Viability of a Europe expansion

Would you like it? Is it viable at some point?

  • Like it, viable

  • Like it, not viable

  • Don’t like it, viable

  • Don't like it, not viable


Results are only viewable after voting.

Tommigun

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Jan 5, 2018
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Thanks for the replies.

This just in:
“NHL and NHLPA eyeing Europe ‘sooner rather than later’”

“League deputy commissioner in favour of introducing a whole new division.
Both the National Hockey League (NHL) and the NHL Players’ Association (NHLPA) have said it is inevitable that Europe will get an expansion franchise.”

“He [Daly] said a European expansion will happen “in the short- to medium-term but with continued growth in the sport, franchises in Europe at some point are probably inevitable.””

NHL and NHLPA eyeing Europe ‘sooner rather than later’

Oh boy oh boy!
 

BruinsFan37

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Jun 26, 2015
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It's not the travel that will kill this -- its the timezone differences.

Most Stanley Cup final games start at 8pm Eastern/5pm Pacific to maximize revenue from advertising, etc. Regular season games typically start at 7PM local (excluding some weekend matinees) to maximize revenue locally.

Now say a team in Helsinki reaches the finals -- to maintain that start time, the local start time would have to be -- 3 AM. Not really practicable -- at least during the week (and probably not during the weekend either) -- and would kill almost all local (i.e. euro) revenue.

You could have a 9PM local start time in Helsinki, and the broadcast would go off at 2PM Eastern/11AM Pacific and that would be manageable -- during the weekend -- during the regular work week this would kill revenue in (North America)

You have the games go off at 7PM local (noon Eastern, 9AM Pacific), possibly show the game live, and then show a rebroadcast at a more realistic time for North America, but again, that would kill a lot of revenue in North America.

---

Now extrapolate that to regular season games, and you see how this isn't really feasible.

Edit to add:

Even if they try this, they'll quickly abandon it after the Euro teams lose money hand-over-foot and make Arizona look profitable.
 
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Nino33

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I just can't see how it's viable.
I don't like or dislike the idea, but that isn't a choice so I voted dislike (as I'm not a proponent/supporter/believer in the idea...it's hard to be when I can't see it as viable)
 

Canada4Gold

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Dec 22, 2010
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Hi.

https://thehockeywriters.com/the-real-nhl-expansion-markets-are-in-europe/ depicts one possible scenario of how an expansion of the NHL could take place to the old continent.

What do you think is the viability of this happening at some point? Is it something you’d support or be against? Is it possible it could happen in my lifetime?

Please read the article before commenting/voting.

TLDR:
Main takeaways from it: A flight from say New York to Helsinki is just 2 hours longer than from northern Canada to Miami.

The teams would play all the European teams on their road trip. It wouldn’t be that much different than a long road trip currently.

NA teams visiting Europe: weekend game, late local time=12PM:ish NA time. Europe vs Europe=weekdays, whenever.

Also, the interest for the NHL is sky high in Europe and would open up a tremendous new market.

How many European teams are you having? I assume a lot if they're only playing their weekday games against each other. That would make the bolded quite difficult. Go on a road trip to Europe to play all 5 or 6 teams and you're only playing those games on weekends? So you're having a couple games and then the entire week off and a couple more games, full week off before finishing it up? 3 week road trip with only games on the weekends? That's just not feasible.

Seems like your solution to the viewship time zone issue causes issues with your solution to the travel issue.
 

psycat

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Wouldn't turn out all that well, people over here are already bored with the plastic teams we got. Zero local connection in most cases and attendance is dropping as a result. Also the 50 or matches per reg season we got in SHL now are already more than enough, don't think even the hardcore fans could endure another 30 or so games.

Also as mentioned time zones would make it a logistical nightmare.
That said I don't know much about how people in other countries would view it but in Sweden I would say there is a market for at the very max 2 NHL teams(1 in Stockholm and 1 in Gothenburg) rest would be madness to even try- But I am very sceptical it would be viable in reality in either location.
 
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Leonhard Euler

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Mar 5, 2018
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As an European, Don't like it and it's not viable. If it ever becomes viable I still hope it's never gonna happen
 

Spazkat

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Feb 19, 2015
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Even if you resolve the time zone and travel logistics how would the money and the rest work?

* To get players to sign there they'd have to pay NHL salaries, which from what I can see are *far* higher than what KHL/Liiga etc pay.
* They're going to be NHL teams so revenue sharing would apply, but would they sell any tickets at NHL prices when local teams/events cost so much less?
* Do they have owners lined up that want to pay that much for an NHL franchise and take that much risk?
* Will the local teams/fans have a fit when NHL comes in and strips all the local talent?
 

eliasjx

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Apr 23, 2018
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Could you imagine the jet lag players would have to deal with going across 8 to 10 time zones... Then adjust back within days?
 

Tommigun

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Could you imagine the jet lag players would have to deal with going across 8 to 10 time zones... Then adjust back within days?

That’s the thing I’m least concerned about, as it can be worked around/mitigated via scheduling. NHLPA was also in favor of expanding to Europe so player jet lag is probably the least of the concerns. I wouldn’t even rule out if NA players were pretty excited about the prospect of a yearly Europe road trip.

Finding owners willing to fork up a billion dollars is going to be the biggest problem I think. But considering both NHL and NHLPA said they want to do it there is no way they haven’t already gauged the interest.
 

