Player Discussion: Victor Hedman

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HoseEmDown

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Robert you say you want us to be a contender in two years and think acquiring unproven players like Vatanen and Gelinas are the answer? They have come out of the gates hot and put up points but that doesn't mean they're going to maintain that scoring rate and improve defensively. MAB was a powerplay superstar so calling them that isn't a ringing endorsement to me. Sure Barberio needs work he was just a rookie this season with plenty of room to grow, he outproduced Gelinas in the Q and the A so if giving the chance can't see why he can't do the same in the NHL. Anaheim has only 3 good defenders in Fowler, Lindholm and Beauchemin the rest aren't good and those three are left-handed so Vatanen should be able to play on the right side. I agree we need a D upgrade but one proven guy not a bunch of unproven kids when we can just play ours.

I don't get your hate for 0.5 PPG player's, that doesn't mean they're garbage and easily replaceable. Killorn brings a lot more then just his points, he was arguably our best forward in the playoffs if we had more like him we might've won a few games. He's still only in his second year with plenty of room to grow and improve his scoring. Bringing in all these D will just cause a logjam at that position because we can't play them all. We need to play Sustr and Barberio to see if they are legit NHL talents.
 

Lord Stan 2020

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Robert you say you want us to be a contender in two years and think acquiring unproven players like Vatanen and Gelinas are the answer? They have come out of the gates hot and put up points but that doesn't mean they're going to maintain that scoring rate and improve defensively. MAB was a powerplay superstar so calling them that isn't a ringing endorsement to me. Sure Barberio needs work he was just a rookie this season with plenty of room to grow, he outproduced Gelinas in the Q and the A so if giving the chance can't see why he can't do the same in the NHL. Anaheim has only 3 good defenders in Fowler, Lindholm and Beauchemin the rest aren't good and those three are left-handed so Vatanen should be able to play on the right side. I agree we need a D upgrade but one proven guy not a bunch of unproven kids when we can just play ours.

I don't get your hate for 0.5 PPG player's, that doesn't mean they're garbage and easily replaceable. Killorn brings a lot more then just his points, he was arguably our best forward in the playoffs if we had more like him we might've won a few games. He's still only in his second year with plenty of room to grow and improve his scoring. Bringing in all these D will just cause a logjam at that position because we can't play them all. We need to play Sustr and Barberio to see if they are legit NHL talents.



First Gelinas and Vatanen would be answers to power play PRODUCTION!! Just pieces to upgrade something that needs an upgrade.

Second Barberio IS VERY SIMPLE HE IS NOT BIG ENOUGH OR TOUGH ENOUGH FOR THE TRANSITION OF THE NHL. IMHO he will be a guy you always have to protect and will be a guy who tops out if lucky as a number 4? To me thats a whatever he can stay or go but whatever?

Third your so called solution one proven guy? Whats on your mind? Who is this guy? Cause imho whomever it is WILL GUT US AND MOVE US BACKWARDS. To me that is stupid. Don't need to gut us. Getting a legit two would put us backwards. If you have another solution viable spit it out. I want to hear it a real solution? Who is the guy we target so I will go put it out there to show what we have to give up? We have done plenty of this to see guys we tried to get and all of these trades do not make anyone on this board too happy on what we will have to give up? So you got a deal out there we would all I am sure LOVE TO HEAR IT?

P.S. How did playing ours look in the real world of playoffs? HOW THE HELL ARE WE GONNA GET PAST BOSTON WITH WHAT WE HAVE ON DEFENSE?

Fourth I dont hate 0.5 players. I have spelled this out maybe you missed it any kid who does that is a winner. The problem is Killorn has had time to improve. He leveled off instead of improving on his year the year before? I remember when I thought as you seem to think about guys. Was redwings not sure the year but Mike Knuble was a prospect I LOVED. He wound up having a very good career. Yet I got why detroit moved him as they did.

Fifth how did that work out in the playoffs by all means lets play under talented basically too small not skilled enough not ready or to slow d and see how that works in playoffs?

We got plenty of studs coming. Killorn is simply replaceable. Killorn was not even close to the best forward in the playoffs thats laughable honestly. I look for certain things if guys dont show those things I pretty much think you can peg them pretty well sure is a marty out there here and there and you make a mistake. The problem is we have too many bodies. Making certain guys expandable is not personal is business. Killorn is expandable and that means hats off to guys who have shown themselves not to be.

