Was Alain Vigneault the best coach the Canucks have ever had?

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DennisReynolds

the implication
Dec 11, 2011
5,269
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Well I wasn't really implying it could be Torts if thats what you're getting at.

Just words like "was" and "ever had" seem so final.

I don't care what his regular season(s) looks like... the best best coach we've ever had is the one standing behind the bench as we hoist the Stanley Cup. Hasn't happened yet.

So as I see it, AV is the best coach we've had so far... but I sure hope the bar hasn't been permanently set.
ah. Looks like my implication sensor is broken.
 

Wetcoaster

Guest
I think we can safely eliminate Mr. PHD - Bill LaForge from consideration. :laugh:

Here he is with Canucks draft pick JJ Daigneault on draft day at the Montreal Forum - note that Daigneault is on crutches. Typical. :laugh:

Just rockin' the polyester suit look, eh?


6573493.jpg


For those of you unfamiliar with that sad saga check out:
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=46907155&postcount=16
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1400087
 
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Soth

Registered User
Feb 18, 2010
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the best best coach we've ever had is the one standing behind the bench as we hoist the Stanley Cup.

I think we all agree with this. But to this point, AV had a great run and developed a great team.

I'm glad I made this a poll though. I was starting to think most nuck fans thought AV was a horrible coach. I see now it was just a handful of very noisy posters making 10 times as many posts as those that disagreed with them. I feel better about our fanbase after seeing the poll results
 

Lonny Bohonos

Registered User
Apr 4, 2010
15,645
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Middle East
I think we all agree with this. But to this point, AV had a great run and developed a great team.

I'm glad I made this a poll though. I was starting to think most nuck fans thought AV was a horrible coach. I see now it was just a handful of very noisy posters making 10 times as many posts as those that disagreed with them. I feel better about our fanbase after seeing the poll results

I find the anti-AV crowd seems to be led by posters who are easily agitated with quick fuses.

Coaching should rarely cause such anger. But it does.
 

MS

1%er
Mar 18, 2002
53,362
83,431
Vancouver, BC
I find the anti-AV crowd seems to be led by posters who are easily agitated with quick fuses.

Coaching should rarely cause such anger. But it does.

Same.

People who can't see the bigger picture and then lose their **** because they don't agree with the coach's choice of #4C/#6D/2nd unit PP defender or whatever, as if minor lineup choices at the bottom end of the roster are the most important thing a coach does.
 

Lonny Bohonos

Registered User
Apr 4, 2010
15,645
2,060
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Same.

People who can't see the bigger picture and then lose their **** because they don't agree with the coach's choice of #4C/#6D/2nd unit PP defender or whatever, as if minor lineup choices at the bottom end of the roster are the most important thing a coach does.

Well it seems of few of these posters are happy to discount AVs tenure as luck based on the Lu, the Sedins et al but MG is somehow pure genius.

Likewise how AV played favorites yet seemingly none of these other coaches do.

That tells me something about the level of "mental gymnastics" involved.

Theres also a lot that goes on with MG getting involved in player decisions that are out of the hands of the coach.

NHL coaches have the best job in the world. Get good money to watch pro-games all the while not worrying about getting fired because its inevitable. :laugh:
 

RobertKron

Registered User
Sep 1, 2007
15,410
8,496
Same.

People who can't see the bigger picture and then lose their **** because they don't agree with the coach's choice of #4C/#6D/2nd unit PP defender or whatever, as if minor lineup choices at the bottom end of the roster are the most important thing a coach does.

I also cannot recall ever seeing a really specific breakdown of why Vigneault is bad. It's always vague notions like country club atmosphere, is too hard on the players, doesn't get the players fired up, hates young players, doesn't adjust, defends the loss, changes the lines too much, doesn't change the lines enough, Aaron Rome Aaron Rome Aaron Rome (remember when Burrows was the guy everyone said Vigneault was in love with and should be cut?), etc.

There's never any actual substance to the analysis. There's never any evidence that the posters even know how to explain his systems play, much less point out the flaws. The whole thing just reeks of a hindsight-based tantrum, and an inability to take a nuanced view of a situation.
 

MS

1%er
Mar 18, 2002
53,362
83,431
Vancouver, BC
I also cannot recall ever seeing a really specific breakdown of why Vigneault is bad. It's always vague notions like country club atmosphere, is too hard on the players, doesn't get the players fired up, hates young players, doesn't adjust, defends the loss, changes the lines too much, doesn't change the lines enough, etc. There's never any actual substance to the analysis. There's never any evidence that the posters even know how to explain his systems play, much less point out the flaws. The whole thing just reeks of a hindsight-based tantrum, and an inability to take a nuanced view of a situation.

