W.Nylander vs Larkin in overall value

[WetcoastOrca]

Nylander. Not only is he a great center but he could play defense and goalie too if the Leafs weren’t so deep at those positions.

 

[newfy]

Look at TOI for F's sake...Larkin gets more than 3 mins per game more. That's the equivalent of Larkin playing 13 more games than Nylander.

Edit: Actually did the math and it's like Larkin playing 99 games to Willy's 82.

If you account for Larkins 2 mins a game short handed it becomes much closer. Thats 2 mins of expending even more energy because youre short handed and wasting energy for offensive opportunity late in the game. So between wasting more energy for 5 on 5 play by pking and not getting to play 5 on 5 with the best 5 on 5 goal scorer when hes actually at 5 on 5 I dont think its as simple as saying Larkin plays 3 more mins a game so hes worse.

Larkin is the go to guy on his line, plays center, actually forechecks hard and will go into corners. Nylander plays a non-chalant game that works great as a scoring winger but would take a lot of adjusting to be trusted as a top 6 center in the NHL

Did we apply this same logic to Seguin and many others before him who did not start at C? How come guys like Marleau, JVR etc. can't beat out Hyman for 1st line wing?

To an extent, yeah. Except Seguin was a second overall pick who played center all of junior and then broke into the league on a cup winner so they just stuck him where he fit for a cup run. He was also playing center at Nylanders current age basically. Nylander had a decent amount of time to develop as a center back in Sweden/AHL and is now going on his third full NHL season and hes seen hardly any time at center. Even at the draft there were questions about him being a center long term.

But for whatever reason, Leaf fans expect him to be given full positional value of a center when hes never been trusted in the position for more than a few games at a time, vs a guy who has played 2 of his 3 seasons at center. People in this comparison love to talk about Larkins down season in his sophomore year but you know what he did? He actually transitioned to the center of the ice and learned how to play there. Would we be talking about back to back 60 point seasons for Nylander if he had to make that move and played away from Matthews? Or if Larkin stayed on the wing would he have scored 30 by now? I mean he scored 23 (the highest total between the 2 players) at 19 on the wing while Nylander has had a few seasons to match that output with less responsibility he hasnt.

Youcant say a guys a center if hes never played it in the NHL, and was iffy at the position even at the time of the draft

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

To an extent, yeah. Except Seguin was a second overall pick who played center all of junior and then broke into the league on a cup winner so they just stuck him where he fit for a cup run. He was also playing center at Nylanders current age basically. Nylander had a decent amount of time to develop as a center back in Sweden/AHL and is now going on his third full NHL season and hes seen hardly any time at center. Even at the draft there were questions about him being a center long term.

You cant say a guys a center if hes never played it in the NHL, and was iffy at the position even at the time of the draft

Where you are picked has zero bearing.

Nylander also played centre before the NHL. Was described as "A cerebral player, Nylander (despite his age and height) has been playing in the Swedish Elite League among men much larger and more experienced. Still, he’s been able to hold his own quite well showing that his hockey sense and IQ are far superior than many of his peers. In my opinion, Nylander’s upside is enormous. If things pan out, he could probably be a producing star in the NHL. ".

I hate to break it to you but Seguin didn't make the switch to centre after his first year.

Seems you have a lot of (erroneous) excuses for one moreso than the other.

 

[Breakers]

I like some of Nylander's skill a bit more.

But Larkin's compete level is better than Nylander.
Seeing Nylander hold up in the playoffs when he could have gotten to the puck first in corner in the playoffs against Boston just so he wouldn't get hit was really soft.

 

[newfy]

Where you are picked has zero bearing.

Nylander also played centre before the NHL. Was described as "A cerebral player, Nylander (despite his age and height) has been playing in the Swedish Elite League among men much larger and more experienced. Still, he’s been able to hold his own quite well showing that his hockey sense and IQ are far superior than many of his peers. In my opinion, Nylander’s upside is enormous. If things pan out, he could probably be a producing star in the NHL. ".

I hate to break it to you but Seguin didn't make the switch to centre after his first year.

Seems you have a lot of (erroneous) excuses for one moreso than the other.

I never said Seguin made the switch to center after his first year, I said he was playing center right around the age Nylander is now though. Seguin was a number 2 overall pick, that gave some competition for first overall but got picked by a team ready to win the cup which is rare for a second overall pick (almost unheard of) and made the team. Nylander spent a chunk of time in Sweden and the AHL unlike Seguin. And I dont need to make (erroneous) excuses for one of them, he made the switch to center nd is a complete superstar. Nylander is talked about like he is a first line center sometimes when he is yet to play the position.

Boston likely got less value for Seguin in a trade because he hadnt shown what he could do at center in the NHL, I absolutely think it wouldve made a difference in the return he got. But when youre talking about 20 year old kids, where you are picked absolutely has bearing, to say it doesnt is intentionally ignorant. A guy picked between 10-20 might have similar value, but a guy picked second that made some noise for first overall is going to have more value than guys picked out of the top 5 or 10.

As for your scouting report, not sure what that has to do with anything about Nylander being a center. He wasnt even playing exclusively at center before his draft and there were questions about it going forward. Thats a nice scouting report, and Nylander is a very good player, but that doesnt mean hes played center in the last 3-4 years so stop pretending like he has the value of a top 6 center, when in reality hes a softer, 1st line winger

 

[780il]

Larkin
- plays center
- better 2 way
- comparable offense on trash team
- better physicality
- good contract

 

[Punn]

Here's another piece you guys can debate on

I give the edge to Nylander (yes I know he has better line mates)

 

[Fear]

Here's another piece you guys can debate on

I give the edge to Nylander (yes I know he has better line mates)

Question - for the "against" categories, is a higher percentile better or worse?

For example, if a player is in the 90 percentile for shots against, does that mean they are in the top 10% of shots allowed, or they are in the top 10% of stopping shots allowed?

 

[Punn]

Question - for the "against" categories, is a higher percentile better or worse?

For example, if a player is in the 90 percentile for shots against, does that mean they are in the top 10% of shots allowed, or they are in the top 10% of stopping shots allowed?

Great question.

Higher is bad because it's absolutely numbers.

Lower is good for the against categories.

 

[Tarmore]

I love these posts that say subtract the PK time from Larkin, and compare the players... yet fail to remove the short handed points he acquired and say well he is better because he scored more points...... And he has what was it almost a minute more TOI even when you remove the shorthanded time.

 

[glucker]

Larkin’s pretty much superior at everything

Except hockey.

Tableau Public

 

[Critical13]

Nylander seems like the riskier choice with more game breaking skill but less utility.

If you have positional need, take Larkin. If you want to swing for the fences, take Nylander.

 

[Willy Stylez]

You are missing the right choice here, equal value.

 

[Byron Bitz]

Why are people saying it’s not close when they are the same age and both 60 point players

 

[newfy]

I love these posts that say subtract the PK time from Larkin, and compare the players... yet fail to remove the short handed points he acquired and say well he is better because he scored more points...... And he has what was it almost a minute more TOI even when you remove the shorthanded time.

Take away a couple points and give him more energy to play in offensive situations and PP, I would bet his lead in points would increase.

 

[Tarmore]

Take away a couple points and give him more energy to play in offensive situations and PP, I would bet his lead in points would increase.

You can bet and guess all you like, doesn't mean a thing.

I was just making a point.