Value of: Veteran for Matthews' wing

[Kamiccolo]

What would the Leafs give for Nash? He had an off-year last season playing injured, but he's been pretty good this year.

Nothing. It makes no sense to move our valuable pieces (Young) in year 2 for a vet declining on a large contract.

 

[666]

Kessel is a great fit for Matthew's wing, oops ......

 

[Mike Jones]

Kessel is a great fit for Matthew's wing, oops ......

Sad but probably very true.

Kessel has always been a talented support type player. He and Matthews could have set off some serious fireworks together.

 

[Randy Randerson]

"Better than Laine" =/= "the winner of hockey"

There are better players than Laine. Matthews has not been one of them so far.

haha ya, "winner of hockey" is hyperbole for effect, would have thought that was self-evident


and have a look at the links below, unless you want to maintain the illusion that Laine's and Matthews point production is an accurate depiction of their play this far:

http://www.corsica.hockey/skaters/

do a custom query for Laine, Matthews, adjust for Venue, Zone, Score and look at reports for Expected Goals, Corsi, Fenwick

Corsica won't let me put in the link directly for some reason

Anyway, the advanced stats say that Matthews has been the superior player so far. Laine is a great prospect and his scoring has been unreal, but you're placing far, far too much value on goals and assists as a complete representation of how these guys have played

 

[Maukkis]

haha ya, "winner of hockey" is hyperbole for effect, would have thought that was self-evident


and have a look at the links below, unless you want to maintain the illusion that Laine's and Matthews point production is an accurate depiction of their play this far:

http://www.corsica.hockey/skaters/

do a custom query for Laine, Matthews, adjust for Venue, Zone, Score and look at reports for Expected Goals, Corsi, Fenwick

Corsica won't let me put in the link directly for some reason

Anyway, the advanced stats say that Matthews has been the superior player so far. Laine is a great prospect and his scoring has been unreal, but you're placing far, far too much value on goals and assists as a complete representation of how these guys have played

How would you value the 14 points Laine has gotten in the games Winnipeg has won, compared to the two Matthews has had in Toronto's wins? In terms of points in lost games, Matthews leads 10-2.

Laine has contributed a lot already in terms of winning. Haven't seen Matthews doing the same in Toronto. And keep in mind, these two teams are three points apart in the standings.

 

[Randy Randerson]

How would you value the 14 points Laine has gotten in the games Winnipeg has won, compared to the two Matthews has had in Toronto's wins? In terms of points in lost games, Matthews leads 10-2.

Laine has contributed a lot already in terms of winning. Haven't seen Matthews doing the same in Toronto. And keep in mind, these two teams are three points apart in the standings.

If you're going to fall back onto the "clutch" argument over measurables, good luck. Statisticians have been trying to substantiate that for years (see: David Ortiz) without success

Anyway, the advanced stats say that Matthews has been better and I'd prefer that to a few more points on a ~23% shooting percentage because things will regress to their mean. If you wan to hang your hat on Laine scoring in games that you won, or more points in his first 17 games than Matthews has in his first 15 to reaffirm that you got the better player then you do you I guess

 

[Menzinger]

No reason to trade good assets for something the Leafs don't need this season.

If they want a vet on his wing just stick JVR there.

 

[REALTALK81]

Lol wing for Matthews thread turns in to a Laine is greater thread. SHOCKER. Both team have great players. Jets are happy with their sniper who has more points. Leafs fans are happy with their complete franchise C who has 4 less points in 2 less games. We can say who plays the harder position with less effective linemates but it's not a pissing contest. On topic I would love to see Hossa on Matthews wing. Wondering what the cost would be?

 

[Maukkis]

If you're going to fall back onto the "clutch" argument over measurables, good luck. Statisticians have been trying to substantiate that for years (see: David Ortiz) without success

Anyway, the advanced stats say that Matthews has been better and I'd prefer that to a few more points on a ~23% shooting percentage because things will regress to their mean. If you wan to hang your hat on Laine scoring in games that you won, or more points in his first 17 games than Matthews has in his first 15 to reaffirm that you got the better player then you do you I guess

Where did I say anything about clutch? Those were just statistics.

Laine has been producing when the Jets have won, Matthews has been producing when the Leafs have lost. Not complicated at all.

