Very quietly Ceci is actually playing very good for us.

[Teeder Keon]

I see him in Seattle in a few years. He should go there now. Get acclimatized.

I ceci emeralds in his future

 

[HC7]

I'd like to see Dermott - Liljegren.

Then next year it will be
Rielly - Pietrangelo
Dermott - Holl
Sandin - Liljegren

 

[Duke Silver]

+2 in vancouver and +1 in colorado games, not too bad i'd say or is Dermott carrying the CECI!

How did I know when I saw this thread that plus/minus would be used.

 

[Bluelines]

How did I know when I saw this thread that plus/minus would be used.

It's a stat that is overly slandered, like any stat you need to understand it with context. Like Hyman for example, didn't he score something like 7 empty netters last year? The goals still count in his stats, they don't count any less. Maybe Ceci started the break outs on his +'s that eventually lead to goals, or maybe he just stepped on the ice, at any rate +/- are not as horrible as a stat as some would suggest, every stat has context and every stat has a back story. If I scored 20 goals and 5 went off my foot, is the 20 goal stat misleading or did I score 20 legitimately?

Being a +2 in a game on the road, would suggest he had a good game, would it not?

 

[MyBudJT]

It's a stat that is overly slandered, like any stat you need to understand it with context. Like Hyman for example, didn't he score something like 7 empty netters last year? The goals still count in his stats, they don't count any less. Maybe Ceci started the break outs on his +'s that eventually lead to goals, or maybe he just stepped on the ice, at any rate +/- are not as horrible as a stat as some would suggest, every stat has context and every stat has a back story. If I scored 20 goals and 5 went off my foot, is the 20 goal stat misleading or did I score 20 legitimately?

Being a +2 in a game on the road, would suggest he had a good game, would it not?

Well said.

The objective of hockey is to outscore your opponent. If you're on the ice for more goals than against, that is a good thing. If you're on the ice for more goals against that goals for, that is a bad thing. Like most stats, usage will greately influence these outcomes (although its often ignored with everything)... if you play against harder competition, your numbers may not look all-that flattering.

+/- isn't very useful for small-scale analyses (i.e. is there really a big difference between -3 and -5, especially when you don't consider usage)... but where it can be useful is when comparing at a larger scale.

I.E. Tyson Barrie is -11... the second lowest on the team is -6... Justin Holl is +9.

When you consider that Justin Holl on average players more difficult minutes than Tyson Barrie, you can see that one has significantly been better than the other.

 

[Duke Silver]

It's a stat that is overly slandered, like any stat you need to understand it with context. Like Hyman for example, didn't he score something like 7 empty netters last year? The goals still count in his stats, they don't count any less. Maybe Ceci started the break outs on his +'s that eventually lead to goals, or maybe he just stepped on the ice, at any rate +/- are not as horrible as a stat as some would suggest, every stat has context and every stat has a back story. If I scored 20 goals and 5 went off my foot, is the 20 goal stat misleading or did I score 20 legitimately?

Being a +2 in a game on the road, would suggest he had a good game, would it not?

When you have to provide that much context (nobody ever does), it doesn’t really stand up on its own as valuable.

Especially when it’s being misused to determine defensive proficiency, when it’s literally just a tally of goals for and against at evens + shorthanded goals for and against.

It’s overly misused and that misuse is what leads to the slandering.

 

[Bluelines]

When you have to provide that much context (nobody ever does), it doesn’t really stand up on its own as valuable.

Especially when it’s being misused to determine defensive proficiency, when it’s literally just a tally of goals for and against at evens + shorthanded goals for and against.

It’s overly misused and that misuse is what leads to the slandering.

Is there a single stat that you can use at face value and say it needs no supporting context? Goals, Assists, SOG, GAA, Hits, all standard stats that need context to understand their meaning.

 

[zeke]

Is there a single stat that you can use at face value and say it needs no supporting context? Goals, Assists, SOG, GAA, Hits, all standard stats that need context to understand their meaning.

the beauty of the advanced stats is they literally build in most of the context needed - i.e. ice time, game situation, usage, etc.

that's what makes them better - they intrinsically include a lot of context that the normal numbers do not.

