Vincent Lecavalier

Big Phil

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Nov 2, 2003
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I'm sorry but Lecavalier is nowhere near the HHOF yet. Nor is he on pace right now either. Look, the guy has talent and even if you look past what we thought he would have turned into you can only say he's had two elite seasons. 2006-'07 came out of nowhere leading the NHL in goals and finishing 4th in Hart voting. The next season he was pretty good too.

But he has been far from the bread and butter of Tampa Bay. That man is Martin St. Louis. Coincidence or not he's been the face of that franchise. He's on the right track to make the HHOF which no one can deny now.

The problem with Lecavalier has been his inconsistency. In 1999-'00 he scores 67 points which was amazing for a teenager. Then he slumps and gets 51 and 37 points the next two seasons. He pretty much threw himself out of the discussion for the 2002 Olympic team with those years. Then he puts together a 78 point year in 2002-'03 and all of the sudden he seems to be back on track. After all, it took Lafleur, Perreault and others a few years before they hit superstardom, this was supposed to be Lecavalier's time. Then a 66 point season in 2003-'04. Meh. But then the Lightning won the Cup and he was a key part of it and lets not forget the World Cup MVP in 2004. Finally the guy had arrived right? Well, not quite. In 2005-'06 he only puts together 75 points with Richards outpointing him on his own team and the stars of the NHL racking up 100. It was one of those "huh" moments with him?

But then he comes back with 2006-'07 and 2007-'08. Not bad. And he's been mediocre since then. A 67, 70 and 54 point year. He sort of redeemed himself with a good 2011 postseason though. I just don't know, a guy with a career plus minus of -106 and well, well below a point per game. He isn't the guy we have hoped he'd be.

The comparison to Staal isn't the best one to be honest. Staal may not have had a season since 2005-'06 where he cracked 100 points but he hasn't had one under 70 either. When the 2010 Olympic team came calling despite the logjam for Canada at center they couldn't bear to pick the team without Staal. Lecavalier literally played himself off that team. Staal has his work cut out for him as well in order to make the HHOF too but I think most of us consider Staal a more revered player in the landscape of the NHL compared to Lecavalier.

For some reason we continue to cling onto what Lecavalier SHOULD have been rather than what he was. For some reason he constantly gets the benefit of the doubt all the time.
 

Big Phil

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Nov 2, 2003
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how was he a jerk?

Oates you mean? Well, we don't have any insight to what happened in the dressing room but for the most part he just seemed like a quiet player who for some reason had the "audacity" not to talk to the media a lot. That's about it. We saw how the power of the media can make some players look like bigger jerks than they are such as Tom Barrasso. Look up the actual reasons WHY Barrasso didn't talk to the media and you get a better understanding of the man. He didn't talk to the media because at the end of the 1995 season for some reason they concocted some lies about him after the Pens exited the postseason. That was it for him. Too bad, because it's cost him the HHOF. As for Oates, I don't know the reasons, maybe he was just quiet. It isn't as if Joe Sakic was talkative either.
 

vecens24

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Jun 1, 2009
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For some reason we continue to cling onto what Lecavalier SHOULD have been rather than what he was. For some reason he constantly gets the benefit of the doubt all the time.

I think it mostly has to do with the fact that he DOES keep showing us these signs. He SHOULD be a top 15 player in the NHL right now if he plays up to his potential, which he shows from time to time. It's just he doesn't so he's not a top 15 guy. But we always hang on to that hope that glimmers every 2.5 seasons or so.

I don't think he's anywhere near the HHOF either. I'd even go as far as to say he'd need a 90+ point season with Hart consideration, an 80+ point season, and a 70+ point season and for somewhere in there to have a great playoff performance. Just to be considered I think he needs that. And considering the fact that he's 31 years old and on the downslope of his career, that's not exactly likely/reasonable.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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Oct 10, 2007
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...Then he puts together a 78 point year in 2002-'03 and all of the sudden he seems to be back on track. After all, it took Lafleur, Perreault and others a few years before they hit superstardom, this was supposed to be Lecavalier's time. Then a 66 point season in 2003-'04. Meh. But then the Lightning won the Cup and he was a key part of it and lets not forget the World Cup MVP in 2004. Finally the guy had arrived right? Well, not quite. In 2005-'06 he only puts together 75 points with Richards outpointing him on his own team and the stars of the NHL racking up 100. It was one of those "huh" moments with him?

