 2020.

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  1. Jihadi Flames Fan

    Jihadi Flames Fan #GOFLAMESGO

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    What's Neal's +/-? :laugh: That's all you need to know about that player.

    Honestly, I just need him to score 2 more goals so we can get that 3rd rounder!
     
  2. Anglesmith

    Anglesmith Setting up the play?

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    Okay, so at this point I think we can be pretty certain that you aren't discussing this topic in good faith, and are willing to dig yourself further down just to get a reaction. I'm okay to move back to the hockey discussion and leave you to think more about this on your own.

    All of which could be found in the post you quoted in this reply, in addition to a re-statement of exactly what that stance is.

    Well, again, you're trying to argue a point that I was not engaging in. I was discussing a specific topic that came up within this thread on the subject of what Neal would have done in Calgary had be been kept on for another season.
     
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  3. deeb

    deeb Registered User

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  4. Snakepit

    Snakepit Registered User

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    Both teams got overpaid garbage wingers, not much more too it
     
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  5. Eisen

    Eisen Registered User

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    No.....
    Not at this point at least.
     
  6. Bank Shot

    Bank Shot Registered User

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    The difference between Lucic and a decent value $4 million dollar player is huge. Lucic has 4th liner production at ES and his numbers only look palatable based on heavy PP time that he wouldn't be getting if the org wasn't trying to salvage this contract.

    Not sure why Flames fans should be so concerned about a $2 million hit on the book for 6 seasons when their window to win will be closed by then. Much better than a $5 million dollar anchor during their best window to win during the next 2-3 seasons.

    After that all of Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk will be looking for huge raises and Giordano will be retired. They don't have anything in the pipeline coming along to fill in the gaps either.

    Treliving made some good moves and also made a lot of win now moves, and then about faced and started playing cautious suddenly.

    Either he's dumb or ownership is meddling.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
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  7. Anglesmith

    Anglesmith Setting up the play?

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    Ownership has a mandate to not spend money for guys not to play for the Flames, so that is without a doubt part of it. Treliving had already bought out multiple other signings, so asking ownership to pay Neal for 8 years to not play for them would require significant justification. As soon as the deal for James Neal was signed, they had signed an anchor, so you have to start there as a basis. The Flames were exchanging one anchor for another anchor regardless. A buyout would've just made it a smaller anchor for longer.

    I think you're way off on a few of your takes regarding the Flames; in particular that their window will be closed any time soon. Just based on the age of their core and the age of the next wave joining that core, there is no rebuild around the corner for a long time. This team has aspirations of being like Boston or St. Louis and being able to continually retool and reshuffle until they get the mix right. They may not have it right at the moment, but they also don't have any impending disaster coming to rob them of their ability to compete and keep working at it. Their cap situation went through a bottle-neck last summer in needing to sign Tkachuk, and now has breathing space to allow the cap ceiling to grow until they need it. The deal for Lucic was part of that, but wasn't their only way to address it, as you say. Every Troy Brouwer or James Neal move that Treliving pulls will hurt their ability to put together a contender, so for now it's up to him to navigate that. As for filling in the gaps, they have been doing that all along since the rebuild finished. They broke Dougie Hamilton into two younger players as a starter. Last year it was bringing Valimaki, Andersson and Mangiapane into the NHL and getting them some seasoning. This year, we've brought Dube and Kylington into the fold. I could go into the future, but of course that would be speculative. Obviously, if you ignore our prospects entirely, we have nothing in the pipeline. But more importantly, there aren't a lot of gaps in our organization where we don't have high-potential youth emerging, improving and pushing things forward.

    Anyway, as you suggest, Lucic has produced over the course of the year in line with a fourth-liner. He also brings an added element of grit to the team which was identified at the end of last year as a team need in the wake of Ferland's departure. And no, I don't mean things like "answering the bell" and "enforcing the code," but rather just being heavy on the forecheck and making the other team hurt a bit in order to deal with his size in the corners. If you have a team full of Gaudreaus on the forecheck, your opponent is feeling pretty fresh in the third period. And beyond all of that, one of the most important things that contrasts Lucic with many other available, cheap players, is that Lucic has actually been an effective players possession-wise. He's also been on the ice for more goals for than against on a team with a double-digit negative goal differential. So when you wrap all that together, what $3.3M player (note, I realized that with the Flames paying Lucic only $5.25M and a buyout costing $1.95M, this is a more realistic figure) would help the Flames and be unarguably better, without costing the Flames anything else? I think it's harder to identify than you think. Before claiming that a certain price tag leads to a certain amount of production, use Ryan Reaves as a comparable. He signed a $5.5M contract with everyone knowing his scoring would be at fourth-liner rate because there is more to a player's value than just their points.

    Also, I was trying to resist commenting on this because it just begs for a Neal comment that wouldn't relate to this topic, but for what it's worth, I wouldn't call Lucic's PP time "heavy" at all. He's on the second unit, and that second unit has been improved this year compared to pretty much every year I can remember (which isn't saying much). I agree with you that he was initially put there because they want to boost his stats and give him some confidence after the last couple of years, but in doing so they've actually found something that works, especially recently. The Flames' PP2 has kind of been an afterthought the last few years. They've consistently just thrown guys in there who they hope might find a bit of confidence if a bounce goes their way.
     
