Prospect Info: Vancouver Canucks Top 25 Prospects 2015 - #11

MS

1%er
Mar 18, 2002
53,612
84,152
Vancouver, BC
I obviously have concerns about Pedan's concussion situation.

But at the same time, he's younger than Hutton and pretty clearly ahead of him in development.

Hutton is getting pretty over-rated here IMO.
 

biturbo19

Registered User
Jul 13, 2010
25,672
10,666
While there are likely pitfalls ahead, having a matured Hutton and Subban on the blue line of the first-unit PP is eagerly anticipated by me,
after the mediocre performances we've seen since Erhoff left.

Two cannon shots, with mobility and creativity. Likely with another cannon in McCann,
with Cassels distributing, and Horvat taking the draws and storming the crease.

Of course, this is fantasy . . . but a fantasy that could reasonably come to pass, since these are all young Canucks of roughly the same age.
Anyway, those two D have the rare quality of goal-scoring going for them, given their monster NCAA and CHL success in that area, and for which the Canuck D have been plainly starved.

I could live with some own-zone errors (we do anyway) just to see some very dangerous shots from the points. I think Hutton and Subban will make it because the Canucks clearly need an offensive threat from the back end. And if Benning has proven one thing, it's that he seeks out guys who can "rip the puck."

Thus I'd vote Hutton and Subban in that order, giving Hutton the slight nod due to his NHL size. But let's not forget about Subban's outrageous shot, along with his offensive mobility and confidence.

At the very least, we should hopefully get a chance to see that PP point duo as early as the Young Stars Tournament - and hopefully in the AHL this year. :naughty:

Shouldn't Baertschi be in this list? He hasn't even made the team yet, and even though he will because of his waiver status, he still seems very much like a prospect.

Not with like 70 NHL games played.

He's kind of on the fringes of "prospect status" in that he hasn't really "made it" yet, and has sort of bumbled around and taken a step back with the Flames before we acquired him. But in technical terms, he's really not a "prospect" anymore by virtue of all the NHL games he's played, and the fact that he's all but guaranteed to be on the NHL roster this season as "fully graduated", for better or worse.
 

WinterEmpire

Unregistered User
Mar 20, 2011
5,997
215
Vancouver
Subban or we riot. (not really)

Why do I feel if he was even and inch or two taller he would have been closer to the top 5 in these rankings. Whenever I've watched him he just oozes offensive talent and he not incompetent in his own end. I get that size will be likely be an issue that prevents him from being a top pairing guy but he has the ability to be a highly valuable specialty defense man imo. Give him offensive zone starts, PP time and easy minutes. He would be an asset at the NHL level.
 

MS

1%er
Mar 18, 2002
53,612
84,152
Vancouver, BC
Subban or we riot. (not really)

Why do I feel if he was even and inch or two taller he would have been closer to the top 5 in these rankings. Whenever I've watched him he just oozes offensive talent and he not incompetent in his own end. I get that size will be likely be an issue that prevents him from being a top pairing guy but he has the ability to be a highly valuable specialty defense man imo. Give him offensive zone starts, PP time and easy minutes. He would be an asset at the NHL level.

I have a lot of faith in Subban as a prospect and believe he'll succeed if given a chance ... but I don't have faith that he'll get a fair shot from the organization.
 

Aqualung

Registered User
Nov 16, 2007
4,453
2,599
I obviously have concerns about Pedan's concussion situation.

But at the same time, he's younger than Hutton and pretty clearly ahead of him in development.

Hutton is getting pretty over-rated here IMO.

While I agree with your assessment, I think Pedan's multiple serious concussions are far too concerning for me to believe he has any future in the NHL.
 

Bad Goalie

Registered User
Jan 2, 2014
20,091
8,776
Still Grenier. His elevation from a lost cause to a key contributor on a successful Utica team is damn impressive.

And still: add Joe Cannata. He has every chance to finally prove himself this season as Utica's #1.

Not with AHL 2014-15 All-Star goalie Richard Bachman ahead of him. Joe will be a backup, not a 1b.
 

Bad Goalie

Registered User
Jan 2, 2014
20,091
8,776
Still Grenier. His elevation from a lost cause to a key contributor on a successful Utica team is damn impressive.

And still: add Joe Cannata. He has every chance to finally prove himself this season as Utica's #1.

First off, most posters here have not really seen Grenier play on a regular basis. Their opinion is based largely on his development since being in the Canucks system. His stats are largely what people judge him by. Last season was an explosion of his innate talent. Late bloomer? Don't know what you call it, but he all of a sudden GOT IT!

