Player Discussion Victor Olofsson (2014, 181st) – '18-19: Rochester #12 (AHL)

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joshjull

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Hope he gets to play with one of Sam/Jack.

This feels like a lot of the last two years, unplanned and just kind of happening.
I’m was hoping he got put with Mitts and have Sam on the other wing.

But you get your wish x2. He’s with both.


As for planning or not, I think its simply injuries are finally hitting the forward ranks. That’s why we’re seeing the call ups. Although Thompson went down as well so thats a twist.
 
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Chainshot

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Poor Nylander. All his good efforts, and he's rewarded with skating next to Sobotka. I'd rather see:
Olofsson - Eichel - Nylander
Skinner - Mittelstadt - Reinhart
Girgs - Larsson - Okposo
Sheary - Sobotka - Pominville (just put all the garbage together on one line)

That said, he did energize Sheary a few games back even with Sobbinguncontrollably at center. If those two play how they did in his second recall game, no worries.
 

GellMann

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They're doing exactly what they should do with Olofsson. I don't need him to look like Mike Hoffman right now, but I hope his play can make us giddy to see him in October.
 

sabrebuild

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I’m was hoping he got put with Mitts and have Sam on the other wing.

But you get your wish x2. He’s with both.


As for planning or not, I think its simply injuries are finally hitting the forward ranks. That’s why we’re seeing the call ups. Although Thompson went down as well so thats a twist.

Yup I would have been happy with either, which is good by me.

Ya the injuries is my point for its without a plan. A plan is when my 23 year old professional is ready I bring him up. Particularly when roster wise i have plenty of contracts i can send down for underperforming.

Just bringing him up when injuries happens is not a plan, its an emergency. Or just something that happened, not a well thought out plan for development.

Either way I hope he tears it up. We need some hope for next year.
 

joshjull

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Yup I would have been happy with either, which is good by me.

Ya the injuries is my point for its without a plan. A plan is when my 23 year old professional is ready I bring him up. Particularly when roster wise i have plenty of contracts i can send down for underperforming.

Just bringing him up when injuries happens is not a plan, its an emergency. Or just something that happened, not a well thought out plan for development.

Either way I hope he tears it up. We need some hope for next year.

The plan seems pretty straightforward. The prospects sent down to start the year were going to develop down there for the season. You can dislike the plan but its to still a plan.

The one thing I took issue with was leaving Tage up for as long as they did. They should have sent him down mid season and maybe brought up O’Regan. He’s the oldest prospect at 25yrs old and is a pending free agent. Might as well see what he has in the NHL before the season ends. Everyone else is still team controlled. Plus its a move mid season that shouldn’t disrupt what they’re trying to do in Rochester.

I have zero issue with them keeping Olofsson down for the entire season. Its his first year on NA ice and he’s a AHL rookie with only one remarkable season in the SHL under his belt. To me being 23yrs old doesn’t mean much or trump the reality of the previous sentence. His game has grown a ton. He is a much better player now than he was when he was sent down. Which at the end of the day was the purpose of sending him down and keeping him down. Mission accomplished.
 
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sabrebuild

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The plan seems pretty straightforward. The prospects sent down to start the year were going to develop down there for the season. You can dislike the plan but its to still a plan.

The one thing I took issue with was leaving Tage up For as long as they did. They should have sent Tage down mid season and maybe brought up O’Regan. He’s the oldest prospect at 25yrs old and is a pending free agent. Might as well see what he has in the NHL before theseason ends. Everyone else is still team controlled. Plus its a move mid season that shouldn’t disrupt what they’re trying to do in Rochester.

I have zero issue with them keeping Olofsson down for the entire season. Its his first year on NA ice and he’s a AHL rookie with only one remarkable season in the SHL under his belt. To me being 23yrs old doesn’t mean much or trump the reality of the previous sentence. His game has grown a ton. He is a much player now than he was when he was sent down. Which at the end of the day was the purpose of sending him down and keeping him down. Mission accomplished.

