Voting Record - Sentinel, Hockey Outsider, ChiTownPhilly

[ImporterExporter]

Just wondering why you are picking on poor CTP. The General had Crosby ranked 48.

Looking at other lists, there are a number of other voters with more highest & lowest rankings than CTP.

Example:

Mike Farkas & Canadiens1958, both extremely knowledgeable voters. Mike had Al MacInnis ranked 40 (way too high), Canadiens1958 not raked (really?).

If you want to throw out all the lists with odd ranks (rankings you don't like) there is no point to the process.

By the way: Chara 60th?

As I said before, it's not primarily the ranking. It's the putrid reasoning used to defend the original ranking. I already outlined why it's putrid above. I've got zero problem with weird rankings, so long as you can put thoughtful and logical arguments with them. CTP produced a lot of fluff, with talk of things that have zero bearing on point production, awards, playoff performances, etc. Not even understand the most basic concepts in hockey history (like LW being of the same value as a C, or as talented/deep as the C position is in hockey history).

Nobody, with a straight face can use the argument that being arguably the top LW of all time is somehow a way to justify ranking said LW over a C because said C isn't among the "top 6 pivots ever". It's ridiculous.

Chara is one of the most underrated players on the last 2 decades, IMO.

Consider, in an era where defensemen are first judged on how many points they produce when it comes to voters, Chara won a Norris and was a finalist 5 other times. 7 time postseason AS. He's one of the most dominant shut down D to lumber the back end. Elite PKer. Strong postseason resume, especially when you look at the returns he provided while on the ice vs off. Long time captain who had a fantastic Cup winning run.

To me it's about a defensemen who was first and foremost an iron wall for his team rather than somebody who routinely finished high in the scoring ranks, and despite the things working against him (wasn't a big point producer, wasn't North American, could be dirty here and there) still managed to put together a lot of hardware.

 

[ImporterExporter]

IE always speaks loudly of how objective he is but most of the time he delivers emotionally charged diatribes against other voters.

Anyone can look at my rankings and see I'm about as objective as they come sir.

But I do give you points for using one of my favorite words, diatribe, in full sentence form.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Comprendez is the spanish version IIRC. In french it's Comprenez-vous?

Common in areas that are multi-lingual amongst speakers alternating amongst a choice of over three similar languages.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Common in areas that are multi-lingual amongst speakers alternating amongst a choice of over three similar languages.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

I want to first off thank @quoipourquoi for running this project flawlessly. I know these take up a lot of time and the HOH community appreciates the huge effort. I surely do.

No doubt. And- among the items that the team including @quoipourquoi @MXD and @seventieslord handled, flawlessly, was the list-screening process.

We are fortunate that this endeavor was guided by individuals who inclined towards allowing expression, rather than suppression- of minority opinions.

 

[bobholly39]

Anyone can look at my rankings and see I'm about as objective as they come sir.

But I do give you points for using one of my favorite words, diatribe, in full sentence form.

LOL

Good one.

 

[sr edler]

a slug Capitals player ran him at the outdoor classic years back

I've watched that sequence numerous times and simply put Steckel is just skating in a straight line up the ice. Even if he can foresee Crosby turning (which is plausible) he's not obligated to move away or change path just because someone pelicans right into his tracks. Technically you could have called Crosby for an interference penalty on that play.

(a year where he was on pace for 64 goals and 132 points at exactly the halfway mark of the season btw)

High calibre players have these half seasons at times. Even lesser players streaks (Burrows, Grabner, Vanek, et cetera) just at shorter spurts. I know Bure had monster half seasons in the early 90s, for instance. It's hard to sustain over a full season because players are just humans not robots and energy (physical and psychological) comes and goes, ebb and flow, earth and moon. And to the "but, but Selänne/Mogilny in 93 and Kucherov in 19", yeah but those seasons saw general scoring spikes among top players.

 

[ImporterExporter]

LOL

Good one.

Let's go then. Point out my off the wall rankings.

