Was Kyle Turris a risk?

[Rabid Ranger]

Flyers fan here, I wanted Kane obviously but as of right now I am happy with JVR, great playoff last year- hope he can handle the responsibility granted in his future. I think if the Flyers would have one the lottery they would have announced very early that Kane was going to be their pick. No disrespect to the Hawks but picking Kane was a no risk no brainer! I think there is such a gap between him and the next 2 being JVR and Turris that it was just a scouting preference between JVR and Turris. I think when we look at JVR and Turris I would have to say their learning curve is very similar and most Flyers fans have been keeping close tabs on JVR. Consider these JVR tidbits:
1. JVR refused the Flyers recomendation and went to college instead of joining Bramton of the OHL, the Flyers believe that stunted his development.
2. JVR looked terrible in his brief stint with the Phantoms and the questions about his potential came into play.
3. His first 2 years were very rocky often scratched or in a deminished role.
4. Rumors of trade attempts.
And the positives being, he is far more insulated with talent and supporting cast than Turris is. I don't think his skill set is much different, nor are his physical features but I feel that his(JVRs) oppourtunity and roles are much more developmentally appropriate. With the Yotes Turris is always going to be in the spotlight because of his lack of supporting cast, even in the minor he was a lone show for the most part and his game is completely diffewrent than one he should be playing. It is easy to say but if Turris played on a team like Philly I think he would have a little more impact, but if he would have went to Chicago and put into the role of Kane he would be in the minors for sure, unable to handle the role.

JVR is MUCH more physically imposing than Turris is or ever will be. He's got a much differant frame. Turris' situation is a cautionary tale that even if you're a very high draft pick, the learning curve and development arc can be substantial. He should have been allowed to develop for another year or more at Wisconsin before becoming a pro.

 

[UvBnDatsyuked]

Nope, Kane was not a slam dunk pick at that time. Many people preferred Turris over Kane.

Hfboards threads from June 2007 before the draft

If you were the Blackhawks...

If the hawks pick turris what about the flyers?

That is funny. So you basically need 100% of hf posters to agree in order for it to be a slam dunk? Then Crosby wasn't either since there were posters claiming Kessel should go #1

 

[Hasbro]

Reminds me of Chad Kilger and Manny Malhotra being rushed too early.

He really should have been left at Wisco for at least another year.

 

[WreckItRask]

There is just a lower level of competition in Junior A. I don't see how anyone can say that doesn't increase risk. Certainly scouts look for raw, mechanical abilities, but nothing can truly substitute for being tested by fire.

No one can say that Turris was truly a proven top competitor in the Canadian junior ranks. I remember during the draft there was definitely talk about the fact that the BCHL was an inferior league (obvious, of course). Most of the reassurances were that 'the skills were there'. But if scouts were bringing it up, it was certainly something considered in his selection.

You know who was a proven competitor in the Canadian Junior ranks that year...Thomas Hickey, taken one pick later. Even better, Zach Hamill taken at #8 overall. It's not the fact that he played in the BCHL, it was the path they chose with his development. He was playing in a great college program, with a great coach, and a team that could have returned with about 8-10 future NHLers on the roster (including Stepan, Gardiner, McDonough, McBain, Geoffrion, etc) that next season. One more year at Wisconsin would have most likely taught him how to take on more of a leadership role, get a lot stronger in the weight room with, and allowed him to grow up. I watched him play in his freshman year at Wisc, and he was good but not dominant. He was on the cusp of really finding his overall game that year.

Now, with all that being said, he's not yet 22 years old. Are we really calling him a bust already?

 

[PhoPhan]

You know who was a proven competitor in the Canadian Junior ranks that year...Thomas Hickey, taken one pick later. Even better, Zach Hamill taken at #8 overall. It's not the fact that he played in the BCHL, it was the path they chose with his development. He was playing in a great college program, with a great coach, and a team that could have returned with about 8-10 future NHLers on the roster (including Stepan, Gardiner, McDonough, McBain, Geoffrion, etc) that next season. One more year at Wisconsin would have most likely taught him how to take on more of a leadership role, get a lot stronger in the weight room with, and allowed him to grow up. I watched him play in his freshman year at Wisc, and he was good but not dominant. He was on the cusp of really finding his overall game that year.