 

[Bluelines]

the beauty of the advanced stats is they literally build in most of the context needed - i.e. ice time, game situation, usage, etc.

that's what makes them better - they intrinsically include a lot of context that the normal numbers do not.

Dubas was quoted as saying Ceci's underlying metrics were really good... when the eye test told us that he was playing like garbage. I'm not sure the statement that Advance Stats have context built in is accurate.

 

[zeke]

Dubas was quoted as saying Ceci's underlying metrics were really good... when the eye test told us that he was playing like garbage. I'm not sure the statement that Advance Stats have context built in is accurate.

I would argue that Ceci was actually playing well to start the year, with Babs' system more suited to his skillset, but that he was completely exposed under Keefe's more demanding system. Though has been fine now that he's down on the bottom pair.

 

[Bluelines]

I would argue that Ceci was actually playing well to start the year, with Babs' system more suited to his skillset, but that he was completely exposed under Keefe's more demanding system. Though has been fine now that he's down on the bottom pair.

No disagreement from me on Ceci and he is better suited in the third pairing.

I think many people would take exception with the statement Babcock's system was better suited for Ceci.

Keefe plays a "man" , puck possession type system, that should benefit Ceci. For lack of a better word I call Babcock's system a "zone" defence, stretch pass, dump and chase system, the zone D Babcock was playing put too much pressure on systematic defensive play, I personally think Ceci's problem under both coaches is how he is utilized, not the system per se.

 

[Its not your fault]

It's a stat that is overly slandered, like any stat you need to understand it with context. Like Hyman for example, didn't he score something like 7 empty netters last year? The goals still count in his stats, they don't count any less. Maybe Ceci started the break outs on his +'s that eventually lead to goals, or maybe he just stepped on the ice, at any rate +/- are not as horrible as a stat as some would suggest, every stat has context and every stat has a back story. If I scored 20 goals and 5 went off my foot, is the 20 goal stat misleading or did I score 20 legitimately?

Being a +2 in a game on the road, would suggest he had a good game, would it not?

I do agree he's not a 20 goal scorer but he works like it. Aswell as he did get them no one else scored them for him. Unless the other team stopped trying then sure it's just a stat. That now says eyes have some merit.

 

[mapleleaf979]

No disagreement from me on Ceci and he is better suited in the third pairing.

I think many people would take exception with the statement Babcock's system was better suited for Ceci.

Keefe plays a "man" , puck possession type system, that should benefit Ceci. For lack of a better word I call Babcock's system a "zone" defence, stretch pass, dump and chase system, the zone D Babcock was playing put too much pressure on systematic defensive play, I personally think Ceci's problem under both coaches is how he is utilized, not the system per se.

Ceci is an average skating defenseman, he isn't good at winning battles, he is average at everything. The biggest thing that holds Ceci back though is his hockey sense he lacks any kind of vision or deception to open the ice up aka never makes a play. Its not system related at all. He is a downgrade from Zaitsev overall but thankfully Ceci is UFA after the year. His hockey sense will not change, he wont be a Top 4 dman. He is a 1 million dollar bottom pairing d-man and that's on Dubas for not letting Ceci walk.

 

[zeke]

I'd like to see Dermott - Liljegren.

Then next year it will be
Rielly - Pietrangelo
Dermott - Holl
Sandin - Liljegren

Man Holl's development has really changed the outlook going forward.

Yeah, I'm all on board replacing all of barrie/muzzin/ceci with one bigtime RHD now. All of dermott Holl Sandin Lilly belong on the team next year, and maybe even right now tbh.

 

[Teeder Keon]

Man Holl's developmental has really changed the outlook going forward.

Yeah, I'm all on board replacing all of barrie/muzzin/ceci with one bigtime RHD now. All of dermott Holl Sandin Lilly belong on the team next year, and maybe even right now tbh.

I totally agree with you on what you’ve stated ....

 

[zeke]

Man how hilarious will it be when after all the kerfuffle about the leafs' contracts, and cap hell, and all the screaming about "LOL U CANT GIVE HALF UR CAP TO 4 PLAYERZ"....

....the leafs just go right out and sign the biggest and best UFA next year, too?