I'll wait. If I'm so biased or a homer, why did I rank Crosby lower than numerous people? Why do I have Mario in the correct spot at 4? I don't have rival players dumped down dozens of spots below the average of said players.

People need to get thicker skin. I don't enjoy seeing reputable projects like these skewed because people can't leave their biases at the door.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I've watched that sequence numerous times and simply put Steckel is just skating in a straight line up the ice. Even if he can foresee Crosby turning (which is plausible) he's not obligated to move away or change path just because someone pelicans right into his tracks. Technically you could have called Crosby for an interference penalty on that play.



High calibre players have these half seasons at times. Even lesser players streaks (Burrows, Grabner, Vanek, et cetera) just at shorter spurts. I know Bure had monster half seasons in the early 90s, for instance. It's hard to sustain over a full season because players are just humans not robots and energy (physical and psychological) comes and goes, ebb and flow, earth and moon. And to the "but, but Selänne/Mogilny in 93 and Kucherov in 19", yeah but those seasons saw general scoring spikes among top players.

Steckel drove right through his head and neck on a long straight line. Zero effort to move. And you're going to suggest Crosby was in the wrong because he is turning on his skates and gets blasted from the blind side? Mmmmkay.

And then you mention bums like Burrows, Grabner, Vanek in the same breath as 87?

You honestly think, given Crosby's career averages, his age at the time, where the league scoring was, that he was going to fall off a cliff? You do realize, Crosby could have literally fell to a point per game the rest of that year and still ran away with the Art Ross and Richard trophy. That's just factual, statistical evidence. There is a big difference between a guy breaking an ankle or being in less than peak physical shape and succumbing to an injury and a superstar who got ran by a 4th line nobody and taken out of hockey for the better part of 2 years.

Just stop with the hot takes.

 

[bobholly39]

Let's go then. Point out my off the wall rankings.

I'll wait. If I'm so biased or a homer, why did I rank Crosby lower than numerous people? Why do I have Mario in the correct spot at 4? I don't have rival players dumped down dozens of spots below the average of said players.

People need to get thicker skin. I don't enjoy seeing reputable projects like these skewed because people can't leave their biases at the door.

Okay.

There's this player called Jaromir who you seemed to be particularly enamored of and for whom you came up with some really solid arguments and non-biased claims as to why he should slot in at a certain point in the project...

 

[ImporterExporter]

Okay.

There's this player called Jaromir who you seemed to be particularly enamored of and for whom you came up with some really solid arguments and non-biased claims as to why he should slot in at a certain point in the project...

Jagr was a one way player who never played D (and honestly really brought nothing beyond scoring), played the game his own way, and NEVER ONCE took a team above and beyond in the postseason, on his back. For somebody who is ranked so highly, I find that ridiculous.

People, including the folks who vote on awards for the players are so wrapped up with offensive output they forget hockey is much, much more than registering points.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I've watched that sequence numerous times and simply put Steckel is just skating in a straight line up the ice. Even if he can foresee Crosby turning (which is plausible) he's not obligated to move away or change path just because someone pelicans right into his tracks. Technically you could have called Crosby for an interference penalty on that play.

I'm correct in saying this is sarcasm because of that bit at the end, right?

 

[bobholly39]

Jagr was a one way player who never played D (and honestly really brought nothing beyond scoring), played the game his own way, and NEVER ONCE took a team above and beyond in the postseason, on his back. For somebody who is ranked so highly, I find that ridiculous.

People, including the folks who vote on awards for the players are so wrapped up with offensive output they forget hockey is much, much more than registering points.

I promise you that no one who frequents this sub-forum wants to see me and you rehash this argument again.

Just stop pretending to be the objectivity police around here.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I promise you that no one who frequents this sub-forum wants to see me and you rehash this argument again.

Just stop pretending to be the objectivity police around here.

I'm not the one putting players well outside the norm.

I'm also apparently in a smaller group here that understands hockey is about more than just point totals, especially when point totals don't coincide with WINNING. Took me a long time to get there but the game of hockey is amazing and so much more so when people stop being lazy with analysis.

