VHL Expansion

[Rigafan]

Is it possible to have some discussion about this league and their expansions? Somebody more in the know or who reads Russian can provide better details than their very poor English version of their website!

So we know the vision of the Silk Road Cup and it seems to be taking shape, slowly but surely and the VHL seems to be more adept at its expansion plans than its big brother KHL.. How is this the case?

The league now looks like this

Russian Teams 27
Kazakh Teams 3
Chinese Teams 3
Uzbek Teams 1

While most of the teams are farm teams of the KHL I would like to know who is paying for all this? Does the main KHL team pay for their VHL team? If so how much? Flying a team from Beijing to St Petersburg then to Nur Sultan and then to Tashkent is not cheap, right?

Sure costs are lower because of the lower standard but.. its a professional league, with decent players earing money, being flown around all of Eurasia, with small attendances (compared to KHL for example) little money from ticket sales and obviously a lot less money from local sponsors then the KHL would make and no TV deal money?

Click to read more...

 

[Exarz]

I don't know if it has improved, but I know that bus was a very common transportation system a few years ago for VHL teams. And as teams fly commercial, they save a lot of money that way (which also is the reason they put the Far Eastern teams in the most Western division).

I'm not expert on the league but my most rational guess is that the main club pays/substitutes some things for them being their farm club, it depends on each club. SKA for example most likely has a way bigger farm-team budget than any other KHL-team

Post scriptum: I don't think the pay is that good in the VHL. The average monthly salary is certainly higher in Western second-tier leagues on a similar or above skill level

 

[vorky]

@Exarz is right about transportation & payments of the KHL to their farm team. It really depends on the team. SKA & CSKA have classic farm-system, so VHL teams are an integral part of the club, so paying for everything of that VHL farm-team. Other KHL clubs have just an agreement with some VHL side, so paying just for some part of the budget.

As Exarz said about transportation, almost all trips are bus-trips & some commercial flight if it is needed. As I know, the Russian flight system is done in a way that all flight need to go through Moscow. So, it is much easier for Far East teams (China, Uzbekistan) to get to Moscow (by plane) than to Siberia (by bus)

I do not know about salaries.

 

[Rigafan]

@Exarz is right about transportation & payments of the KHL to their farm team. It really depends on the team. SKA & CSKA have classic farm-system, so VHL teams are an integral part of the club, so paying for everything of that VHL farm-team. Other KHL clubs have just an agreement with some VHL side, so paying just for some part of the budget.

As Exarz said about transportation, almost all trips are bus-trips & some commercial flight if it is needed. As I know, the Russian flight system is done in a way that all flight need to go through Moscow. So, it is much easier for Far East teams (China, Uzbekistan) to get to Moscow (by plane) than to Siberia (by bus)

I do not know about salaries.

So for an example...

Jilin City are playing SKA - Ok they could fly straight to St Peters or to Moscow then bus to St Peters, right?

What if they are playing somebody like... Molot in Perm? That's a 19h (at best) bus ride from Moscow, or maybe they use connecting flights?

Their scheduling, whoever's job that is, must not be so enjoyable

Its a shame they don't release more information. I know its a farm league but its a very interesting league, especially for us interested in KHL / Pan Euro/Asian type situations.

 

[vorky]

Jilin City first trip is Penza, Togliaty, Samara. I guess they fly to Moscow, then moving to Penza by bus or by plane (I have no idea) and finally moving from Togliaty to Samara by bus. Then again to Moscow somehow and going to China.

Another trip is Kurgan-Uchaly-Orsk-Chelyabink. I guess they fly from China to Chelyabinsk, then by bus around all cities (or maybe they take a commercial flight), finishing in Chelyabinsk (international airport) and moving to China.

Their other trip is Tver-St.Pete (vs Dynamo/SKA-Neva). So landing in Moscow, bus to Tver, somehow to St.Pete and then plane to China.

Someone with a deeper knowledge of Russian flights schedule may correct me. But I guess when you want to go from Novosibirsk/Chelyabinsk to Khabarovsk/Vladivostok by plane, you need to take a flight to Moscow. Simply you do not have all cities connected each other with direct flights. You need to go to Moscow (or other bigger city/airport, but usually Moscow).

I agree with you that it must be very interesting to schedule the trips for some teams. But, even bigger fun it must be for guys (in league´s HQ) doing season´s schedule.

Chinese and Uzbeks joined the VHL is a knowledge of that transportation, so they are aware of all problems/costs. But some smaller Russian clubs complain that it is too expensive for them to travel to China and now even Uzbekistan. Of course, such long trips are not a problem for SKA/CSKA farm teams, who are fully financed by SKA/CSKA. But it is a problem for smaller regional teams. The league did not have conferences before, all play each other. Right now I do not know all the details, but I guess they wanted to make an easier transportations schedule when decided to go with conferences.