makes me wonder what his career might have looked like if there had been no lockout. could he have carried the momentum from '04 playoffs/world cup and had a longer, more consistent, and more meaningful prime? maybe he hits that '06 50 goal/100 point level in '05 and stays there for a few years?

but i will say, st. louis aside, it looks bad that lecavalier was outpointed by richards in richards' rookie season. that two year nosedive you mentioned i think was partly because richards got some of his prime offensive minutes, partly because his junior hockey sidekick who he lobbied the team to draft outshining him and kind of taking his job caused a crisis of confidence that took him a while to get back.

Oates you mean? Well, we don't have any insight to what happened in the dressing room but for the most part he just seemed like a quiet player who for some reason had the "audacity" not to talk to the media a lot. That's about it. We saw how the power of the media can make some players look like bigger jerks than they are such as Tom Barrasso. Look up the actual reasons WHY Barrasso didn't talk to the media and you get a better understanding of the man. He didn't talk to the media because at the end of the 1995 season for some reason they concocted some lies about him after the Pens exited the postseason. That was it for him. Too bad, because it's cost him the HHOF. As for Oates, I don't know the reasons, maybe he was just quiet. It isn't as if Joe Sakic was talkative either.

as i recall, part of the reason barrasso was apparently so prickly to the media is because they invaded his family's privacy in the early 90s when his daughter had cancer. i think he lost his job to wregget at some point in '92 and the media used his daughter being sick as part of the goaltending controversy.
 

BamBamCam*

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Oates you mean? Well, we don't have any insight to what happened in the dressing room but for the most part he just seemed like a quiet player who for some reason had the "audacity" not to talk to the media a lot. That's about it. We saw how the power of the media can make some players look like bigger jerks than they are such as Tom Barrasso. Look up the actual reasons WHY Barrasso didn't talk to the media and you get a better understanding of the man. He didn't talk to the media because at the end of the 1995 season for some reason they concocted some lies about him after the Pens exited the postseason. That was it for him. Too bad, because it's cost him the HHOF. As for Oates, I don't know the reasons, maybe he was just quiet. It isn't as if Joe Sakic was talkative either.

There is some talk that Oates was more grumpy then quiet. A moody individual so to speak. There is more talk he battled with management several times. That's the talk anyhow.
 

Hardyvan123

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Jul 4, 2010
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Vincent Lecavalier = Bobby Smith.

Both 6'4" #1 overall picks who came into the NHL with a ton of hype. Smith was at the time the best prospect since Lafleur and compared to Beliveau.

Both had one massive season where they lived up to all their potential/hype, but otherwise spent most of their careers as 'good' #1 centers who didn't quite meet expectations.

Both were the #1 center on a Cup winner.

Similar playing style, will have similar career totals.

Bobby was more of a play maker and had an excellent playoff record while Vinny is a better goal scorer and has been just ok in the playoffs.
 

Big Phil

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Nov 2, 2003
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as i recall, part of the reason barrasso was apparently so prickly to the media is because they invaded his family's privacy in the early 90s when his daughter had cancer. i think he lost his job to wregget at some point in '92 and the media used his daughter being sick as part of the goaltending controversy.

Youtube interview explains a lot about Barrasso here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGXMpyu79EI

It actually makes him look a lot better than we've always been told about him. To be honest its always understandable how he thumbed his nose towards them. Let's face it, the media isn't exactly known as being pillars of community either.
 

Hardyvan123

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Yes, I saw Dino play. He was an excellent support player, but if he was the star of your team, you weren't going to have a very good team.



Points is a much stronger indication of a player's worth than goals, but 7th in points over the course of a player's career isn't particularly HHOF-quality, considering very few players have careers that perfectly overlap.

I agree that points is a stronger indication of a players worth, almost all of the time with forwards.

He being 7th in his career so far doesn't necessarily mean that he will be in the HHOF but it does go to indicate that he will be in the discussion. His placement at the end of his career will give us more meaning than the snapshot right now.