There is no question Sustr is NHL material but he doesnt need to play? He can be in AHL and that would be best for him. KoekKoek is the same? Let them develop hell even over develop? We dont need to rush these guys? IT TOOK HEDMAN FOUR YEARS? Do we want to waste four years of this forward core and bishop plus guds/vasi potential waiting on these kids to get their acts together?

Or is it simply smarter to bury them overdevelop them and get some options more NHL ready and make our D balance out to the rest of the other two areas IE How deep our goaltending and forward potential is? OUR D IS WEAK.

Core is carle gudas and hedman. Sustr should be playing in 1-2 years along with koekkoek. Barberio has to play. What else do we have? NOTHING. Brewer is gone next year they resign salo I will blow a gasket.
 

Stamper

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Hose the case about Vatanen not playing is mind-blowing to 99% of hockey fans, especially when you consider the fact that the Ducks got atleast a point out of 68~% of the games Vatanen was playing in.

But Boudreau hates him for some unknown reason, could be motivational or attitude for all we know, but calling Vatanen unproven is a bit of a stretch, considering he has produced decently in NHL,A and was third best Dman in the Olympics, where he was given a real chance to play with his strengths, did you know Boudreau gives him mostly defensive zone starts and no pp time?:facepalm: With this chance given him he ended up behind the slobs like Karlsson and Doughty :sarcasm: And I really don't see Barberio doing that, even if he had played for TC

And yeah, Killorn is expendable because he isn't really worth what he will cost us in the future, and at same time his trade value is high, so wouldn't really be suprised at all if he ended up in Phoenix, Jersey or Anaheim :laugh:
 

HoseEmDown

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Robert I feel having a healthy Stamkos all year, keeping Hedman on the PP and putting Callahan in front of the net should help our PP. Getting Kostka and Salo off the 2nd unit should also help.

How is Barberio not big enough? Sure he needs to add some muscle but he's bigger then Vatanen and similar to Carle. Also I can easily see us shipping Barberio off and he turns into Dan Boyle for another team. He's got the offensive game Boyle has, he's bigger then Boyle he just needs to work on his defensive game. Boyle was always paired with a defensively reliable player so he can use his offense don't see why that would be an issue with Barberio.

To get a true #2 will cost us a lot but I think our #2 is Sustr but needs time, not 1-2 years in the A like you say. He's similar aged to Gelinas and Vatanen so don't see why he would need more time in the A but not them? He wore down late in the season but a lot of rookies do their first year. We can go with a stop gap like Gilbert if he hits FA or try for Shattenkirk who'll cost a bit but not gut us.

Killorn is expendable to an extent, if we get the right piece back them I'm all for moving him. Stone isn't bad but think Sustr has higher upside so rather play him. We don't have a Killorn replacement until Erne arrives, Drouin and Namestnikov don't bring the power game he does. Panik has struggled so we can't rely on him for that, Connolly is more finesse, we have Palat and Cally so I guess we can live without Killorn but think his value can still rise and we hold him until Erne is ready.

I agree we are a little thin in D prospects with big time potential but I see us just one player short. Hedman-missing piece, Carle-Sustr, Brewer-Gudas with Barberio as the 7th is just like our D to start the year which worked great till Gudas hit a wall, Salo's age caught up to him and Carle forgot how to play. We get a marginal Salo upgrade with offseason improvement from our 3 rookies we can be better then last season.
 

Lord Stan 2020

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Robert I feel having a healthy Stamkos all year, keeping Hedman on the PP and putting Callahan in front of the net should help our PP. Getting Kostka and Salo off the 2nd unit should also help.

How is Barberio not big enough? Sure he needs to add some muscle but he's bigger then Vatanen and similar to Carle. Also I can easily see us shipping Barberio off and he turns into Dan Boyle for another team. He's got the offensive game Boyle has, he's bigger then Boyle he just needs to work on his defensive game. Boyle was always paired with a defensively reliable player so he can use his offense don't see why that would be an issue with Barberio.

To get a true #2 will cost us a lot but I think our #2 is Sustr but needs time, not 1-2 years in the A like you say. He's similar aged to Gelinas and Vatanen so don't see why he would need more time in the A but not them? He wore down late in the season but a lot of rookies do their first year. We can go with a stop gap like Gilbert if he hits FA or try for Shattenkirk who'll cost a bit but not gut us.