Now, with all that being said, he's not yet 22 years old. Are we really calling him a bust already?

This. The Coyotes made a mistake bringing him into the NHL so early, especially on such an awful team with such an awful coach. The following year, he grew a lot in the AHL, and he probably should have spent another month or two there last year. Instead, he got 11 minutes a night all year long. He looked good in spurts, but as is often the case with a player getting limited time, he struggled to gain momentum.

But when the playoffs rolled around, he looked like a different player. A four-game sweep isn't a great sample size, but if he can sustain that level of play for most of next season, he'll be a legitimate top 6 center for the first time in his career.

 

[RedBaronIndian]

There was never any question that Kane was going 1st overall. Just because a few people on HFBoards were discussing the possibility doesn't mean anything.

Those threads were mere days before the draft. I posted them to show the prevailing sentiment at that time. The general feeling was that the top 3 prospects were Kane, JVR and Turris in no particular order.Anybody of those 3 could have gone first and many wouldn't have been surprised.

In hindsight you can say Hawks wanted Kane all along, but he wasn't the consensus pick in the way that Johnson, Stamkos or Tavares were.

An article from the Canadian press. The TSN link for that article is dead now.

Canadian Press
5/30/2007 6:05:48 PM

ANAHEIM, Calif. (CP) - The Chicago Blackhawks have zeroed in on three players as they prepare to make the first overall selection in the 2007 NHL entry draft in just over three weeks.

It appears either Kyle Turris, Patrick Kane or James vanRiemsdyk, the top three ranked North American skaters by NHL Central Scouting, will slip on a Blackhawks sweater June 22 in Columbus, Ohio.

''Those are the three guys we're looking at,'' Hawks GM Dale Tallon told The Canadian Press in a phone interview Wednesday.

The three forwards were among the six prospects on display at a media luncheon Wednesday before Game 2 of the Stanley Cup final. And all three made it clear they'd love to be Chicago's man.

''It would be unbelievable,'' said Turris, MVP of the Royal Bank Cup Tier 2 tournament this year. ''I don't know if I can put into words what a feeling that would be. But all these guys here have a chance to go first overall.''

Kane, who some believe may currently have the inside track to go first, also welcomes the idea of going to Chicago.

''It's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to go first overall,'' said Kane. ''Just to be considered is a huge honour.''

New Jersey native vanRiemsdyk took a deep breath before pondering the thought of going No. 1.

''Chicago is a great city,'' he said. ''It's an Original Six franchise. It would be huge thrill to play for the Blackhawks.''

Philadelphia has the second overall pick, followed by Phoenix, Los Angeles, Washington and Edmonton.

Defenceman Keaton Ellerby of the Kamloops Blazers, the No. 4-rated prospect by Central Scouting, and blue-liner Karl Alzner of the Calgary Hitmen, the No. 5-rated skater, were also at the luncheon Wednesday along with Knights winger Sam Gagner, the No. 6-rated prospect.

The top European skater is winger Alexei Cherepanov of the Omsk club. He broke Pavel Bure's 1988-89 Russian league rookie record with 18 goals this season. But because Russia once again opted out of the NHL's player transfer agreement with the IIHF, his stock may fall in the draft as teams won't want to take a player they can't bring to North America.

''Skill-wise he's top five but without the agreement, who knows?,'' said Tallon. ''With the money being thrown around over there, that might scare people.''

The six-foot-one, 170-pound Turris led the B.C. Hockey League with 66 goals and was second in points with 121 while starring for the Burnaby Express. He also led all playoff scorers with 26 points and was the Canadian Junior A player of the year.

The 17-year-old from New Westminster, B.C., who says he'll play at the University of Wisconsin next season, is the first junior A player ever to top the Central Scouting rankings.