It seems to be :

1) Hates young players! (Despite the fact that when you actually look at it in a case-by-case basis, he was one of the best coaches in the league at developing young players.)

2) Defends 0-2 deficits! Sits on leads! (Despite the fact that we were the highest scoring team from 2009-2012 before an off year last year, and consistently one of the best teams in the league from in front.)

3) Dresses the wrong #4C/#6D! (As if this actually matters much.)

4) Doesn't call any time outs!

Worst coach ever!!!1!

__________

And of course, people develop narratives that are entirely false.

To read this board, you'd think that Jordan Schroeder spent the entire season marooned on the 4th line while Andrew Ebbett regularly played in front of him.

Schroeder played 26 of his 31 games on the top 3 lines, and Andrew Ebbett saw more icetime than Schroeder in a game exactly 4 times last season. But who needs facts?
 

RobertKron

Registered User
Sep 1, 2007
15,410
8,496
It seems to be :

1) Hates young players! (Despite the fact that when you actually look at it in a case-by-case basis, he was one of the best coaches in the league at developing young players.)

2) Defends 0-2 deficits! Sits on leads! (Despite the fact that we were the highest scoring team from 2009-2012 before an off year last year, and consistently one of the best teams in the league from in front.)

3) Dresses the wrong #4C/#6D! (As if this actually matters much.)

4) Doesn't call any time outs!

Worst coach ever!!!1!

__________

And of course, people develop narratives that are entirely false.

To read this board, you'd think that Jordan Schroeder spent the entire season marooned on the 4th line while Andrew Ebbett regularly played in front of him.

Schroeder played 26 of his 31 games on the top 3 lines, and Andrew Ebbett saw more icetime than Schroeder in a game exactly 4 times last season. But who needs facts?

I think that the real laugher for me is that one of the main criticisms of AV earlier on was that he was too quick to change things around and switch up his lines when things weren't going well. People had tantrums about this. It was the reason he was horrible and awful and no good. And then a few years later, he's the worst coach ever because he takes too long to make adjustments and try different things with the lines.

That, and the whole "French Coach loves French players and unfairly favours them" narrative, which was basically developed by people who were yelling and screaming about how Alex Burrows sucks and is an ECHLer who shouldn't be on the team and AV was a moron for playing him. Years later, those same posters are probably jumping up and down about how Alex Burrows is the heart and soul of the team and blahblahblah
 

MS

1%er
Mar 18, 2002
53,362
83,431
Vancouver, BC
That, and the whole "French Coach loves French players and unfairly favours them" narrative, which was basically developed by people who were yelling and screaming about how Alex Burrows sucks and is an ECHLer who shouldn't be on the team and AV was a moron for playing him. Years later, those same posters are probably jumping up and down about how Alex Burrows is the heart and soul of the team and blahblahblah

Yeah, that was a classic.

We had hardly any French players on the team through Vigneault's time here, but we carried Guillaume Desbiens (admittedly a crap player) for like 10 games one October before cutting him, and this LOVES FRENCH GRINDERS! HATES PROSPECTS! thing started with that and never died.
 

Hammer79

Registered User
Jan 9, 2009
7,223
1,033
Kelowna
I think AV had his ups and downs here. Was he the best ever? Maybe, but then again I think it's more of a statement against his predecessors rather than an endorsement of AV. He was certainly better than Crawford or Keenan. Quinn is in the running, if only you put the asterisk that he was also an awful GM. Roger Neilson maybe (he was a bit before my time)? It's also a bit hard to judge, because this franchise was so awful for so long, and that wasn't all on coaching.

Positives: He had a measure of regular season success. He successfully transitioned from a D-first philosophy to an Offense oriented play-style after that unwatchable 07-08 season. He seemed to hold the room and only started to lose grip during the SJ series debacle. He was able to make adjustments in 2011, going from an offensive style to a more play-it-safe D style in the middle two rounds. Has a bad rep when it comes to young players, but saw much of the current core develop internally during his stay (Kesler, Bieksa, Edler, Daniel and Henrik, Burrows, Hansen).


Negatives:He tended to say dumb things to the media about his players (Hodgson, Luongo, Kesler come to mind). He often got out-coached in the playoffs. He made very questionable decisions when it came to goalie management, the SJ series was just icing on the cake. He was unable to coax any playoff offense out of this group since the SJ series in 2011. He stuck around 2 seasons too long and his message went stale, although MG shares the blame on that point. I think some players that have high upside had leveled out prematurely under AV, Edler and Kesler for example. He hadn't brought any young players into the core in recent years, although I guess he tried with Schroeder and Corrado to a lesser extent. He was unable to get anything out of guys like Booth or Ballard, but again the players share a lot of blame here.
 