Killorn is expendable to an extent, if we get the right piece back them I'm all for moving him. Stone isn't bad but think Sustr has higher upside so rather play him. We don't have a Killorn replacement until Erne arrives, Drouin and Namestnikov don't bring the power game he does. Panik has struggled so we can't rely on him for that, Connolly is more finesse, we have Palat and Cally so I guess we can live without Killorn but think his value can still rise and we hold him until Erne is ready.

I agree we are a little thin in D prospects with big time potential but I see us just one player short. Hedman-missing piece, Carle-Sustr, Brewer-Gudas with Barberio as the 7th is just like our D to start the year which worked great till Gudas hit a wall, Salo's age caught up to him and Carle forgot how to play. We get a marginal Salo upgrade with offseason improvement from our 3 rookies we can be better then last season.

My friend I 100% disagree.

Killorns power game? WTH? Killorn has a power game? You got to be kidding me?

Seriously namestnikov plays same style as palat which is more of a power game better defensively than killorn.

Namestnikov is also like Johnson pass the puck go directly to net etc.. is natural and does it all the time killer has times he doesnt and that is frustrating yes he is gonna get better in time:)


Shattenkirk would absolutely GUT US. They want a top center. If he was available they will get a top center. Meaning we would have to give up TYJO plus. If that isnt gutting us I dont know what is?

I would love fayne or gilbert if price was right. I dont think the price will be right.


Here is the true problem and what I worry on myself.
We got lucky bishop had a career year. I do not see him hitting those numbers or any goalie basically for a full season. Not what he did first half with the PITIFUL defense we have and it is PITIFUL.

We had this issue with goalies for years. Tried lindback didnt work brought in bishop something finally works. That is what is needed now with the defense.

I do not think even WEBER coming could keep bishops stats as great as they were last year. Meaning one guy is not enough to me to sustain what he did. People can disagree if they want and maybe bishop is hasek but I think he will wind up being normal especially if the d plays like it did all year giving away odd man rushes over pinching letting guys into zone and setting up and not attacking the power play when on defense etc.

Sustr is one of only two righties he aint going to the AHL I was making a point. I like to overdevelop Defensemen just like I like to overdevelop goalies. I see no harm in it. Most kids that do that come in a lot better and seem to have higher success rates.

With Sustr we still have only 5 defensemen. You can name the others but they are primarily worthless. Barberio doesnt have it not calling him a bust yet but all the crap people said about paquette in playoffs go watch barberio jeezus he was a friggin train wreck and cost lindback and our team wins in my humble opinion. Not that many others did better besides brewer and hedman. Even though brewer was beat a bit by speed he wasnt beat by doing things entirely uncorrectly?

I dont see the love and fascination of barberio lol DAN BOYLE? I mean really? HAHA
If that happens I will become happiest man in Tampa but talking about over projection of a prospect?

Barberio on defense looks 100% like lindback looked the first 98% of the year in NET. PANIC MODE he aint comfortable he rushes and doesnt make the right decisions he cant work the boards as said is not big enough or doesnt choose to protect self good enough where he loses those battles constantly.

I have watched Vatanen he has a major swagger and confidence he wins those battles kind of like palat he aint the biggest guy he just attacks others correctly. Barberio I have not seen do that. To me he looks and plays scared. He also has seems to have no idea most of the time when to pinch not to pinch etc.

I aint giving up on him but I want at least TWO NEW GUYS on this team who look like they have a clue and know what they are doing.

Vatanen is not the end all Vatanen is because he looks like a 45-60 point guy who is adequate at playing defense. Never gonna be great probably but he looks like boyle. To say barberio looks like boyle I have no idea where your coming from seriously. He plays scared I dont remember boyle playing scared ever. It has been a long time since boyle started though so maybe im wrong.

Could simply be confidence thing with barberio but he needs to get past that pretty dammed quickly.

Hell smith for detroit to me is much better imho and I dont want him either for them:)
 
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HoseEmDown

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Who was the one crashing the net scoring goals and setting up others in the playoffs it was Killorn. Sure he's not a true power forward but he can do an adequate job.

Trading Johnson plus a pick for Shattenkirk isn't gutting us. We may have 2 1sts so moving one in a weak draft isn't bad at all. Sure we lose Johnson but Namestnikov should be able to fill the 3C spot or Drouin 1C with Stamkos still on the wing. We have replacements for Johnson.