I use it to compare how he compares career wise to all other players during his playing years and it's only one of many ways we need to look at him.

PPG is another way to look at it as well but then you are comparing players with 300 plus games difference played as well and it might get tricky if the scoring rates are quite different from one end of the comp to the other.

His last 3 seasons and age 31 doesn't bode well for his HHOF chances though IMO.
 

MadLuke

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Jan 18, 2011
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He his 8 in game played for the choseen period, kind of normal to be at the 7 position for points and also kind of not that high.

He his 29 in ppg during that period, behind Ray Whitney, Straka, Elias, Brad Richards, Sundin, Demitra, etc....
 

Big Phil

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He his 8 in game played for the choseen period, kind of normal to be at the 7 position for points and also kind of not that high.

He his 29 in ppg during that period, behind Ray Whitney, Straka, Elias, Brad Richards, Sundin, Demitra, etc....

Yikes. Straka? Whitney? The other four aren't cringe-worthy but the first two......
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
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Whoever said Bobby Smith : While somewhat different (Smith was a better stickhandler, Vinny is a better shooter) on some aspects, Vinny's career can pretty much be compared to Smith at this point.
 

Fred Taylor

The Cyclone
Sep 20, 2011
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Vinny Lecavalier is very similar to Rick Nash in the sense that both are 6'4'' 1st overall draft picks with elite offensive skill, but simply have not had the production you would expect of them. Of couse Lecavalier has 2 seasons far above what Nash has done so far, but Nash has also had no Marty St. Louis to play with, who will be in the HHOF someday.

The Bobby Smith comparisons are fair as well, though I believe Vinny is better than him skill-wise for sure.
 

pluppe

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Apr 6, 2009
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I agree that points is a stronger indication of a players worth, almost all of the time with forwards.

He being 7th in his career so far doesn't necessarily mean that he will be in the HHOF but it does go to indicate that he will be in the discussion. His placement at the end of his career will give us more meaning than the snapshot right now.

I use it to compare how he compares career wise to all other players during his playing years and it's only one of many ways we need to look at him.

PPG is another way to look at it as well but then you are comparing players with 300 plus games difference played as well and it might get tricky if the scoring rates are quite different from one end of the comp to the other.

His last 3 seasons and age 31 doesn't bode well for his HHOF chances though IMO.

Ray Whitney 879 games played 0,853 ppg
Vincent Lecavalier 944 games played 0,847 ppg

still think it´s a HHOF argument?
 

Hardyvan123

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Jul 4, 2010
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Ray Whitney 879 games played 0,853 ppg
Vincent Lecavalier 944 games played 0,847 ppg

Still think it´s a HHOF argument?

I'll clarify when I said that he was in the argument.

It was more of an indication on HHOF voters might feel especially with his CUP heroics.

Of course that is becoming less likely unless he picks up his pace a bit, his last 3 seasons is trending towards falling out of it CUP heroics and all.

Personally from what he has done so far and unless he does something to improve his peak he wouldn't make my HHOF and would be quickly out of the discussion as well.
 

Yammer

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Oct 22, 2002
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Republic of East Van
Bumping this old thread because I was searching for this topic -- having random thoughts and thinking this exact question maybe cuz Nucks just played them and Vinnie is the captain.

I don't think that Vinnie is a mediocre player, not just because there are no mediocre NHLers but he is a star player, a captain, and a first line player. He would definitely be one of the main guys that the other team's coach would say, and look out for such and such, don't leave him alone and let's review this tape on him.

However a first overall pick is supposed to be, I dunno, something extra, right? So much hype about them as 18 year olds. And especially this one, "The Michael Jordan Of Hockey." We all smiled at that comment but it stuck in the back of my mind and some part of me expected or at least really hoped to see that, to see the best player in the league. Instead, I don't know if he has ever been the best player on the Lightning. Was he more effective than Brad Richards, more inspirational than Marty St Louis, more dangerous than Steve Stamkos? I don't know, I don't watch much Tampa. But from over here it doesn't feel like it.

This is a longish way of saying that Vinnie has had a good career so far that is tarnished mainly by the expectation that it would be legendary.
 