Win One Before I Die

Cautious Optimism
Jul 31, 2007
5,119
4
was AV a good coach or a mediocre coach with a good team. How many times were you yelling at the TV when Quenneville was out coaching?
 

RewBicks

Registered User
Feb 10, 2007
1,703
0
Absolutely I think he's the best coach the Canucks have had, with Quinn in second, Crawford in third. His message got stale and players no longer felt the urgency they now seem to be feeling under a new order. This happens to all coaches. However, I always appreciated his commitment to process, which served the Canucks well for many years, and allowed them to navigate some tough spots as a team with considerable success.
 

J Canuck

Registered User
Mar 19, 2013
500
6
the couch
PQ>AV>RN>MC but only by a very thin margin. AV was given the best team to work with, Neilson seemed to do the most with the least, Crawford also got lots out of his team, but didn't take them deep enough into the playoffs to move up.
 

Alan Jackson

Registered User
Nov 3, 2005
5,197
59
Langley, BC
Same.

People who can't see the bigger picture and then lose their **** because they don't agree with the coach's choice of #4C/#6D/2nd unit PP defender or whatever, as if minor lineup choices at the bottom end of the roster are the most important thing a coach does.

I`ll try to outline the problems I had with Vigneault.

It began when it became apparent that he had no time for Trevor Linden. He would play Jeff Cowan and Byron Ritchie to death, but didn't see, to use AV's own words, where Linden "fit."

Now, this is exactly as you describe above - me losing my **** over a choice of a fringe player. And to a large extent, that's true. However, you could make a case that had Linden played more his last season the Canucks might have made the playoffs instead of missing them. Look at close the races were, how many points were lost in shootouts, and you wonder if another SO goal here from Linden couldn't have been the difference.

Considering that the players playing ahead of him weren't really any better or more successful, you'd think that the face of the franchise and fan favourite might have been given the benefit of the doubt, and it seemed like he didn't play Linden more because he simply didn't feel like it.

In grand scheme of things, though, maybe that's a minor point and it's not fair to judge AV with that bias of mine in place.

So, too, is the fact that Byron Ritchie spent large chunks of time quarterbacking a powerplay. Vigneault's public spats with the respected Willie Mitchell, laughing at players in public, his toxic relationship with the best prospect this team has had since the Sedins. The fact he had no time for your Grabners or Shirokovs or Hodgsons but couldn't get enough Cowans or Ritchies or Ryan Johnsons or Tanner Glass'.

Maybe these, too, are all minor points from somebody is looking for a reason to dislike this coach.

The real concern with AV's tenure here, and I don't think this can be argued, is how the team consistently under-performed in the playoffs. Every season, nearly without fail, AV's teams were disapointing in the playoffs. They couldn't handle adversity, they cowered under pressure, they played it safe and allowed the opposition to set the tone and momentum.

In the playoffs, this team was not prepapred. They had no idea what it took to win, or how to sustain momentum. If things started to go poorly, they stayed that way.

We'll never know, but it is my opinion that this team would have won a Stanley Cup under a different coach.

That is my big problem with Vigneault. The other stuff is all mesage board talking points. When it came to the ultimate test, this team has failed. If were going to give him credit for all the great regular seasons, he needs to take some of the blame for the poor playoffs.
 

Soth

Registered User
Feb 18, 2010
1,214
0
The fact he had no time for your Grabners or Shirokovs or Hodgsons but couldn't get enough Cowans or Ritchies or Ryan Johnsons or Tanner Glass'.

I guess I disagree with this 'fact'

Look, I loved Grabner - he was such an exciting player to watch and I hated to see him go. But he was given a lot of chances... I mean, florida got him and waived him, so AV wasn't the only one.

Shiro got a few chances, and Cody had pretty much made the team before he demanded a trade. Honestly, I was not a fan of Cody's game - his defensive play was awful, and I saw few signs of it improving. I am very happy with the trade we got for Cody and think Kassian will be the better player after a couple years of development.
 

vanuck

Now with 100% less Benning!
Dec 28, 2009
16,797
4,012
Well I wasn't really implying it could be Torts if thats what you're getting at.

Just words like "was" and "ever had" seem so final.

I don't care what his regular season(s) looks like... the best best coach we've ever had is the one standing behind the bench as we hoist the Stanley Cup. Hasn't happened yet.

So as I see it, AV is the best coach we've had so far... but I sure hope the bar hasn't been permanently set.