Its not a matter of disliking the plan. It's the lack of discipline or consistency of the plan.

Focusing on VO only, let's assume that the plan was he stays down all year, because we want him to improve his all around game. Great.

Then why is he here now? If we say injuries, that's not a good reason, you have other bodies to bring up. O'Regan is never going to be a good nhler. Use him, if the plan is improve VO thru the ahl.

To bring him up now, you disrupt him personally day to day stuff, you take him away from the team he has been growing on and developing with right before a playoff run, which should be tremendous experience.

All so that he can join this horrific coaching staff, on a lackluster team, to be fodder against teams with real playoff aspirations.

And then they will toss him back to the Amerks right before the playoffs.

That is not consistent to me. That is odd timing, based on injuries and disruptive to the alleged plan.

I'm not and was not opposed to VO or any of our prospects getting significant ahl time. What I am opposed to is inconsistent standards throughout the development process of most of our players.

And playing VO now is perfectly fine to me, but it doesn't really fit with a long term plan, as you assume for Botts.

I say assume, because at no point has Botts laid out a precise plan for anything and we are all guessing based on their actions and occasional comments.
 
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joshjull

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Its not a matter of disliking the plan. It's the lack of discipline or consistency of the plan.

Focusing on VO only, let's assume that the plan was he stays down all year, because we want him to improve his all around game. Great.

Then why is he here now? If we say injuries, that's not a good reason, you have other bodies to bring up. O'Regan is never going to be a good nhler. Use him, if the plan is improve VO thru the ahl.

To bring him up now, you disrupt him personally day to day stuff, you take him away from the team he has been growing on and developing with right before a playoff run, which should be tremendous experience.

All so that he can join this horrific coaching staff, on a lackluster team, to be fodder against teams with real playoff aspirations.

And then they will toss him back to the Amerks right before the playoffs.

That is not consistent to me. That is odd timing, based on injuries and disruptive to the alleged plan.

I'm not and was not opposed to VO or any of our prospects getting significant ahl time. What I am opposed to is inconsistent standards throughout the development process of most of our players.

And playing VO now is perfectly fine to me, but it doesn't really fit with a long term plan, as you assume for Botts.

I say assume, because at no point has Botts laid out a precise plan for anything and we are all guessing based on their actions and occasional comments.

That was some amazing mental gymnastics to complain about something that doesn’t warrant it.

Olofsson was sent down to grow and round out his game. Its already happened. He is now a key all situations cog for the Amerks. The next step is to see what he can do in the AHL playoffs. I’d argue this is the best pro season of his career with more hopefully to come in the playoffs.

I fail to see how a small sample of games with us (6 at most) is going to undo or reverse all the growth/development ingrained in him over 64gms in the AHL.

I’m no fan of Housley and how he handles young guys. He messed up Guhle last year and Pilut this year after their stints with us. They weren’t the same after getting sent back. But those two were here for MUCH longer tours of duty up than a possible 6 games for Olofsson. Plus they played a position I’m sure Phil got involved with more.

I think Olofsson came up as a swap for Tage not an injury so I may be wrong on injuries being why he came up. Nylander came up due to injuries and Jack’s suspension.
 
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GellMann

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I think their handling of Sabres Prospects as a whole has been problematic, but I think Victor Olofsson's journey has gone swimmingly and is currently at a status of "best case scenario."

We might actually get a homegrown, late pick, top 6 forward as soon as next year. I'm pretty excited.
 

Icicle

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That was some amazing mental gymnastics to complain about something that doesn’t warrant it.

Olofsson was sent down to grow and round out his game. Its already happened. He is now a key all situations cog for the Amerks. The next step is to see what he can do in the AHL playoffs. I’d argue this is the best pro season of his career with more hopefully to come in the playoffs.