 

[Rigafan]

Jilin City first trip is Penza, Togliaty, Samara. I guess they fly to Moscow, then moving to Penza by bus or by plane (I have no idea) and finally moving from Togliaty to Samara by bus. Then again to Moscow somehow and going to China.

Another trip is Kurgan-Uchaly-Orsk-Chelyabink. I guess they fly from China to Chelyabinsk, then by bus around all cities (or maybe they take a commercial flight), finishing in Chelyabinsk (international airport) and moving to China.

Their other trip is Tver-St.Pete (vs Dynamo/SKA-Neva). So landing in Moscow, bus to Tver, somehow to St.Pete and then plane to China.

Someone with a deeper knowledge of Russian flights schedule may correct me. But I guess when you want to go from Novosibirsk/Chelyabinsk to Khabarovsk/Vladivostok by plane, you need to take a flight to Moscow. Simply you do not have all cities connected each other with direct flights. You need to go to Moscow (or other bigger city/airport, but usually Moscow).

I agree with you that it must be very interesting to schedule the trips for some teams. But, even bigger fun it must be for guys (in league´s HQ) doing season´s schedule.

Chinese and Uzbeks joined the VHL is a knowledge of that transportation, so they are aware of all problems/costs. But some smaller Russian clubs complain that it is too expensive for them to travel to China and now even Uzbekistan. Of course, such long trips are not a problem for SKA/CSKA farm teams, who are fully financed by SKA/CSKA. But it is a problem for smaller regional teams. The league did not have conferences before, all play each other. Right now I do not know all the details, but I guess they wanted to make an easier transportations schedule when decided to go with conferences.

I can see how the Divisions have been set up, its interesting, at first it doesn't make sense with Chinese teams with Moscow teams but when you consider that CSKA/SKA don't really need to worry where they play it all makes sense.

The league is very interesting though, it current sits at 34 teams! It kind of feels like its becoming what the KHL wants.. albeit it in a much cheaper fashion! Do we have any idea about future growth? Seen as the Silk Road Cup could open many doors (look at Uzbek now). Maybe this new team that is being started in.. Georgia but playing in UAE? Could consider, surely for travel purposes a Russian based league would make much more sense.

 

[singlesliceofcheese]

I can see how the Divisions have been set up, its interesting, at first it doesn't make sense with Chinese teams with Moscow teams but when you consider that CSKA/SKA don't really need to worry where they play it all makes sense.

The league is very interesting though, it current sits at 34 teams! It kind of feels like its becoming what the KHL wants.. albeit it in a much cheaper fashion! Do we have any idea about future growth? Seen as the Silk Road Cup could open many doors (look at Uzbek now). Maybe this new team that is being started in.. Georgia but playing in UAE? Could consider, surely for travel purposes a Russian based league would make much more sense.

I'm not sure if they'll keep the clubs in China, seeing how they'll be getting a domestic league soon.

 

[Pardus]

I'm not sure if they'll keep the clubs in China, seeing how they'll be getting a domestic league soon.

Is there a plan for Chinese league?

 

[Caser]

Their other trip is Tver-St.Pete (vs Dynamo/SKA-Neva). So landing in Moscow, bus to Tver, somehow to St.Pete and then plane to China.

Moscow, Tver and St.Petersburg are connected via the Sapsan high-speed train.

 

[tealhockey]

I don't understand what is in it for the Russian teams to add China into the mix if they aren't being subsidized by the Chinese teams for their troubles. Seems like a huge headache

 

[hansomreiste]

I don't understand what is in it for the Russian teams to add China into the mix if they aren't being subsidized by the Chinese teams for their troubles. Seems like a huge headache

Russian teams have no say in that, to be honest. None of them ever makes a protif anyways, so who cares about the expenses? Yes, some of them might dislike the idea of having to travel to China but their alternative is ceasing to exist, which I'm sure they dislike more than playing against Chinese teams.

 

[vorky]

There is an agreement between the FHR/VHL & Chinese clubs that Chinese compensate for the transport costs to the Russian clubs. However, I do not how much.

 

[tealhockey]

Russian teams have no say in that, to be honest. None of them ever makes a protif anyways, so who cares about the expenses?

Lol, what? I don't even know how to respond to that

 

[SoundAndFury]

Lol, what? I don't even know how to respond to that

What hansomreiste correctly albeit not gracefully said is that those are political decisions and teams don't really have a say in it. How the league runs isn't decided by them. If the people above were kind enough to demand some compensations to them - great. If not - oh well.