I agree with this.
 

vanuck

Now with 100% less Benning!
Dec 28, 2009
16,797
4,012
I also cannot recall ever seeing a really specific breakdown of why Vigneault is bad. It's always vague notions like country club atmosphere, is too hard on the players, doesn't get the players fired up, hates young players, doesn't adjust, defends the loss, changes the lines too much, doesn't change the lines enough, Aaron Rome Aaron Rome Aaron Rome (remember when Burrows was the guy everyone said Vigneault was in love with and should be cut?), etc.

There's never any actual substance to the analysis. There's never any evidence that the posters even know how to explain his systems play, much less point out the flaws. The whole thing just reeks of a hindsight-based tantrum, and an inability to take a nuanced view of a situation.

Oh, just because a majority of anti-AV posters will parrot nonsense points over and over in GDT's doesn't mean there weren't legitimate criticisms of his coaching. One only has to look back through the AV threads this past season to see some actual discussion of substance... it's all in there. And this is coming from someone who voted Yes in the poll too.
 

Tiranis

Registered User
Jun 10, 2009
23,097
28
Toronto, ON
I also cannot recall ever seeing a really specific breakdown of why Vigneault is bad. It's always vague notions like country club atmosphere, is too hard on the players, doesn't get the players fired up, hates young players, doesn't adjust, defends the loss, changes the lines too much, doesn't change the lines enough, Aaron Rome Aaron Rome Aaron Rome (remember when Burrows was the guy everyone said Vigneault was in love with and should be cut?), etc.

There's never any actual substance to the analysis. There's never any evidence that the posters even know how to explain his systems play, much less point out the flaws. The whole thing just reeks of a hindsight-based tantrum, and an inability to take a nuanced view of a situation.

Then you didn't pay attention. I posted very specific breakdowns — including of the system the Canucks played — last season. mossey3535 did as well.

I don't know if this sarcastic ******** makes you and MS feel all superior but you're really contributing about as much (actually, less) to the conversation as the people who criticize AV for hating young players or country club atmosphere. I specifically invited pro-AV posters to argue with me last season and not one of you stood up. So don't come back now and pretend like there were never any legitimate criticisms.
 

Bleach Clean

Registered User
Aug 9, 2006
26,997
6,572
It seems to be :

1) Hates young players! (Despite the fact that when you actually look at it in a case-by-case basis, he was one of the best coaches in the league at developing young players.)

2) Defends 0-2 deficits! Sits on leads! (Despite the fact that we were the highest scoring team from 2009-2012 before an off year last year, and consistently one of the best teams in the league from in front.)

3) Dresses the wrong #4C/#6D! (As if this actually matters much.)

4) Doesn't call any time outs!

Worst coach ever!!!1!

__________

And of course, people develop narratives that are entirely false.

To read this board, you'd think that Jordan Schroeder spent the entire season marooned on the 4th line while Andrew Ebbett regularly played in front of him.

Schroeder played 26 of his 31 games on the top 3 lines, and Andrew Ebbett saw more icetime than Schroeder in a game exactly 4 times last season. But who needs facts?



You want facts? How about check out the number of penalties this team has taken in his tenure, and compare it to other teams during that same span.

Or how his regular season record takes sharp drops, percentage wise, in the playoffs. Losing three times to "inferior" teams by regular seasons statistics (during the Gillis era). That's 3 out of 5 total.

Or, how the points spread among his forward corps has been disproportionately localized to the twins, and it's them that pull up the average. Good offensive coach? Does anyone have that breakdown handy with DET and CHI as comparisons?

Or, how his G/G plummeted from the regular season to the playoffs in each of the last 3 years by over a 1 G/G.

Or, how his GA/G has increased significantly the last 2 runs, again from regular season to post-season.

Or the case by case examples: Edler-Bieksa pairing (are you kidding me?), destroys Ballard's career, goes Dr. Vinny when calling out Hodgson's injury, calls out Kesler in the media before approaching him privately, leaves Luongo in net for 6+ goal nights, no accountability for players after they take penalties, yet sits Kassian and Schroeder after every mistake and so on...

Hell, his long pass break out system has put target symbols on the backs of Dmen for years. Heavy hit after heavy hit... The same system that has the Sedins bolster the team offensively, while he can't iron out the depth scoring of his forwards over years of trial. Is he really adapting a system to his players, or forcing them to conform to it?

He's the perhaps the best coach the team has ever had, but you cannot colour things one way and then deride others for doing the same the other way. AV had his faults, and it was those faults that drove him out of here, finally, aside from the faults of the players themselves. The stuff the players did is on them, and the stuff he did/didn't do is most definitely on him.
 
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