Confirmed Trade: [VGK/MTL] Max Pacioretty for 2019 2nd round pick, Nick Suzuki, and Tomas Tatar

[Habs Halifax]

1C is pushing it big time. 2C potential

I don't think it's a massive stretch. It's called potential and Suzuki can play. I will say if he ends up a #1C, it's a nice surprise but the potential is there.

 

[admiralcadillac]

Poehling has 3C potential, every team has at least one of these guys.

When was the last time you saw him play? He's not at training camp.

 

[Empoleon8771]

That is BS. Poehling definitely has #2C potential. A safe middle 2 center. If you don't see this, you don't understand what kind of player Poehling is. You think he has no offensive skills which is wrong.

Every team has a Poehling? This is BS! Sho me how many young kids good enough to play NCAA as a 17 or 18 year old. He is a big strong body that can skate well and he does have some offensive skills. His draft +1 was very impressive as well.

If that's the only requirement, then yeah, a ton of teams have a Poehling equivalent prospect. A lot of teams do have 2-way center prospects with safe middle-6 upside, that's not an uncommon thing.

The Penguins have 2 of those guys in Hallander and Olund, just looking at it really quickly. You can get similar prospects to Poehling pretty easily in the 2nd round of most drafts.

 

[Habs Halifax]

If that's the only requirement, then yeah, a ton of teams have a Poehling equivalent prospect. A lot of teams do have 2-way center prospects with safe middle-6 upside, that's not an uncommon thing

Poehling played on team USA as a 18 year old and will play again this year at the World Juniors. He is not just a safe two way center. The things this kid can do and how he plays a 200' game is not matched by many prospects from across the league.

Habs have another player like Olofsson. This is a type of prospect a lot of teams have. Lets not get confused and drop Poehling's value. He is a fringe grade A prospect at this point.

Lets compare Poehling to Thomas. Thomas plays CHL and Poehling plays with men in the NCAA. Thomas has more offense but Poehling plays a more complete game and is a shut down center type. This has been his focus but in an offensive role, he also does show he has offensive skills.

I don't think you know too much about this kid to be honest

 

[Empoleon8771]

Poehling played on team USA as a 18 year old and will play again. He is not just a safe two way center. The things this kid can do and how he plays a 200' game is not matched by many prospects from across the league.

Habs have another player like Olofsson. This is a type of prospect a lot of teams have. Lets not get confused and drop Poehling's value. He is a fringe grade A prospect.

Oh boy, yikes. I mean, he's not even a PPG player in the NCAA. What makes him a better prospect than Fillip Hallander, who was a Penguins 2nd rounder this year? That's just an example, I could name other players from other teams too, Rasmus Asplund is one that jumps to mind really quickly.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Oh boy, yikes. I mean, he's not even a PPG player in the NCAA. What makes him a better prospect than Fillip Hallander, who was a Penguins 2nd rounder this year? That's just an example, I could name other players from other teams too, Rasmus Asplund is one that jumps to mind really quickly.

Not even a pt/game player in the NCAA? Neither is Mittelstadt and he is suppose to be a more offensive type player. Heck, Mittelstadt didn't even play in the NCAA in his pre-draft year while Poehling did.

A better comparison to the players you named is Olofsson who the Habs also drafted in the 2nd round this past draft. I can name random 2nd round picks as well. Poehling was ranked mid 1st round heading into his draft year but slipped to the Habs at 25 in the 2017 draft. Why do you think? Well the concern was offense and it's hard to judge for a 17/18 year old playing his pre-draft year in the NCAA. 17/18 year olds in their pre-draft year don't play NCAA too often. What happened after his draft year? He played his 2nd NCAA year and got similar stats to Mittelstadt who is suppose to be more offensive.

Naming random 2nd round picks means nothing. Poehling is a 1st round pick who has develop well in his draft +1 year. His focus is playing a 200' game and his offensive ceiling is unknown.

 

[Rebels57]

Oh boy, yikes. I mean, he's not even a PPG player in the NCAA. What makes him a better prospect than Fillip Hallander, who was a Penguins 2nd rounder this year? That's just an example, I could name other players from other teams too, Rasmus Asplund is one that jumps to mind really quickly.

Poehling was one of the best players in NCAA in his Draft +1. Thats usually an indication of a very good prospect.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Not even a pt/game player in the NCAA? Neither is Mittelstadt and he is suppose to be a more offensive type player. Heck, Mittelstadt didn't even play in the NCAA in his pre-draft year while Poehling did.

I thought Poehling was a 2016 draft pick for some reason, that was my mistake. I saw his 2016-2017 season and thought it was his draft+1 year, not his draft year. But that's still beside the point that it's crazy to call Poehling a borderline A prospect. He's not an A prospect any more than Hallander, Asplund or even Olofsson is. And if you don't like those examples, can I use Kostin instead? He was an even bigger faller in the 2017 draft than Poehling was, who was taken in the middle range of where he fell in most mock drafts.