I fail to see how a small sample of games with us (6 at most) is going to undo or reverse all the growth/development ingrained in him over 64gms in the AHL.

I’m no fan of Housley and how he handles young guys. He messed up Guhle last year and Pilut this year after their stints with us. They weren’t the same after getting sent back. But those two were here for MUCH longer tours of duty up than a possible 6 games for Olofsson. Plus they played a position I’m sure Phil got involved with more.

I think Olofsson came up as a swap for Tage not an injury so I may be wrong on injuries being why he came up. Nylander came up due to injuries and Jack’s suspension.

Lol Pilut did himself in. He learned he isn’t physical enough yet to play in the NHL and lost his confidence in the process. No coach is going to change that outcome for him
 

sabrebuild

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That was some amazing mental gymnastics to complain about something that doesn’t warrant it.

Olofsson was sent down to grow and round out his game. Its already happened. He is now a key all situations cog for the Amerks. The next step is to see what he can do in the AHL playoffs. I’d argue this is the best pro season of his career with more hopefully to come in the playoffs.

I fail to see how a small sample of games with us (6 at most) is going to undo or reverse all the growth/development ingrained in him over 64gms in the AHL.

I’m no fan of Housley and how he handles young guys. He messed up Guhle last year and Pilut this year after their stints with us. They weren’t the same after getting sent back. But those two were here for MUCH longer tours of duty up than a possible 6 games for Olofsson. Plus they played a position I’m sure Phil got involved with more.

I think Olofsson came up as a swap for Tage not an injury so I may be wrong on injuries being why he came up. Nylander came up due to injuries and Jack’s suspension.

Sigh, what you call mental gymnastics, I call basic logic.

Before you repeat yourself again about how this year is so much superior to last year for him, I’m happy he has played well. But if you think about it honestly you would have to agree that there is no guarantee or really any historical reference that tells us Olofsson would definitely only play well if given a whole year in the ahl. He might have grown into the nhl just like Dahlin and developed his game just fine. And at his age, we quite literally talking about his athletic prime and history tells us that most non-elite nhler are basically a shadow of themselves by 30. So using this whole year for what maybe or maybe not was the best development path is hardly for sure the right choice. What if he was good enough to be a 20 goal guy this year with defense like Skinner? Am I really going to cry that he might have missed out on a touch of ahl polish? This whole development plan sounds far more appropriate for Mitts and Tage.

But that’s not the discussion we are having. It’s about whether they were consistent with assumed “plan” for Olofsson.

And playing the whole season, but if there is a random injury we will call him up for the last 5 games, is not a logical plan. It’s not that Phil will destroy him. And that was not the argument. The argument is simply why bother if the focus is on building him in the minors? Particularly as they get ready for the playoffs.

The obvious answer to that is they want to reward him. I think that is reasonable. But it doesn’t jive with the plan. It also requires everyone to believe that he would have been damaged in his development by getting 5 games two months ago, when both the team could have used help and he also deserved a reward because he was a team leader and quite acclimated to North America.

I get it, you’re looking for bright spots for Botts. And I know these types of distinctions can be tricky. But just waiting for random injuries to happen, who knows when, is not a plan.

Think about it this way, if some injuries had happened in early December, let’s say Tage and Sobotka, under this “plan” would Olofsson have been called up? He was playing great and would deserve it. Would that have disrupted his development? If he performed well, do you think they would send him back down?

That’s my point. If injuries are all that decide when someone gets brought up, it’s not a plan, it’s crisis management.

Now as I said before, this is all speculation, by you for saying the plan was for him to stay down all year, by me for what they would do if injuries had happened early.

But this whole conversation started with me saying him getting called up at this point, feels unplanned. And that isn’t really arguable, if the response is just oh well injuries happened. Leaving when a player comes up to, ehh if/when an injury happens is not a precise plan. It’s happenstance.
 
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kp2575

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Sigh, what you call mental gymnastics, I call basic logic.