Tommigun

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Even if you resolve the time zone and travel logistics how would the money and the rest work?

* To get players to sign there they'd have to pay NHL salaries, which from what I can see are *far* higher than what KHL/Liiga etc pay.
* They're going to be NHL teams so revenue sharing would apply, but would they sell any tickets at NHL prices when local teams/events cost so much less?
* Do they have owners lined up that want to pay that much for an NHL franchise and take that much risk?
* Will the local teams/fans have a fit when NHL comes in and strips all the local talent?

Money is definitely a concern but they’d certainly do some kind of season ticket pledge drive first to see if the local economies could sustain it. All of the suggested locations in the new NHL interview are economically viable I’d think. I’m more concerned about finding owners than finding spectators who can pay NHL ticket prices tbh.
 

Leonhard Euler

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Mar 5, 2018
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I don’t like that angle.
There's no angle. I just hope the league won't expand over 32 teams ones Seattle joins. That's before all the hassle with the intercontinental logistics and all other worries.
Keep the global series up, every now and then bring a back to back to Europe I think that is great.
 

Tommigun

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There's no angle. I just hope the league won't expand over 32 teams ones Seattle joins. That's before all the hassle with the intercontinental logistics and all other worries.
Keep the global series up, every now and then bring a back to back to Europe I think that is great.

It was an Euler joke.
 

Nino33

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Jul 5, 2015
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That’s the thing I’m least concerned about, as it can be worked around/mitigated via scheduling. NHLPA was also in favor of expanding to Europe so player jet lag is probably the least of the concerns. I wouldn’t even rule out if NA players were pretty excited about the prospect of a yearly Europe road trip.
What makes you say this? Fehr expressed his personal opinion, that doesn't at all mean the NHLPA supports the idea
 

Nino33

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Jul 5, 2015
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Money is definitely a concern but they’d certainly do some kind of season ticket pledge drive first to see if the local economies could sustain it. All of the suggested locations in the new NHL interview are economically viable I’d think. I’m more concerned about finding owners than finding spectators who can pay NHL ticket prices tbh.
The revenue from the entire SHL league (all home/away games for all teams for the whole season) equal the revenues of a single (top) NHL team playing 41 games at home. SM-liiga's revenues for their entire league equal the revenues of a single bottom NHL team playing 41 home games.

I'd think the 5-6 owners/ownership groups with the billions they'd need to buy teams/build arenas would be easier than getting European/Russian fans to pay anything remotely close to enough to have an NHL team (unless each of those owners are going to throw in tens of millions of dollars years after year for operating costs)
 

major major

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Feb 18, 2013
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I can see it working but in a more modest form.

Because of the game time / time zone issue, full integration with the league might be too impractical. Perhaps the best you can do is to have all Euro v NA games Saturday, Sunday, and just one mid-week game. If that issue can be overcome I think a Euro-wide division that plays a more limited number of games with NA teams makes sense.

But I think even 6 teams might be too much. The idea that a team would be more profitable in Bratislava (or even Prague) than in Columbus is laughable. Incomes are just too low there. And though St. Petersburg and Moscow have loads of money, Russia is probably too difficult to work with. The oligarchs will want to keep control of their toys, as in the KHL, and the NHL can't work with that kind of business and that kind of regime.

I think Helsinki and Stockholm would work amazingly - I know getting the revenue needed would be unprecedented in those markets, but the incomes and hockey mania are enough to do it. Berlin might work, and though no one has mentioned Cologne, I think that might work even better. I think those 4 teams might be it. There aren't 6 viable markets, unless you want to heavily subsidize a pair of them to flesh the league out. If so, then maybe the league would go for London and Paris, for long term growth potential.

Helsinki
Paris
London
Koln
Stockholm
Berlin

Do I expect this to happen within the next couple decades? No. But we'll see the league inch toward it.
 
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LarKing

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The travel, taxes, fanbase, etc. are all good points being brought up. One I haven’t really seen being mentioned is getting players to want to play for these teams, though. How messed up would it be to suddenly be traded to a team on a different continent, incredibly far away from your family? I just don’t see players wanting to make that kind of life move. Every player with a NTC would have these euro teams on a no trade list. I just feel like the euro teams would have such a hard time attracting North American players.
 

triggrman

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Do they have NHL type arenas in Europe with 17k+ seats and 75+ luxury suites? I was always under the impression the rinks and corporate sponsorship were smaller in Europe for hockey, am I completely wrong?
 

psycat

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Oct 25, 2016
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Do they have NHL type arenas in Europe with 17k+ seats and 75+ luxury suites? I was always under the impression the rinks and corporate sponsorship were smaller in Europe for hockey, am I completely wrong?

Why would they, hypothetically, need that when there won't be any 17.000 attending the games? In Sweden you have "Malmo arena" and "Globen arena" that have like 15k capacity each but as I said it's quite irrelevant as they would never get that kind of regular attendance for NHL games.

Afaik they got quite large arenas in Cologne, Prague and Bern(and so on) but I am not so convinced they would draw that much either.
 

tucker3434

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I don’t want any more weekday day games than we already get due to government holidays. I can’t see how they’re going to get travel to work. You’d neither want a team making multiple trans-Atlantic flights per year, nor a whole bunch of 1PM games in their home time zone in a row.
 

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