MadLuke

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Jan 18, 2011
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He peaked a bit higher that I thought he would, I remember my friends from Rimouski selling him so higher that what I was thinking that he would do. And his career start was kind of giving me reason, that from page title like the biggest prospect since Lemieux was very exaggerated (yes he was hyped, but not as much as Lindros).
 

tombombadil

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Jan 20, 2010
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West Kelowna, Canada
Vincent Lecavalier = Bobby Smith.

Both 6'4" #1 overall picks who came into the NHL with a ton of hype. Smith was at the time the best prospect since Lafleur and compared to Beliveau.

Both had one massive season where they lived up to all their potential/hype, but otherwise spent most of their careers as 'good' #1 centers who didn't quite meet expectations.

Both were the #1 center on a Cup winner.

Similar playing style, will have similar career totals.

well done!!
 

bassassin

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Apr 1, 2008
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Bumping this old thread because I was searching for this topic -- having random thoughts and thinking this exact question maybe cuz Nucks just played them and Vinnie is the captain.

I don't think that Vinnie is a mediocre player, not just because there are no mediocre NHLers but he is a star player, a captain, and a first line player. He would definitely be one of the main guys that the other team's coach would say, and look out for such and such, don't leave him alone and let's review this tape on him.

However a first overall pick is supposed to be, I dunno, something extra, right? So much hype about them as 18 year olds. And especially this one, "The Michael Jordan Of Hockey." We all smiled at that comment but it stuck in the back of my mind and some part of me expected or at least really hoped to see that, to see the best player in the league. Instead, I don't know if he has ever been the best player on the Lightning. Was he more effective than Brad Richards, more inspirational than Marty St Louis, more dangerous than Steve Stamkos? I don't know, I don't watch much Tampa. But from over here it doesn't feel like it.

This is a longish way of saying that Vinnie has had a good career so far that is tarnished mainly by the expectation that it would be legendary.

Yes he was more effective than Brad Richards for a few years (06-08), was more inspirational than MSL (led by play more than being a vocal leader though) and more dangerous than Stamkos (not as great a sniper (which shows how great Stamkos is in that regard given Vinny is a Rocket winner too!) but a much more dangerous playmaker, although Stamkos is improving in that regard)

From 06-08 he was without a doubt the best player on the Lightning, night in night out. The team had four forwards and two/three dmen worth a damn. He was out there for close to 25 minutes a game and absolutely dominant. The MVP line (MSL-Lecavalier-Prospal) was just insane in that time. MSL was playing second fiddle to him, but in a different role to now, more of an all round player as opposed to set up guy.

If Tampa had a goalie in the 06-07 playoffs they would have been much more of a threat, he was involved in a ridiculous amount of the Lightnings goals that series and was the only threat for the Lightning up front.

Just sad to see the decline, in 07-08 he scored at a 120 point pace for the first half of the season, then got injured it dropped to a 60 point pace for the second half. He has been injured ever since, and in his first properly healthy season now he just isn't the same. But he doesn't need to be now Tampa has Stamkos. If he puts up 30G 30A that is enough to be a great second line centre! (On track for roughly that now, 32G 29A 61P at this rate)
 

toob

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Dec 31, 2010
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Huge fan of Lecavalier, my favourite player. Started watching hockey in the 06-07 season, that season Lecavalier was just unstoppable, both regular season and playoffs.

Thats what makes it worse watching him now, not because he is a bad player. But because you see flashes of what he could do, but just not consistently. He was much more on form in the playoffs and has been more this year, just hope it maintains and he scores a PPG season.

Watching him tear up the scoreboard in 07-08 as well, while also getting into a lot of fights, that was his prime. Shame ****** hits like the one from Cooke ended that.

In my mind he will go down as a great player I mean he is likely to hit 1000 points given the length of his contract and has 11 consecutive 20+ goal seasons. But he will also go down as one of the most disappointing players to ever hit 1000 points as he could have done soo much more.

Didnt the Cooke hit happen later in the season a bit after Vinny's scoring dropped? I know injuries are a big factor of why he never reached those heights that he did circa 2007 but part of it has got to be inconsistency beyond injury.