Before you repeat yourself again about how this year is so much superior to last year for him, I’m happy he has played well. But if you think about it honestly you would have to agree that there is no guarantee or really any historical reference that tells us Olofsson would definitely only play well if given a whole year in the ahl. He might have grown into the nhl just like Dahlin and developed his game just fine. And at his age, we quite literally talking about his athletic prime and history tells us that most non-elite nhler are basically a shadow of themselves by 30. So using this whole year for what maybe or maybe not was the best development path is hardly for sure the right choice. What if he was good enough to be a 20 goal guy this year with defense like Skinner? Am I really going to cry that he might have missed out on a touch of ahl polish? This whole development plan sounds far more appropriate for Mitts and Tage.

But that’s not the discussion we are having. It’s about whether they were consistent with assumed “plan” for Olofsson.

And playing the whole season, but if there is a random injury we will call him up for the last 5 games, is not a logical plan. It’s not that Phil will destroy him. And that was not the argument. The argument is simply why bother if the focus is on building him in the minors? Particularly as they get ready for the playoffs.

The obvious answer to that is they want to reward him. I think that is reasonable. But it doesn’t jive with the plan. It also requires everyone to believe that he would have been damaged in his development by getting 5 games two months ago, when both the team could have used help and he also deserved a reward because he was a team leader and quite acclimated to North America.

I get it, you’re looking for bright spots for Botts. And I know these types of distinctions can be tricky. But just waiting for random injuries to happen, who knows when, is not a plan.

Think about it this way, if some injuries had happened in early December, let’s say Tage and Sobotka, under this “plan” would Olofsson have been called up? He was playing great and would deserve it. Would that have disrupted his development? If he performed well, do you think they would send him back down?

That’s my point. If injuries are all that decide when someone gets brought up, it’s not a plan, it’s crisis management.

Now as I said before, this is all speculation, by you for saying the plan was for him to stay down all year, by me for what they would do if injuries had happened early.

But this whole conversation started with me saying him getting called up at this point, feels unplanned. And that isn’t really arguable, if the response is just oh well injuries happened. Leaving when a player comes up to, ehh if/when an injury happens is not a precise plan. It’s happenstance.

Or you like reward a guy that did everything you asked of him, refined his game, and became the leading scorer of your AHL affiliate with a taste of the NHL and higher pay. It kind of just seems like the right thing to do, elaborate team development plan or not...
 

sabrebuild

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Or you like reward a guy that did everything you asked of him, refined his game, and became the leading scorer of your AHL affiliate with a taste of the NHL and higher pay. It kind of just seems like the right thing to do, elaborate team development plan or not...

Something I personally totally agree with, and previously said I’m happy.

The two things are not antithetical.
 
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joshjull

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Sigh, what you call mental gymnastics, I call basic logic.

Before you repeat yourself again about how this year is so much superior to last year for him, I’m happy he has played well. But if you think about it honestly you would have to agree that there is no guarantee or really any historical reference that tells us Olofsson would definitely only play well if given a whole year in the ahl. He might have grown into the nhl just like Dahlin and developed his game just fine. And at his age, we quite literally talking about his athletic prime and history tells us that most non-elite nhler are basically a shadow of themselves by 30. So using this whole year for what maybe or maybe not was the best development path is hardly for sure the right choice. What if he was good enough to be a 20 goal guy this year with defense like Skinner? Am I really going to cry that he might have missed out on a touch of ahl polish? This whole development plan sounds far more appropriate for Mitts and Tage.

But that’s not the discussion we are having. It’s about whether they were consistent with assumed “plan” for Olofsson.

And playing the whole season, but if there is a random injury we will call him up for the last 5 games, is not a logical plan. It’s not that Phil will destroy him. And that was not the argument. The argument is simply why bother if the focus is on building him in the minors? Particularly as they get ready for the playoffs.

