Viability of a Europe expansion

[BigBadBruins7708]

time zones are too much of a hurdle logistically.

first off, the lowest time zone change is 5 hours (Boston to London). The flight is ~7 hours.

With the time zones there is no way to make it work. You either play the games at a normal time on their end and they're then on at 1-2am here. Or you make it so theyre on at 7-8 here, but play at 12-1 over there.

Also, Western Conference fans bitch and moan about travel non stop as it is. Now youre going to double their travel time to go to Europe (~6 hours LA to Boston vs 13+ hours LA to Europe).

and that isnt even getting into whether or not the Euro cities will support the franchises over their own national leagues, or at a level needed to sustain an NHL franchise

 

[Nino33]

Do they have NHL type arenas in Europe with 17k+ seats and 75+ luxury suites? I was always under the impression the rinks and corporate sponsorship were smaller in Europe for hockey, am I completely wrong?

Here's the KHL rink capacities Start of the season’s attendance: the second-best ever
The 19 Russian clubs average 8263 capacity, the 6 other clubs average 11281 (there's only one team with a capacity above 15K).

The KHL's second best ever start for attendance is seeing the league average 6238 fans per game (averaging 5962 in Russia and 7225 outside of Russia). The KHL is averaging 69.9% full this year; as a comparison, in the NHL the lowest team is at 80.3% 2018-2019 NHL Attendance - National Hockey League - ESPN

In addition to the challenges of attendance capacity and corporate sponsorship, my understanding is the ticket prices are significantly less in Europe/Russia as well

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Here's the KHL rink capacities Start of the season’s attendance: the second-best ever
The 19 Russian clubs average 8263 capacity, the 6 other clubs average 11281 (there's only one team with a capacity above 15K).

The KHL's second best ever start for attendance is seeing the league average 6238 fans per game (averaging 5962 in Russia and 7225 outside of Russia). The KHL is averaging 69.9% full this year; as a comparison, in the NHL the lowest team is at 80.3% 2018-2019 NHL Attendance - National Hockey League - ESPN

In addition to the challenges of attendance capacity and corporate sponsorship, my understanding is the ticket prices are significantly less in Europe/Russia as well

for reference, the AHL averaged 5,823 per game last year

 

[Nino33]

Why would they, hypothetically, need that when there won't be any 17.000 attending the games? In Sweden you have "Malmo arena" and "Globen arena" that have like 15k capacity each but as I said it's quite irrelevant as they would never get that kind of regular attendance for NHL games.

Wouldn't that make it quite irrelevant to even consider said countries to ever get an NHL team?

 

[Nino33]

for reference, the AHL averaged 5,823 per game last year

For minor pro leagues the AHL's comparable would be the VHL which apparently averages about 2K fans per game vhl hockey attndnace - Google Search

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

For minor pro leagues the AHL's comparable would be the VHL which apparently averages about 2K fans per game vhl hockey attndnace - Google Search

more so putting some NA context to the KHL attendance figures you posted. The biggest Euro league has attendance on par with the AHL

 

[psycat]

Wouldn't that make it quite irrelevant to even consider said countries to ever get an NHL team?

Yes. NHL in Europe is a ridiculous idea at best.

 

[psycat]

So how could they survive fincially?

They wouldn't unless some rich man want's to use it as a personal toy, only other option would be sponsoring like name the team "Berlin Adidas" and hope they would be willing to cover part of the expenses but I wouldn't do it in their position. Most European hockey fans doesn't want NHL here and even if we did we are simply not many enough outside maybe, maybe a city or two.