 

[tealhockey]

What hansomreiste correctly albeit not gracefully said is that those are political decisions and teams don't really have a say in it. How the league runs isn't decided by them. If the people above were kind enough to demand some compensations to them - great. If not - oh well.

I don't really care but "none of them ever makes a profit anyways, so who cares about the expenses" is the most ridiculous thing I've heard today, and I've already heard some ridiculous stuff today. Even if it is a 'political' thing, yeah, but subsidies are a political thing. Sports are inherently political especially when discussing something like this. That doesn't mean expenses don't factor in. Expenses always factor in. If Russia decided to make them fly to Djibouti to play would they just "have to sit down and take it" if they weren't being subsidized for their troubles?

 

[hansomreiste]

If Russia decided to make them fly to Djibouti to play would they just "have to sit down and take it" if they weren't being subsidized for their troubles?

Yes? Russian clubs are not rich enough to stay afloat or come together to create their own league. Theoretically, they could do this. However, the salary would be quite low in that new league. So, teams going to Djibouti would keep getting state money and stay afloat while others play for peanuts in a low-tier league.

I don't understand what surprises you so much. Russia subsidizing teams for troubles is the real stupid argument. Teams exist only because Russian politicians want so. What subsidy are you talking about? They're %70-80 dependent on government or corporations already, which are honestly owned by same people anyways. It is not Russian clubs that are in a position to ask for a compensation. Rather, it is corporations & municipalities owning that clubs allocating extra funds for new troubles.

 

[tealhockey]

Yes? Russian clubs are not rich enough to stay afloat or come together to create their own league. Theoretically, they could do this. However, the salary would be quite low in that new league. So, teams going to Djibouti would keep getting state money and stay afloat while others play for peanuts in a low-tier league.

I don't understand what surprises you so much. Russia subsidizing teams for troubles is the real stupid argument. Teams exist only because Russian politicians want so. What subsidy are you talking about? They're %70-80 dependent on government or corporations already, which are honestly owned by same people anyways. It is not Russian clubs that are in a position to ask for a compensation. Rather, it is corporations & municipalities owning that clubs allocating extra funds for new troubles.

I think you are just looking to argue or look smart, it doesn't really matter to me which.

My original point was that I don't see what is in it for the Russian teams to play this insane schedule when they already are in a precarious situation and I can't imagine the current travel arrangement across the continent is ideal for development as is. So, therefore, if there isn't some major influx of cash from the Chinese teams, I don't see any short-term payoff for anyone, Russia hockey, Russian owners, least of all Russian prospects. You responded to my original point saying that "expenses don't matter since they don't turn a profit and teams don't have any say in it", who cares? All I'm saying is that I don't see any benefit for them if they aren't being paid more than enough to compensate for the downsides. The only benefit seems to be that in 15-20 years the foundation laid today means China (and the other countries) could have a "real" league and the KHL could be truly "kontinental" and a great on-ice product. Very idealistic.

But by all means defend the status quo because it is the status quo. Logic has long since been thrown out the window when it comes to how decisions in the hockey world get made.

 

[Nino33]

My original point was that I don't see what is in it for the Russian teams to play this insane schedule when they already are in a precarious situation and I can't imagine the current travel arrangement across the continent is ideal for development as is. So, therefore, if there isn't some major influx of cash from the Chinese teams, I don't see any short-term payoff for anyone, Russia hockey, Russian owners, least of all Russian prospects.

As Vorky recently explained in the Business of Hockey Forum

• the teams tickets/ads/merchandising/other add up to about 10% of the money the KHL makes
• 64% of the money the KHL generates is money from the government

Regarding the KHL, the league is profitable as never before.

53b rubles is a total budget of all clubs combined. Of all that money, 54% is sponsorship money from state corporations, 24% sponsorship agreements with commercial sponsors (non-government), 10% commercial income of clubs, 2% others, 10% funds by government (local authority)

So 5,4b rubles as commercial income. That money is sourced from tickets (48%), ads (34%), merchandising (10%) and other (8%)

When the government is already spending over half a billion US dollars per year to keep the league running, why would you think China travel costs are that big a deal?

 

[tealhockey]

As Vorky recently explained in the Business of Hockey Forum

• the teams tickets/ads/merchandising/other add up to about 10% of the money the KHL makes
• 64% of the money the KHL generates is money from the government

When the government is already spending over half a billion US dollars per year to keep the league running, why would you think China travel costs are that big a deal?