I said Barberio could turn into a Boyle type defender I didn't say he would. Boyle wasn't the player he was when we acquired him from the Panthers, his defensive game was weak and he was known for his offense only. Barberio has the offensive game to match Boyle's or Vatanens. Barberio wasn't put in a great position to get a ton of points this season and he made a bunch of mistakes trying to be too offensive. I think a Barberio-Gudas 3rd pair would be darn good and it wouldn't cost us anything. Hopefully Barberio takes the next step next season because it's his last shot with us with Koekkoek waiting in the wings.
 

Lord Stan 2020

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Who was the one crashing the net scoring goals and setting up others in the playoffs it was Killorn. Sure he's not a true power forward but he can do an adequate job.

Trading Johnson plus a pick for Shattenkirk isn't gutting us. We may have 2 1sts so moving one in a weak draft isn't bad at all. Sure we lose Johnson but Namestnikov should be able to fill the 3C spot or Drouin 1C with Stamkos still on the wing. We have replacements for Johnson.

I said Barberio could turn into a Boyle type defender I didn't say he would. Boyle wasn't the player he was when we acquired him from the Panthers, his defensive game was weak and he was known for his offense only. Barberio has the offensive game to match Boyle's or Vatanens. Barberio wasn't put in a great position to get a ton of points this season and he made a bunch of mistakes trying to be too offensive. I think a Barberio-Gudas 3rd pair would be darn good and it wouldn't cost us anything. Hopefully Barberio takes the next step next season because it's his last shot with us with Koekkoek waiting in the wings.


I feel our defense is thus

1 hedman
2 x
3 x
4 carle
5 brewer
6 gudas
7 barberio sustr everyone else

I dont see the offense of barberio I get your going by his 61 point year but I will say he is basically a 40 point guy and probably had a lucky year in a magical year for that club? and as a pro kinda like a carle and his strengths weaknesses are compared to carle faster same type of shot slightly better passing and vision but a decent amount worse on defense. I see barberio at best as a future number four as a lower 30 point guy and not a power play qb guy cause sure fast enough to get back but not good enough to stop guys if does over pinch get manhandled and lose a puck and not that much of a shot to make it as power play quarter back. The shot is just not that strong. etc...

This is what I see so far. Hope I am wrong.
 

HoseEmDown

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I feel our defense is thus

1 hedman
2 x
3 x
4 carle
5 brewer
6 gudas
7 barberio sustr everyone else

I dont see the offense of barberio I get your going by his 61 point year but I will say he is basically a 40 point guy and probably had a lucky year in a magical year for that club? and as a pro kinda like a carle and his strengths weaknesses are compared to carle faster same type of shot slightly better passing and vision but a decent amount worse on defense. I see barberio at best as a future number four as a lower 30 point guy and not a power play qb guy cause sure fast enough to get back but not good enough to stop guys if does over pinch get manhandled and lose a puck and not that much of a shot to make it as power play quarter back. The shot is just not that strong. etc...

This is what I see so far. Hope I am wrong.

I see the lineup as
1. Hedman
2. X
3. Carle
4. Sustr
5. Gudas
6. Brewer
7. Barberio

Barberio's last 3 years of junior were 46, 45, 60 his 3 years in the AHL were 31, 61, 42 that seems like more then just a one year wonder. Gelinas' last 3 in junior were 39, 31, 44 and his 2 in the AHL were 37, 22 just looking at that Barberio seems the better offensive player. He may be one of the player's who can't translate that to the NHL but I'd give him more time before writing him off. It's hard to compare him to Vatanen since he played in Europe but his one season in the AHL he had 45 points which is pretty good. If Barberio even turns into Carle that's good for us, a 30-40 point D is a good thing to have.
 

The Macho King

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Barbs has shown amazing offensive instincts at times - he just needs some defensive stability and comfort at the NHL level. He's going to be a project, but it's one that if we're patient could really pay off.
 

DFC

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Maybe this is a stupid question, but I honestly can't come up with an answer: Why is Mark Barberio a defenseman?

As a forward, he'd be at least as valuable as a guy like Teddy Purcell. It really seems like the only reason Barbs is a defenseman is because in his past some coach thought it would be cool if he could develop the next Paul Coffey.
 