 

[Jumptheshark]

I think there are several problems
1) Players do not make as much over here as in the nhl. Some KHL teams pay players a lot--but players are getting about £250 to £300k a year--tax free and other fun stuff--I do not think a division would survive over here (BTW--if you are curious where I am getting that figure from there have been a few lawsuits over the past few years in different leagues that went to court)
2) Tickets prices here are a lot lower then in the NHL arena--I go to about 100 games in different leagues a year and pay between £15 to £30 for good seats
3) fans are loyal to clubs--so expansion might not be the answer but doing what the KHL did and have established teams join--problem there would be players whos rights are owned by nhl teams--
4) NHL fans already complain about when their team plays on the east coast or west coast about start time. Say if a team is in Moscow.. And Vancouver has a game there--Moscow is 11 hours in front of Vancouver
5) Travel
6) Visa situations and getting working agreements
7) Where would the teams be? Arenas could be a problem--there are a lot of good arenas but even some of the best teams play in old arena
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_indoor_arenas_in_Europehere is a wiki for indoor arenas--note--not all can do hockey a few are in fact indoor stadiums but are labeled as indoor arenas
Nearly all arenas on that list are multi use and are heavily used. Both the O2 in London and the Manchester is in use almost every night in one form or another already
8) NHL is still an attendance based league and the new arenas would have to be between 16 to 18.5K

for a serious talk of the NHL in Europe I think we are atleast 20 years away

 

[letsgrowcactus]

Do they have NHL type arenas in Europe with 17k+ seats and 75+ luxury suites? I was always under the impression the rinks and corporate sponsorship were smaller in Europe for hockey, am I completely wrong?

Don't know about the rest of Europe but the O2 arena in Prague has up to 18,000 seats capacity (not sure how many luxury suits are there but there you go).

Anyway, I don't see how this could possibly work. The long flights, travelling between multiple countries, scheduling games when either people in NA or in Europe won't be able to watch them, finding owners who'd invest the money, getting fanbases, even getting NHL players to come to Europe like someone mentioned...

 

[Nino33]

the O2 arena in Prague has up to 18,000 seats capacity (not sure how many luxury suits are there but there you go).

According to wiki the O2 arena in Prague holds 17,383 for hockey O2 Arena (Prague) - Wikipedia


The wiki article lists the following "technical facts" (they even list how much beer can be tapped in one break!)

• Number of floors: 6
• Floor space: 35,000 m²
• Capacity: up to 18,000 spectators (depends on event)
• Club and Luxury seats: 2,460
• Sky boxes: 66
• Party Boxes: 4
• Seats in bars, restaurants and cafés: 2,900
• Beers that can be tapped in one break: 10,00
• Parking: 280 places
• Population of its catchment area: 1.5 to 1.8 million people

So it seems to have luxury suites (if that's what "sky boxes" means).

EDIT - found this on wiki, a list of European Arenas (includes only those arenas that currently and regularly host hockey games with paid admission) List of European ice hockey arenas - Wikipedia

 

[Vipers31]

European guy who neither likes it, nor thinks it's viable.

 

[swerdnase]

What I haven't seen mentioned yet is how the European teams would deal with it. Right now all teams play each other at least twice. Are the Euro teams going to be flying back and forth multiple times in the season? Otherwise we're talking about one hellava long road trip!

 

[letsgrowcactus]

According to wiki the O2 arena in Prague holds 17,383 for hockey O2 Arena (Prague) - Wikipedia


The wiki article lists the following "technical facts" (they even list how much beer can be tapped in one break!)

• Number of floors: 6
• Floor space: 35,000 m²
• Capacity: up to 18,000 spectators (depends on event)
• Club and Luxury seats: 2,460
• Sky boxes: 66
• Party Boxes: 4
• Seats in bars, restaurants and cafés: 2,900
• Beers that can be tapped in one break: 10,00
• Parking: 280 places
• Population of its catchment area: 1.5 to 1.8 million people

So it seems to have luxury suites (if that's what "sky boxes" means).

Not sure about the sky boxes... for the game on Sunday, they is roughly a hundred of the most expensive seats available (cost ca. 40 dolars for the Extraliga game) and then thousands of cheaper seats (cost 7-11 dolars).

Which points to yet another problem that some people mentioned - prices vs. attendance. Either the tickets would have to be much cheaper than in the US/Canada, or the attendance will suck... and the NHL players would still want to be paid even if they're in Europe. Not sure how you solve that economically as an owner, unless you're a multi-billionaire who doesn't mind pouring money into a hockey franchise as a hobby...

 

[Lays]

Even if traveling was irrelevant, players would get homesick I’d imagine, too many complications for a Euro division to work