Maybe it's just a difference of what an A prospect is, but having a good season after your draft year doesn't make someone an A prospect. Robert Thomas isn't an A prospect. Shane Bowers isn't an A prospect. For me to say someone is an A prospect, they either needed to be super highly regarded going into their draft or have an absolutely incredible draft+1 season. When I say "absolutely incredible", I mean what Tolvanen did last year in the KHL. I'm honestly even iffy on calling on calling Cody Glass an A prospect, he's a guy I'd put in the category of a "borderline A prospect".

 

[slybel]

No way will Tatar provide that kind of offense especially for Habs. He has a big salary also. Suzuki maybe decent.
I don't see the value here. Should have just waited until trade deadline.

ah... Just like the Isles got for Tavares... I see!

 

[Captain97]

If that's the only requirement, then yeah, a ton of teams have a Poehling equivalent prospect. A lot of teams do have 2-way center prospects with safe middle-6 upside, that's not an uncommon thing.

The Penguins have 2 of those guys in Hallander and Olund, just looking at it really quickly. You can get similar prospects to Poehling pretty easily in the 2nd round of most drafts.

By no means am I saying Poehling will for certain be a top 6 center, but going almost a point per game in the NCAA, whilst being relied upon in defensive scenarios as an 18/19 year old to me means legitimate second line potential.

 

[Captain97]

I thought Poehling was a 2016 draft pick for some reason, that was my mistake. I saw his 2016-2017 season and thought it was his draft+1 year, not his draft year. But that's still beside the point that it's crazy to call Poehling a borderline A prospect. He's not an A prospect any more than Hallander, Asplund or even Olofsson is. And if you don't like those examples, can I use Kostin instead? He was an even bigger faller in the 2017 draft than Poehling was, who was taken in the middle range of where he fell in most mock drafts.

Maybe it's just a difference of what an A prospect is, but having a good season after your draft year doesn't make someone an A prospect. Robert Thomas isn't an A prospect. Shane Bowers isn't an A prospect. For me to say someone is an A prospect, they either needed to be super highly regarded going into their draft or have an absolutely incredible draft+1 season. When I say "absolutely incredible", I mean what Tolvanen did last year in the KHL. I'm honestly even iffy on calling on calling Cody Glass an A prospect, he's a guy I'd put in the category of a "borderline A prospect".

If that isn't sarcasm you just lost a lot of credibility in judging propsects, Thomas is pretty Universally considered a Blue Chip prospect at this point.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If that isn't sarcasm you just lost a lot of credibility in judging propsects, Thomas is pretty Universally considered a Blue Chip prospect at this point.

I never said Thomas wasn't a great prospect, I said I don't consider him an A prospect. I said what I consider A prospects, I don't consider many prospects true A prospects.

 

[inthe6ix]

So he's not even a 1st line winger anymore in VGK!

Hard to believe guys like Wild Bill, March and Smith were considered rejects just a couple of years ago, and if someone told you Patches would be playing behind them in a teams' depth chart, you would be laughed at instantly.

Chemistry, yeah ok sure, but Patches with Statsny should be above those guys in all sane worlds but this one.

 

[Wats]

So he's not even a 1st line winger anymore in VGK!

Hard to believe guys like Wild Bill, March and Smith were considered rejects just a couple of years ago, and if someone told you Patches would be playing behind them in a teams' depth chart, you would be laughed at instantly.

Chemistry, yeah ok sure, but Patches with Statsny should be above those guys in all sane worlds but this one.

Like a lot of top end offensive teams, they have 2 first lines.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I never said Thomas wasn't a great prospect, I said I don't consider him an A prospect. I said what I consider A prospects, I don't consider many prospects true A prospects.

A bit of difference in your perception vs others. An A prospect is a player who is a projected top 4D or top 6 forward as a base. A blue chip prospect is a top 2D and 1st line forward. That's how I see it anyways.

Thomas to me is a Grade A prospect. Poehling is a fringe Grade A prospect. He is a safe middle 2 center prospect and most who know him well, would agree.

 

[Empoleon8771]

A bit of difference in your perception vs others. An A prospect is a player who is a projected top 4D or top 6 forward as a base. A blue chip prospect is a top 2D and 1st line forward. That's how I see it anyways.

Thomas to me is a Grade A prospect. Poehling is a fringe Grade A prospect. He is a safe middle 2 center prospect and most who know him well, would agree.

Okay it's just a difference of vocabulary then. My ranking usually goes:

A+: Elite player upside or higher, limited to guys like McDavid and Crosby
A: Franchise player upside, guys like Tavares and Eichel
A-: Near franchise player upside, above average 1st liners but not quite at the franchise player level. Kuznetsov jumps out as a perfect example of this.
B+: Average 1st liner upside, this is the highest level that I'd put guys like Sprong, Kyrou and Thomas
B: Top-6 upside, can be either a 1st or 2nd liner. A lot of 1st rounders fall in this category, Poehling falls here for me
B-: 2nd line upside without much of a chance of 1st line upside

This is just for forwards, but you can amend those for D and goalies.

 

[CupInSIX]

Poehling was one of the best players in NCAA in his Draft +1. Thats usually an indication of a very good prospect.