 

[zeke]

Man how hilarious will it be when after all the kerfuffle about the leafs' contracts, and cap hell, and all the screaming about "LOL U CANT GIVE HALF UR CAP TO 4 PLAYERZ"....

....the leafs just go right out and sign the biggest and best UFA next year, too?

...and the leafs will STILL have some of the best depth in the NHL, too.

 

[Bluelines]

Ceci is an average skating defenseman, he isn't good at winning battles, he is average at everything. The biggest thing that holds Ceci back though is his hockey sense he lacks any kind of vision or deception to open the ice up aka never makes a play. Its not system related at all. He is a downgrade from Zaitsev overall but thankfully Ceci is UFA after the year. His hockey sense will not change, he wont be a Top 4 dman. He is a 1 million dollar bottom pairing d-man and that's on Dubas for not letting Ceci walk.

I've never seen a NHLer skate himself into corners so frequently he is so bad at skating himself into a corner, if you put him in a round room, he'd find a corner to stand in.

 

[Commander Clueless]

Man how hilarious will it be when after all the kerfuffle about the leafs' contracts, and cap hell, and all the screaming about "LOL U CANT GIVE HALF UR CAP TO 4 PLAYERZ"....

....the leafs just go right out and sign the biggest and best UFA next year, too?

Pretty hilarious, but only if they actually allocate some money to a backup goalie as well. I'm getting sick of the carousel of suck behind Freddy.

The lack of points from a backup are really hurting us right now.


I'll be happy as a clam signing Pietro, but I wonder what happens if they take the risk of letting Barrie and Muzzin walk and then also miss on Pietrangelo....


Ceci will walk no doubt....unless he wants to sign a cheap #7D contract perhaps.

 

[SprDaVE]

He's been loudly bad to me.

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

Fact is for most of season, all three Leafs RHD were playing poor to average. Ceci certainly wasn't any worse than Barrie for much of the season. For about the first eight games of the year, Ceci's Dman partner, Reilly was the worse Leafs Dman. So while Ceci ceiling might be average, trading for another teams bottom end Dman doesn't solve Leafs problems,
We'll see next year how the new look Leafs are: Reilly, Dermot, Liljegren, Sandin and maybe hopefully the resigning of Holl. Now figuring out who are the next two guys now that Muzzin, Barrie and Ceci are gone via UFA will be question.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Ceci is our weakest dman. He tries hard but lacks brains. I thought he was stronger but bottom line he is mostly in the wrong spot. He can't utilize his strength. and when he does get to right spots occasionally he does not reef people. We should try to unload him on someone who will take his CAP. We need some space. I'd rather have Lily playing on 3rd starting to learn the ropes.

 

[zeke]

Pretty hilarious, but only if they actually allocate some money to a backup goalie as well. I'm getting sick of the carousel of suck behind Freddy.

The lack of points from a backup are really hurting us right now.


I'll be happy as a clam signing Pietro, but I wonder what happens if they take the risk of letting Barrie and Muzzin walk and then also miss on Pietrangelo....


Ceci will walk no doubt....unless he wants to sign a cheap #7D contract perhaps.

how much money do you want to spend on a back up, exactly?

 

[JT AM da real deal]

how much money do you want to spend on a back up, exactly?

Who cares at this point we have NOTHING. If Hutch plays VS Detroit on Saturday everyone will be crapping their pant leg hoping we can get a point. We should not have to be in this terrible spot.

 

[ER89]

It's a stat that is overly slandered, like any stat you need to understand it with context. Like Hyman for example, didn't he score something like 7 empty netters last year? The goals still count in his stats, they don't count any less. Maybe Ceci started the break outs on his +'s that eventually lead to goals, or maybe he just stepped on the ice, at any rate +/- are not as horrible as a stat as some would suggest, every stat has context and every stat has a back story. If I scored 20 goals and 5 went off my foot, is the 20 goal stat misleading or did I score 20 legitimately?

Being a +2 in a game on the road, would suggest he had a good game, would it not?

Not really. He could have been on the ice for two goals that were scored by say auston matthews without contributing at all, and at the same time have had multiple give aways that freddy just made huge saves on. Its a garbage stat and should never be used except for a ' oh wow brent lebda went -3 in a 7-3 win'.