It isn't just costs that I think are a big deal, it seems like you are making an already-convoluted schedule that much more complex (and worse, most likely in the short-term). Ostensibly the VHL is a farm circuit for development, I don't see how travelling all over the continent just for the sake of adding teams helps that goal. Money is the only way I can see that makes it remotely worthwhile to anyone on the Russian side. Money which then goes back to the VHL teams to help them improve their product on the hockey and entertainment side (of course not though )

Also, are you guys all silicon valley people or something? I can't believe the argument is actually "we already piss away half a billion dollars on this, what is more money? Why not?"

 

[Nino33]

@tealhockey Seriously, did you just discover the KHL/Russian hockey? Do you know nothing about Russia?



And unless someone posting is part of the Russian government, there's really no "we" (and providing information doesn't necessarily mean the provider agrees with/supports what's being done). I think propaganda and "bread and circuses" is the purpose; the KHL is not a real business (as the majority of the money coming from government clearly shows)


Vorky and some others have "drunk the kool-aid" and believe things like the KHL is actually profitable and it's more than just a Russian League (a good reason for teams in China, plus it allows claims of the league expanding...and beating the NHL to China can be celebrated, etc).

Most people haven't drunk the kool-aid, but those that have are passionate believers

 

[tealhockey]

@tealhockey Seriously, did you just discover the KHL/Russian hockey? Do you know nothing about Russia?



And unless someone posting is part of the Russian government, there's really no "we" (and providing information doesn't necessarily mean the provider agrees with/supports what's being done). I think propaganda and "bread and circuses" is the purpose; the KHL is not a real business (as the majority of the money coming from government clearly shows)


Vorky and some others have "drunk the kool-aid" and believe things like the KHL is actually profitable and it's more than just a Russian League (a good reason for teams in China, plus it allows claims of the league expanding...and beating the NHL to China can be celebrated, etc).

Most people haven't drunk the kool-aid, but those that have are passionate believers

I know my share about the KHL (both from my life experience, experience as a scout in this sport all the way to reading the 'this is russia' book) which is why I'm questioning what is in it for them to re-configure their minor leagues if they aren't getting a big pay-out, and even if they are, how it helps the game at all. I guess you are right, I'm not cynical enough. That's why I made the joke that the money should go back to the VHL if they are getting anything out of it. I guess I just got baited, but I like to look at things from a hockey perspective, how does this help Russian players get better. It's clear to me this helps China and the other countries but it is totally unclear to me how it helps Russia, I guess for the reasons you state, but I figured most people would see through that and that the Russian owners would never want to spend more money potentially worsening a product that already hemorrhages cash.

It just seems to me like Russia is making progress with their league(s) even if it is not profitable in most markets and that something like this is a lateral move at best. The world is very ironic though maybe we will both be very surprised and China will be the new force in this sport. I do think there is real potential for the hyper-competitive asian three (China/SK/JP) to rapidly develop once one of them starts to unveil talent on a consistent basis. In that respect this is a huge win for the sport. I wonder and worry about the execution.

 

[HungryFrank]

Foreign teams in VHL mostly use players from Russia so basically it expands the pool for Russian players.

China didn't show any big progress at U18 level (in D2B just coming physically fit is an advantage), I did hear their U14 and younger teams did improve, but that's before "real hockey" is played.
Therefore, I think they will mostly use Russians, give out few passport and close the shop after the Olympics and that's probably what Russia will to get out of it.

 

[vorky]

Foreign teams in VHL mostly use players from Russia so basically it expands the pool for Russian players.

China didn't show any big progress at U18 level (in D2B just coming physically fit is an advantage), I did hear their U14 and younger teams did improve, but that's before "real hockey" is played.
Therefore, I think they will mostly use Russians, give out few passport and close the shop after the Olympics and that's probably what Russia will to get out of it.

Do you mean that Russians will be naturalised to play for China NT at the Olympics? If so, I can say you for 1000% that this will not happen. Yes, they have been naturalising players, but only those with Chinese heritage from Canada/USA

 

[singlesliceofcheese]

Is there a plan for Chinese league?

Yeah, the Chinese governing body promised the IIHF the creation of a league for a host spot at the Olympics (China told to get skates on - Chinadaily.com.cn mentions May of this year, but nothing really happened). They had some mock tournament recently (Ovi went to it), but it wasn't official, as ASU and other Russian clubs participated, but it seems like it may happen sooner rather than later.

I'm not sure if KRS would actually leave the KHL for a domestic league. I almost hope they do, so they can maybe create intranational rivalries that relatively emulate the European model of hockey.

 

[HungryFrank]

Do you mean that Russians will be naturalised to play for China NT at the Olympics? If so, I can say you for 1000% that this will not happen. Yes, they have been naturalising players, but only those with Chinese heritage from Canada/USA

I am talking about Chinese VHL teams, that they will build their teams with players from Russia and players with Chinese roots from North America. My prediction is that they will stop participating in VHL after the Olympics.