  8. Fivealive5

    Fivealive5 Registered User

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    No, but it wasn't a loss either.

    I feel that people in this topic are forgetting that Neal was literally a healthy scratch in the playoffs. He was absolute garbage, you may as well have paid me $5M. Lucic is at least a roster player on the Flames.
     
  9. Johnnybegood13

    Johnnybegood13 Registered User

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    Treliving knew Neal would get goals in Edmonton because of their crappy depth, very shrewd of him to get Holland to add a 3rd pick and eat $750k
     
  10. SaltNPeca

    SaltNPeca Registered User

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    I live in Europe, so don't watch much Flames games except BoAB. Honestly barely noticed Lucic. Is he doing that stuff in the other games? semi-srs

    EDM wins because Neal helped with the rocket start that has them in a competitive situation at the trade deadline. Neal will remain a PP weapon on a team that was previously struggling on special teams. Neal is part of what seems to be much better locker room chemistry. The tire-fire seemed to be extinguished in his presence which may be incredibly unscientific, but nonetheless obvious.
     
  11. aufheben

    aufheben #Panarin4Hart

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    Yeah, it's funny how people are endlessly arguing about it. :laugh:
     
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  12. Chet Manley

    Chet Manley Registered User

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    When comparing physicality between the two it's not a clear cut win for Lucic unless he is skating better than last year. Lucic had lots of hits with the Oilers but he was always showing up late to do it. Like no pressure on the opposition players to move the puck or take one of his hits to make a play. His hitting was hard at times but ineffective as the play had long moved on and the hitee was set for it. At least Neal can still get to players quick enough to pressure a decision by the other player.

    Perhaps it's not fair of me to be comparing last years Lucic to this years Neal. I don't watch a lot of Flames games. Does any of this ring true?
     
  13. ijuka

    ijuka Registered User

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    There is. Lucic's contract is buyout-proof, Neal's isn't.
     
  14. DFF

    DFF Registered User

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    Yes it was always a win for the flames..Neal was garbage with a bad attitude for them.

    Oilers may think they won too and that is fine with me
     
  15. Bank Shot

    Bank Shot Registered User

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    Agree to disagree there. Maybe you feel the Flames have a Norris calibre or top 20 forward player coming up right now. I think it's highly unlikely that anything they currently have in the system is going to be better than the top players on their roster.

    Its not hard at all.

    Garnet Hathaway is easily a better player than Lucic and provides everything you talked about at a much cheaper price tag than Lucic. Only thing Lucic has on him is better fists.

    Flames had this player and let him walk.

    Hathaway and a Neal buyout for the next 4 years would have been much better and given the Flames more cap flexibility than Lucic and his declining performance.
     
  16. Rubi

    Rubi Crash and burn...

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    Everybody is saying that its a win for Edmonton because they can buy out Neal's contract. I hope they do. I look forward to the Oilers having another boat anchor buy-out for many many years to come. Plus of course the $750,000 per year that they are paying Lucic to play for the Flames. That's almost $2.75M in dead cap space each year, not counting the $3.833M next year and the $1.5M the next two years after that.

    Yep... winner winner chicken dinner!
     
  17. Mobiandi

    Mobiandi Seanny Gaudreau

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    Honestly I can't find many things that Lucic does better than Zac Rinaldo.

    Neal is a disaster of a player but at least he has no trade protection
     
  18. Rubi

    Rubi Crash and burn...

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    Neal's trade protection is his $5.75M contract. Nobody's going to take that on without Edmonton eating a lot of it for the next 4 years.
     
  19. allhaildraisaitl

    allhaildraisaitl Registered User

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    Thankfully the Oilers can buy out Neal and not have either player on the team after this season. I would rather have a couple million of buyout cap then have either player on my roster. The Oilers would have bought out Lucic if they could have, no one ever expected the Oilers to be able to unload Lucic without giving up significant assets.
     
  20. Fig

    Fig Petit Pelletier

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    "The battle of Alberta extends beyond the hockey games between the two clubs"...

    In a semi more serious note, this thread is essentially, "My dud can beat up your dud."
     
  21. SupremeTeam16

    SupremeTeam16 5-14-6-1

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    The extra goals the Oilers have gotten out of Neal is literally the reason the Oilers are ahead of the Flames in the standings right now.
     
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  22. Rubi

    Rubi Crash and burn...

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    Scoring goals in February and March and April are way more important than scoring them in October. Ask anybody, other than an Oilers fan of course... when would you rather a player or players get hot... at the start of the season or the end?
    But carry on in your belief that Neal's hot streak in October is going to help the Oilers win those big important games in the next 1-1/2 months.
     
  23. Bank Shot

    Bank Shot Registered User

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    2 points in the standings in October has equal value as 2 points in April.. This is pretty basic stuff.
     
  24. Rubi

    Rubi Crash and burn...

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    If you say so. I guess that the fact that Neal has been pretty well useless and a detriment to the team since October doesn't mean a thing then. I guess you're lucky you built up such a big cushion in October, in the standings, that scoring goals in the next 25 games don't matter too much.
     
  25. Bounces R Way

    Bounces R Way Feaster's Beasters

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    I remember Puljujarvi tried to put it through his legs one time. Still trying to find that puck in Finland.
     

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