The obvious answer to that is they want to reward him. I think that is reasonable. But it doesn’t jive with the plan. It also requires everyone to believe that he would have been damaged in his development by getting 5 games two months ago, when both the team could have used help and he also deserved a reward because he was a team leader and quite acclimated to North America.

I get it, you’re looking for bright spots for Botts. And I know these types of distinctions can be tricky. But just waiting for random injuries to happen, who knows when, is not a plan.

Think about it this way, if some injuries had happened in early December, let’s say Tage and Sobotka, under this “plan” would Olofsson have been called up? He was playing great and would deserve it. Would that have disrupted his development? If he performed well, do you think they would send him back down?

That’s my point. If injuries are all that decide when someone gets brought up, it’s not a plan, it’s crisis management.

Now as I said before, this is all speculation, by you for saying the plan was for him to stay down all year, by me for what they would do if injuries had happened early.

But this whole conversation started with me saying him getting called up at this point, feels unplanned. And that isn’t really arguable, if the response is just oh well injuries happened. Leaving when a player comes up to, ehh if/when an injury happens is not a precise plan. It’s happenstance.

:facepalm:

1) You bring up a “what if we needed someone in December” scenario as part of your argument. You mean when we actually did in late December and called up CJ Smith instead of Olofsson. Then in late February when we needed a forward for a few days it was O’Regan not Olofsson. Then a few weeks ago it was Nylander not Olofsson. Its almost as if they had a plan to keep Olofsson down for the bulk of the season for development purposes as well as playing in some big games the last couple weekends.

2) Putting a young/inexperienced player or players in the AHL to work on their game with no intention of calling them up (barring injury) is about as old and common a development tactic as there is. I find it very hard to believe you're not aware of this.

3) I also find your framing of how I think injuries impact things to be a bit of a crock. If teams get rocked with injuries of course they have no choice but to call up a bunch of guys. If that happened we would have seen Olofsson sooner. But otherwise they would try to avoid calling him up. Which they clearly did as individual call ups were necessary others got the call.

4) Oh goody the pointless reference to average peak performances. He is already an outlier as a 7th rounder who broke out only one year ago. He still needed to grow his overall game on top of transition to NA hockey to be NHL ready. That need doesn't go away because of his age and where it falls on those charts. He had one strong goal scoring year in the SHL. Honestly he probably wouldn’t even be here if he handn’t.

The funny thing about bringing up and using those averages is what it means going forward. Basically the best we will ever get from him will be next year and then it will be down hill from there. Do you actually think that as well? I’m guessing not and it's selective use of those numbers just to complain.


5) As for the whole conversion being about why Olofsson came up now and if it was planned. As I mentioned in a previous post, Olofsson was brought up in a swap for Tage not due to injury. Seems fairly logical to assume that was planned. Particularly with the big games against Charlotte and Toronto over with and the Amerks 1 or 2 points from clinching a playoff spot. Then add in Tage needing time to adapt to the Amerks and the coach’s there learning what they have.

You also need stop with these straw men arguments that I’m arguing the only way Olofsson could have developed was playing the AHL all season. Or that have I argued his development would be derailed if he came up 2 months ago for a couple games. I haven’t argued either and they are bs strawmen arguments you keep bringing up. I‘ve argued how they chose to go about this season with him worked out great. Which is great for him and us going forward.I’m happy about it which seems like a fairly normal response to something like this.
 
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La Cosa Nostra

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Those players peak at 24 argument only applies to the elite prospects when drafted who entered the league at 18.

He has 6 more seasons to go before he even turns 30. And seeing how players in their early and mid 30s are still producing makes me OK with leaving Olofsson down. Not every player can make the jump to NA hockey. Its not like he developed in Plymouth or Moose Jaw.

My hope is he plays here next season, scores 20 goals, we re-sign him for 5-6 years on a team friendly deal and he then develops fully to become a 30-40-70 type player.
 
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