It's funny how high Hab fans were on Poehling 6 months ago, now that they've got Suzuki and Kotkaniemi it's almost like he's yesterday's news.

Out of sight out of mind I guess.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Okay it's just a difference of vocabulary then. My ranking usually goes:

A+: Elite player upside or higher, limited to guys like McDavid and Crosby
A: Franchise player upside, guys like Tavares and Eichel
A-: Near franchise player upside, above average 1st liners but not quite at the franchise player level. Kuznetsov jumps out as a perfect example of this.
B+: Average 1st liner upside, this is the highest level that I'd put guys like Sprong, Kyrou and Thomas
B: Top-6 upside, can be either a 1st or 2nd liner. A lot of 1st rounders fall in this category, Poehling falls here for me
B-: 2nd line upside without much of a chance of 1st line upside

This is just for forwards, but you can amend those for D and goalies.

It's too definitive. Prospects are just way to hard to project. There is the Blue Chip guys, the Group behind them, and then the fringe NHL players where some will disappoint and surprise. How can you predict a definite outcome so fine for a prospect? Do you have a crystal ball? A better prediction is a range (Ceiling and Base).

 

[Empoleon8771]

It's too definitive. Prospects are just way to hard to project. There is the Blue Chip guys, the Group behind them, and then the fringe NHL players where some will disappoint and surprise. How can you predict a definite outcome so fine for a prospect? Do you have a crystal ball? A better prediction is a range (Ceiling and Base).

I never said I could predict a definite outcome? You can make educated guesses based on how a prospect performs and adjust accordingly, you know. I basically do the same thing that HF used to do with their prospect rankings, I just use letters to denote upside and ignore likelihood of upside. You seem mad because I just have a more defined way of rating prospects rather than just broad categories.

Players can change those groups too, Sprong wasn't a B+ prospect until he tore apart the Q in 2016-2017. Thomas wasn't a B+ level prospect when he was drafted.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Okay it's just a difference of vocabulary then. My ranking usually goes:

A+: Elite player upside or higher, limited to guys like McDavid and Crosby
A: Franchise player upside, guys like Tavares and Eichel
A-: Near franchise player upside, above average 1st liners but not quite at the franchise player level. Kuznetsov jumps out as a perfect example of this.
B+: Average 1st liner upside, this is the highest level that I'd put guys like Sprong, Kyrou and Thomas
B: Top-6 upside, can be either a 1st or 2nd liner. A lot of 1st rounders fall in this category, Poehling falls here for me
B-: 2nd line upside without much of a chance of 1st line upside

This is just for forwards, but you can amend those for D and goalies.

I think your rankings jive that well with the way most others rank prospects.

But even under your rankings, Thomas is absolutely an A- prospect.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think your rankings jive that well with the way most others rank prospects.

But even under your rankings, Thomas is absolutely an A- prospect.

I can't put anyone on that upside until they've done something at the professional level, whether it be in Europe or in NA. Tearing apart the OHL as a draft+1 player is good, but it's just the OHL. I can't put a guy at a A- rankings just for having a great draft+1 season, when he was a mid-1st rounder a year ago and ranked to go in the mid 1st round. I can't put him on the same level that I have Heiskanen, Tolvanen and Glass, I can't do that based on 1 terrific OHL season.

 

[Captain Mountain]

I can't put anyone on that upside until they've done something at the professional level, whether it be in Europe or in NA. Tearing apart the OHL as a draft+1 player is good, but it's just the OHL. I can't put a guy at a A- rankings just for having a great draft+1 season, when he was a mid-1st rounder a year ago and ranked to go in the mid 1st round. I can't put him on the same level that I have Heiskanen, Tolvanen and Glass, I can't do that based on 1 terrific OHL season.

That limitation pretty much means you can't ever have A ranked players.

And if you can't have Thomas as A-, then you shouldn't have Glass their either.

 

[Empoleon8771]

That limitation pretty much means you can't ever have A ranked players.

What why? That's just completely wrong. Petersen is an A ranked prospect off the top of my head. Hischier, Matthews and Eichel were A ranked prospects when they were drafted too.

And if you can't have Thomas as A-, then you shouldn't have Glass their either.

Glass has had way more success in juniors, was drafted way higher and had a much better pedigree when drafted. Those two aren't comparable, Glass is the better prospect.

Thomas put up 27 less points than Glass did last year and 28 less points the year before. Even if you take it by PPG, Glass was still better last year (Thomas had a pace of 98 points in 62 games, Glass had 102 points in 62 games) and was way better the year before.

 

[Kent Nilsson]

1C is pushing it big time. 2C potential

#1C his upper EV, of course not every player who has that kind of potential ends up reaching it.

 

[strongcomp05]

Oh boy, yikes. I mean, he's not even a PPG player in the NCAA. What makes him a better prospect than Fillip Hallander, who was a Penguins 2nd rounder this year? That's just an example, I could name other players from other teams too, Rasmus Asplund is one that jumps to mind really quickly.

LOL is this even a serious reply? oh hes not a ppg guy in the NCAA, he must be trash lol /s