Lord Stan 2020

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I see the lineup as
1. Hedman
2. X
3. Carle
4. Sustr
5. Gudas
6. Brewer
7. Barberio

Barberio's last 3 years of junior were 46, 45, 60 his 3 years in the AHL were 31, 61, 42 that seems like more then just a one year wonder. Gelinas' last 3 in junior were 39, 31, 44 and his 2 in the AHL were 37, 22 just looking at that Barberio seems the better offensive player. He may be one of the player's who can't translate that to the NHL but I'd give him more time before writing him off. It's hard to compare him to Vatanen since he played in Europe but his one season in the AHL he had 45 points which is pretty good. If Barberio even turns into Carle that's good for us, a 30-40 point D is a good thing to have.


Those two cannot be allowed to play together that is a train wreck tooo slow for real.

To dfc I could see barbs as a very good forward myself.
 

HoseEmDown

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Those two cannot be allowed to play together that is a train wreck tooo slow for real.

To dfc I could see barbs as a very good forward myself.

I was thinking we'd go 7D like you like with Barberio splitting with the two to add speed and be the puck mover. Brewer-Gudas wouldn't be bad with defensive zone starts as they are the strongest in our zone and should prevent us from being pinned in.

Barberio would seem like a JT Brown to me if a forward. All speed lacking in finishing.
 

Lord Stan 2020

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I was thinking we'd go 7D like you like with Barberio splitting with the two to add speed and be the puck mover. Brewer-Gudas wouldn't be bad with defensive zone starts as they are the strongest in our zone and should prevent us from being pinned in.

Barberio would seem like a JT Brown to me if a forward. All speed lacking in finishing.

I actually think barberio would be quite a finisher as he shows glimpses at times on rush as a forward. His problem is being overworked bad decisions in d zone in offensive zone if he was aggressor I think it probably works to his advantage a lot more often.

Think he would be a very hard guy to play against and a lot better overall than say jt brown so far. Even though as had said can see jt brown being like darren helm long term so he is a keeper too.
 

DFC

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I actually think barberio would be quite a finisher as he shows glimpses at times on rush as a forward. His problem is being overworked bad decisions in d zone in offensive zone if he was aggressor I think it probably works to his advantage a lot more often.

Think he would be a very hard guy to play against and a lot better overall than say jt brown so far. Even though as had said can see jt brown being like darren helm long term so he is a keeper too.

I think, as a forward, Barbs could help with our zone entry. He can generate a lot of speed with the puck and he's capable of a few moves.

I just don't see how his skillset lends itself to defense better than forward.
 

chasespace

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Maybe this is a stupid question, but I honestly can't come up with an answer: Why is Mark Barberio a defenseman?

As a forward, he'd be at least as valuable as a guy like Teddy Purcell. It really seems like the only reason Barbs is a defenseman is because in his past some coach thought it would be cool if he could develop the next Paul Coffey.

I do wonder if Tampa will do what San Jose did with Burns and try to convert him to forward.
 

HoseEmDown

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I do wonder if Tampa will do what San Jose did with Burns and try to convert him to forward.

We have too much depth at forward and we lack a defender like him. Think we stick with him on D and hope he figures it out.
 

Stamper

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We have too much depth at forward and we lack a defender like him. Think we stick with him on D and hope he figures it out.

First you say you prefer proven guys in our roster and then you're all in for giving Barberio a chance, which will probably go to waste but nvm :)

And, to my endless amuse, Boudreau has gotten some god-given revelation of how to use Vatanen properly, it took him 2 years :facepalm:, and if he does continue to use him,properly he will probably become untouchable, unfortunately :(
 

xteesy

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http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=730777&cmpid=nhl-twt

Article: patience with hedman paying off.

What do you guys feel the odds are for hedman winning the norris this year? Any chance at all? I think if stralman can play with him and is as good as advertised he has a legit shot myself!!

I think that I am superstitious and that it is dangerous to discuss such things.

Honestly, probably best to not jinx it ;) But since you asked and to be realistic I'd say 1 in 20.
 

Lord Stan 2020

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jeez I forgot we are the spooky group:) haha

I am just going out on a limb and asking what do you guys think of him pairing with stralman and is that enough to give him a legit shot at that title not that we ever get voted for anything except when we must get awarded it haha
 
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