But yeah i think Lecavalier was the best player in the world in the 07 season and in the first half of the 08 season he was just as good. He was scoring at a pace similar to Crosby last season and something like 10 points above the nearest player (i think Crosby actually).

It took him a little longer than expected to get there but i definitely expected him to continue hovering around 50 goal 100 points for a few more years so it is disappointing. I never had these insane and unfair expectations of him being like Mario Lemieux or the Michael Jordan of hockey but the guy was a top 5 talent in the league.

Now in his 30s under Boucher and with Stamkos there his role has definitely changed and hes improved defensively and doesnt mail it in as much like he did the few years before when the entire situation of the team was bad.

Still after the last playoffs i had high if somewhat unreasonable expectations of him and i expected him to play more with Marty and recapture his peak form. I never expected Stamkos would take himself to a whole other level though.
 

Anderson9

Registered User
Apr 11, 2009
317
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Kazan, Russia
and some more, adding to his discredit. Lecavalier blatantly goofed off in the lockout season, gaining weight and being a passenger on the roster of Ak Bars Kazan. Other stars on that team, Kovalev and Kovalchuk at least put in some effort some nights, even with a number of mutiple point games, Vinnie being by far the weakest center on the team.
 

diligent_d

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Jul 20, 2005
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Lecavalier has always reminded me of Pierre Turgeon, though Turgeon had better numbers earlier in his career.
 

Big Phil

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Nov 2, 2003
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Lecavalier has always reminded me of Pierre Turgeon, though Turgeon had better numbers earlier in his career.

I know Pierre Turgeon gets raked here a lot, but by the end of Vinny's career he will not have the value of Turgeon when talking about the HHOF. That's a shame, because if we did a thread in 2007 about whether Lecavalier will end up being better than Turgeon you would have had Lecavalier win in a landslide.

One big thing about Lecavalier that bothers me is this, he played his way OFF the 2010 Olympic team. In the summer of 2009 I remember almost a consensus of us believed that the centers for Canada would be Crosby, Thornton and Lecavalier. Then there'd be some battles with Staal, Getzlaf, etc. to fight the rest out. I mean, that was determined to be our depth down the middle. Vinny had a great season in 2007 and 2008, and a little worse in 2009 but the idea was that it was an off year. Then the 2009-'10 season starts and he's awful. Far down the pecking order on his own team. I remember him making a comment that he seems to be suffering from this tunnel vision. Basically he worked his way off the team at 29 years old and no one in their right mind would consider him for future Olympic teams. Stamkos turned out to be the center on Tampa that everyone thought would make it.

So I think Vinny will always suffer from the "unfulfilled potential" syndrome. I mean, this guy was the best prospect since Lindros when he was drafted #1 in 1998.
 

bassassin

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Apr 1, 2008
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Didnt the Cooke hit happen later in the season a bit after Vinny's scoring dropped? I know injuries are a big factor of why he never reached those heights that he did circa 2007 but part of it has got to be inconsistency beyond injury.

But yeah i think Lecavalier was the best player in the world in the 07 season and in the first half of the 08 season he was just as good. He was scoring at a pace similar to Crosby last season and something like 10 points above the nearest player (i think Crosby actually).

It took him a little longer than expected to get there but i definitely expected him to continue hovering around 50 goal 100 points for a few more years so it is disappointing. I never had these insane and unfair expectations of him being like Mario Lemieux or the Michael Jordan of hockey but the guy was a top 5 talent in the league.

Now in his 30s under Boucher and with Stamkos there his role has definitely changed and hes improved defensively and doesnt mail it in as much like he did the few years before when the entire situation of the team was bad.

Still after the last playoffs i had high if somewhat unreasonable expectations of him and i expected him to play more with Marty and recapture his peak form. I never expected Stamkos would take himself to a whole other level though.

Lecavalier injured his wrist roughly half way through the season, it was speculated at least and sure enough did have surgery on it later on. I would say the speculation was correct given he went from rarely being held off the scoresheet to 5 games in a row pointless. Vinny wasn't like that, when he was hot he WAS HOT.

Agreed Vinny looked great in the playoffs, IMO if the Lightning win another cup soon it happens before Marty retires and it is a combo of Marty, Vinny and Stammer leading the team.
 

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