 

[The Macho King]

Without getting into Crosby's individual ranking too much, I don't like the practice *in general* of questioning an individual ranking. I know I was probably one of the people who had Jagr the lowest (and far lower than he ultimately went) - and because I was an outlier it would be shit if my entire ballot was thrown out of the project.

CTP's reasoning is what it is, but I agree with the consensus that if it doesn't show undue bias to a whole class of players (be they team, generation, nationality, or hair-style), I don't really have an issue with it. The initial lists are just that - initial, and they're grouping mechanisms for a debate, which Crosby frankly fared quite well in. No harm, no foul.

 

[sr edler]

Crosby could have literally fell to a point per game the rest of that year and still ran away with the Art Ross and Richard trophy.

There's one thing thinking he would have won the scoring race (we all do) and another entirely believing he would have scored 64 goals and won the scoring race with 25+ish points.

I'm also apparently in a smaller group here that understands hockey is about more than just point totals, especially when point totals don't coincide with WINNING. Took me a long time to get there but the game of hockey is amazing and so much more so when people stop being lazy with analysis.

If you're such an astute observer of the game who understands its overall ebbs and flows on an entirely different level than most other people on this section of the board (you aren't really, to me at least, by the looks of your post), then why are you putting so much effort into pumping these pointsy half seasons? We all know Crosby can/could produce. Shouldn't you put more effort into explaining for us Crosby's two way brilliance? (and no, being better defensively than Ovechkin is not necessarily brilliance).

I'm correct in saying this is sarcasm because of that bit at the end, right?

Am I correct in saying you ranking Al MacInnis #40 was sarcasm?

 

[quoipourquoi]

I’m pretty sure everyone had a Round 1 ranking or two that would have people saying Hold on a second.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Am I correct in saying you ranking Al MacInnis #40 was sarcasm?

What a weird deflection. And I stated it at the time that he came up and corrected it via actual voting upon going back over more film. So, since we're oddly equating the two - randomly - I can expect you to correct yourself as well? wink.

 

[sr edler]

I can expect you to correct yourself as well?

Correct what? People most often mock Lindros for puck watching and not being aware of his surroundings. If that's Lindros skating into and being clipped by Steckel people would have laughed at him.

 

[K Fleur]

An outlier ranking if well supported is not a big deal, and if anything it makes the list discussion more interesting with a different point of view.

Of course the most important part is if it’s well supported.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Correct what? People most often mock Lindros for puck watching and not being aware of his surroundings. If that's Lindros skating into and being clipped by Steckel people would have laughed at him.

Even if we want to go the route of saying that it wasn't purposeful...a stretch, but whatever floats your boat...I know if I ever skated into something accidentally, I'm taking a peak - even subtly - to see what it was...but no matter. The interference bit is what made me believe it was a hoax. It's the equivalent of doubling down on 18 in blackjack...

 

[sr edler]

Even if we want to go the route of saying that it wasn't purposeful...a stretch, but whatever floats your boat...I know if I ever skated into something accidentally, I'm taking a peak - even subtly - to see what it was...but no matter. The interference bit is what made me believe it was a hoax. It's the equivalent of doubling down on 18 in blackjack...

I don't get that reference because I don't play cards, but I can't double down on anything with a first post can I?

Steckel didn't need to take a peak because he already knew it was Crosby (who skated into him). The interference part was just a technical reflection on my part.

 

[MXD]

I’m pretty sure everyone had a Round 1 ranking or two that would have people saying Hold on a second.

To be honest, I totally assumed my ranking of Charlie Gardiner would be such, but it turned out I wasn't even the highest on Gardiner...

 

[sr edler]

Your ranking of Gardiner was mainstream to say the least. I never got the opportunity myself though to (publicly) defend my Jack Walker ranking. Nobody even cared, but I can live with that.

 

[MXD]

Your ranking of Gardiner was mainstream to say the least. I never got the opportunity myself though to (publicly) defend my Jack Walker ranking. Nobody even cared, but I can live with that.

Pretty sure Gardiner and Sawchuck back-to-back is about as mainstream as... I dunno, GG Allin.