''He's got great hands, he's got quickness, he sees the ice really well,'' Tallon said of Turris. ''He makes these great passes. Size and strength are the issues for him right now. But overall, he's got a deceptive shot, really good shot from the point. He's got grit, too, for his size. A very smart player.''

Turris wears No. 19 because after his hero Steve Yzerman and has tried to pattern his game after the former great Red Wing. He's not daunted by Chicago's lack of success in recent years.

''They're a team on the rise,'' he said. ''Jonathan Toews is coming in next season and they've got other great prospects. Things are looking up in Chicago.''

Kane, a native of Buffalo, N.Y., is a little on the small side at 5-9 and 160 pounds, but tremendously skilled.

''He's got great hands, great eyes, and makes the players around him better,'' said Tallon. ''He can really pass. He can also shoot and score.''

That is funny. So you basically need 100% of hf posters to agree in order for it to be a slam dunk? Then Crosby wasn't either since there were posters claiming Kessel should go #1

I don't think that is true considering that they belonged to different draft years . I know Kessel was being compared to Crosby but that was months or years before the draft. Erik Johnson was the consensus number 1 pick of 2006 just before the draft.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

The reason I'm asking this is because even though he was ranked so high, he played in Tier 2 junior, not the WHL (where he could have played for Vancouver there)
I still don't understand why his rank was so high and don't think he is a bust yet. He still has potential but was worth a top 3 pick?

In my opinion Turris is closer to a bust pick from where he was picked, when you pick #3 the expectations are high, it's hard to see him suddenly becoming an elite fwd after so many years in the league underneath him. He could be a useful bottom 6 guy if he accepts a lower role.

 

[YNWA14]

Those threads were mere days before the draft. I posted them to show the prevailing sentiment at that time. The general feeling was that the top 3 prospects were Kane, JVR and Turris in no particular order.Anybody of those 3 could have gone first and many wouldn't have been surprised.

In hindsight you can say Hawks wanted Kane all along, but he wasn't the consensus pick in the way that Johnson, Stamkos or Tavares were.

An article from the Canadian press. The TSN link for that article is dead now.

I don't think that is true considering that they belonged to different draft years . I know Kessel was being compared to Crosby but that was months or years before the draft. Erik Johnson was the consensus number 1 pick of 2006 just before the draft.

He was the consensus #1. How many ranking organizations had Kane not ranked #1? Of course some media is going to say it's a tight race, but they said the same thing about RNH this year. Edmonton's GM said that there were 5 or more people in consideration for #1 overall...but everyone knew the consensus was that RNH was #1...just like Hall, and just like Kane.

 

[Yog S'loth]

Could be worse. Coulda drafted Thomas Hickey.

 

[Jesus Christ Horburn]

Turris and Gagner are two players who were dominant before they were drafted, but rushed by their respective teams after drafting them.

 

[PhoPhan]

In my opinion Turris is closer to a bust pick from where he was picked, when you pick #3 the expectations are high, it's hard to see him suddenly becoming an elite fwd after so many years in the league underneath him. He could be a useful bottom 6 guy if he accepts a lower role.

"So many years in the league"? He has 131 career games under his belt with an AHL year sandwiched between, and it's not like he's seen prime minutes.

 

[untouchable21]

"So many years in the league"? He has 131 career games under his belt with an AHL year sandwiched between, and it's not like he's seen prime minutes.

Apparently nowadays if a player doesn't come in a la Jeff Skinner, he's a bust.

And really, he's got 2 seasons under his belt. Imagine if all teams had given up on Thomas or St.Louis after they had played 131 games They are prime examples why you wait on a smart talented players.

Turris will truly begin to show his promise this coming season.

 

[c_mak]

Turris was rushed because the Yotes thought they would go with a youth movement, fro cheap and let them learn on the fly. Boedker, and tikanov were part of this plan. Bodeker is still in the Ah, and tikanov threatened to go back or did go back to Russia. It was a terrible plan.
Turris' development has suffered because of this plan. I am not convinced he is as good as advertised. I think he is a average skater with a great shot. That's what they said about Brett Hull though

 

[The Winter Soldier]

"So many years in the league"? He has 131 career games under his belt with an AHL year sandwiched between, and it's not like he's seen prime minutes.