And advanced stats don't tell the full story either. But since this is OT, I'm leaving it here. PM me if you want to discuss further.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Chris kunitz is the man

 

[10Ducky10]

TO isn't winning the cup this year...play out the season and go after a veteran RW UFA like Jagr or Sharp or Radulov.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

I really think a season with Kunitz would be good for Matthews. He still has his wheels. He's just not a kamikazi blowing people up like he used to before but he's still the top guy on the pens for hits.

The problem is in his prime he was magic with Crosby. He's just not in his prime anymore. He's a top 3rd liner that is a good supporting top 6 player.

I think his experience and how he played with Crosby and what those two did could be good for them to work together and let that rub off on Matthews.

 

[Randy Randerson]

Where did I say anything about clutch? Those were just statistics.

Laine has been producing when the Jets have won, Matthews has been producing when the Leafs have lost. Not complicated at all.

And advanced stats don't tell the full story either. But since this is OT, I'm leaving it here. PM me if you want to discuss further.

You're saying Laine's producing in productive situations, where Matthews is producing in unproductive situations...that's what the term "clutch" in a sports context means

Saying that on a less than 20 game sample size and looking at only that information without considering their individual situations (like how bad the leafs goaltending was on those losses, or that Laine plays on a much better team than Matthews with a linemate who's leading the NHL in points) is completely valueless. Advanced stats don't tell the whole story, but with the context applied they do have some value (or NHL teams wouldn't have analytics departments)

not trying to bash Laine, but if you look past the surface at all you'll see that Matthews has been exceptional so far and the goals&assists will follow shortly. The wins might, we're a year removed from a first overall pick, this team isn't built to win yet

sounds good on leaving it here.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

After starting the season on fire with Nylander, Matthews has been ice cold and is now playing with Hyman and Brown. Not an optimal situation for Matthews to break his slump and start producing at an elite level again. I honestly think he needs a solid vet with some skill and a little toughness to be a mentor and wingman while the kid grows into his role. I don't think there's a suitable answer internally so who'd be available and what would the ask from other teams be?

Chris Kunitz.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I really think a season with Kunitz would be good for Matthews. He still has his wheels. He's just not a kamikazi blowing people up like he used to before but he's still the top guy on the pens for hits.

The problem is in his prime he was magic with Crosby. He's just not in his prime anymore. He's a top 3rd liner that is a good supporting top 6 player.

I think his experience and how he played with Crosby and what those two did could be good for them to work together and let that rub off on Matthews.

Yeah I think in a mentor role, he has a lot of leadership to pass on to someone like Matthews, Kunitz was great when the team needed more vets but now that the team is filled with enough veterans to buffer the youth, he just does his thing and that's it, having that extra bit of fire might come from playing beside a kid like Matthews.

 

[Twist and Shout]

Sad but probably very true.

Kessel has always been a talented support type player. He and Matthews could have set off some serious fireworks together.

Yup, but if Phil were here last year we wouldn't finish last overall and so we wouldn't have Auston.

 

[lebdafor norris]

Sad but probably very true.

Kessel has always been a talented support type player. He and Matthews could have set off some serious fireworks together.

Kessel works best when his the offensive catalyst on his line which was why they took him off Malkin's wing and put him on a line with Hagelin and Bonino during the playoffs and why he had such good offensive chemistry with Bozak during his years in TO.

 

[mikeyp24]

Foligno would look good there.

If you mean Nick the price to get him would be much more then TOR would be comfortable with. We would only do it with one of your 3 kids with hype involved somehow and seeing as this thread is to help them I don't think it's gonna happen.

 

[Thai jet*]

Former 31 goal RW sniper Drew Stafford. Soon to be back off minor injury. UFA after season so not stuck with him if Leafs want to move on with a younger guy next season. Will take decent pick. Armia has made Drew expendable once he gets back too.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Sad but probably very true.

Kessel has always been a talented support type player. He and Matthews could have set off some serious fireworks together.

Ok we retain 12 % on Phil kessel.

And we get Marner

 

[tbassett]

Chris Kunitz, all day every day!!

 

[81Leafs50]

No thank you. Stay the course. Do not add losers like Ennis or Moulson. Let the kids grow and create chemistry. Mush like the Raptors did.

 

[Barness01]

We'll give you Pouliot in exchange for a win on Nov. 29