Players develop at different stages in their careers, while Kane and now Van Riemsdyk from the same draft year are stars in the league. Young players coming into the league usually show their worth sooner than in years past. Skinner last year is another good example, while 22(he turns this next month) is not necessarily old by any means, it's time he shows he was worth that high draft ranking of being #3 overall. I will say this, he's got talent, but if it were this easy for scouts Kovalev should have been one of the greatest hockey players of all time, instead of the enigma he was during his career.

 

[Dolemite]

Yes. His size and his opposition's caliber creates an obvious risk factor.

Add that to the fact that I still think the Yotes rushed him, and you have a bad combination and early result.

Correction. Gretzky rushed him. One of the many reasons why the franchise (pre-Maloney) was driven into the ground.

It's too soon to tell if he's a bust or not. Right now his main problem is that he doesn't 'get' what it takes to prepare and play at the NHL level on a daily basis. He's got the skills, that's not the problem. He was given chances to earn his ice time last season but didn't make the most of it. This season will be the indicator of what kind of player he will become down the road.

 

[R S]

Correction. Gretzky rushed him. One of the many reasons why the franchise (pre-Maloney) was driven into the ground.

It's too soon to tell if he's a bust or not. Right now his main problem is that he doesn't 'get' what it takes to prepare and play at the NHL level on a daily basis. He's got the skills, that's not the problem. He was given chances to earn his ice time last season but didn't make the most of it. This season will be the indicator of what kind of player he will become down the road.

Same thing. Gretzky was part of the Yotes...

 

[Ward Cornell]

In reality there's probably only 1 player per draft year that should
make the jump to the NHL without stunting their potential.
IMHO most players that make the NHL as an underager would be better served in the
long-run by being allowed to play against their own age group till at least 20 or 21.

 

[Dolemite]

Same thing. Gretzky was part of the Yotes...

During that era, Gretzky was the Yotes.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

That is funny. So you basically need 100% of hf posters to agree in order for it to be a slam dunk? Then Crosby wasn't either since there were posters claiming Kessel should go #1

Kessel was from the 2006 draft.

 

[Granlund2Pulkkinen*]

I just vividly remember him being touted as a project player and a few years from the NHL. I remember how shocked I was over him being on the team first year.

 

[DangerMan]

I think Phoenix would be wise to try and convert Turris to a winger. That way he can just concentrate on using his speed and shot off of the rush. Turris really struggled with the defensive side and it seemed to have hurt his confidence early on. He's been trying to catch up from that ever since. He just needs less on his plate and focus in on what he's good at.

 

[R S]

During that era, Gretzky was the Yotes.

So....

 

[r0bert8841]

Tippet knows how to develop young players. Be thankful Phoenix that Dallas let him go in time to save Turris.

 

[ayoshi]

Turris will be a great player. He is still really young, and has exelled at every level (Jr, NCAA, AHL) except the NHL. But watch out this coming year. A sleeper pick in my pool next season, that's for sure!

 

[PhoPhan]

Turris was rushed because the Yotes thought they would go with a youth movement, fro cheap and let them learn on the fly. Boedker, and tikanov were part of this plan. Bodeker is still in the Ah, and tikanov threatened to go back or did go back to Russia. It was a terrible plan.
Turris' development has suffered because of this plan. I am not convinced he is as good as advertised. I think he is a average skater with a great shot. That's what they said about Brett Hull though

Boedker is an NHL player. Tikhonov never even threatened to go back to the KHL. These players were rushed and the Coyotes are still trying to make up for it, but of Turris, Boedker, Tikhonov and MacLean, not one is a bust or a lost cause.

The Hull comparison, even stylistically, isn't very apt, either. I doubt Turris is ever as good as Sakic, but they play a more similar game.

I just vividly remember him being touted as a project player and a few years from the NHL. I remember how shocked I was over him being on the team first year.

Most of your shock probably came from the fact that that didn't actually happen. Unless you're talking about the three games he appeared in after Wisconsin's season had ended.