Secondly, he is no longer a shiny new toy and thus automatically slides back down the list. He is the most competent forward currently on the prospect list. Utility special team guy is only half possible. He could play on the PP, but he is not a penalty killer. He has just become somewhat defensively responsible, but not PK worthy.

He has become a very good passer. He has a wicked wrist shot, the best on Utica's team. He has good hands, good speed, and decent moves, and skates well. His physical side of the game has developed way beyond his past performance output. His IQ has increased with his confidence. He plays through a mistake instead of moping over it. He is the best forward prospect coming up the pipe right now. Baertschi is not considered a prospect in my way of thinking. He is on the roster due to his waiver situation. Incidentally, during the Comets' amazing playoff run, Grenier and Shinkaruk/Jensen played on the first line centered by O'Reilly. Baertschi played on the second line. Both were on the first PP unit. The two finished the playoffs tied for second in points with 15 each.

Now I get hammered. Grenier is a better all around hockey player than Virtanen at this stage of Jake's development. Alex scores goals!
He is the most mature of the prospects. He has been well coached to the level he is now prepared for. He also has moves and maneuvers well vs. close checking.

Jake goes up and down the wing. He is a straight ahead, North/South winger. That's the reason for his reverse checks. He doesn't veer off his path to avoid a hit, he just lowers his shoulder and tries to go through the defender. Methinks this will hurt him in the future. Running over every checker will eventually result in injury to himself. The bull in the china shop mentality only goes so far. I know everyone wants to see the #6 draft pick play in the NHL, but I seriously believe he would benefit from another season in Jrs. Give him his 9 games if you must, but then let him hone his scoring touch and develop a more skilled game, become a true power forward, not just a bottom 6 crash and bang guy. He's a #6 pick and should evolve into something better than that. That's a position for a 3rd rounder or worse.

Grenier can contribute the most as a complete player right now.

Of course we all know that can evaporate in the midst of NHL pressure, but that is true with any player coming up. You have to give them the ice and see what happens.

Training camp will be a proving ground for several guys, Grenier should be among those who get the chance to make or break themselves. I think he at least becomes the first call-up from Utica.
 
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Bad Goalie

Registered User
Jan 2, 2014
20,091
8,776
I obviously have concerns about Pedan's concussion situation.

But at the same time, he's younger than Hutton and pretty clearly ahead of him in development.

Hutton is getting pretty over-rated here IMO.

Having watched them both (admittedly Hutton's workload was very small), Pedan is definitely the better of the two at the moment. I worry about Pedan's head (both from a concussion standpoint and from the fact that he "likes to fight", the two don't bode well together).

Hutton has had little chance to develop his game at the professional level. Utica will be his classroom right off the bat and Subban will be a very close classmate. Pedan will be an upper classman to begin with. We'll see who progresses faster and farther. Pedan should climb higher at the same rate and stay ahead of them if he is the real deal.
 

m9

m9
Sponsor
Jan 23, 2010
25,107
15,229
Been voting Pedan for a few. I don't mind the other d-men ahead of them because they seem to be very close to NHL-caliber already, but with Hutton and Pedan both being longshots at this point I just don't think you can go against Pedan. If he hits his potential, who knows what the ceiling is.
 

thefeebster

Registered User
Mar 13, 2009
7,183
1,646
Vancouver
I obviously have concerns about Pedan's concussion situation.

But at the same time, he's younger than Hutton and pretty clearly ahead of him in development.

Hutton is getting pretty over-rated here IMO.

How exactly is Hutton being "pretty over-rated" here? He is winning by 4 now 3 votes in one of the closest polls yet. Hutton only just left the NCAA and has barely had a chance to play in the AHL, not even a season's worth of games to evaluate, not even a handful of games. You and others make it sound like he is a old man who sat on the bench the entire season behind trash like Negrin, is now stale and on the verge of bust territory.

You have a lot of faith in Subban, but appear to have zilch for Hutton? That's really odd to me since they are very similar players. Hutton is Subban in a bigger and more physical package. Both are puck rushers with great first passes as well, they are equally as talented offensively, both have great shots, both skate extremely well, and both share similar knocks on their defensive game. I think if you guys watched Subban closely in the OHL, you would share some serious concerns. He has very evident problems defending. He is not a very tenacious defender, he has troubles with bigger players in front of the net and along the boards despite having a lot of muscle on his frame already, and he is fairly lackadaisical at times. He is not a Joe Hicketts in his own zone. Last game i watched of Belleville, Subban didn't even play on the PK. I'm curious how he translate to the AHL, i expect him to be very sheltered at that level and the next if he makes it.
 
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biturbo19

Registered User
Jul 13, 2010
25,672
10,666
How exactly is Hutton being "pretty over-rated" here? He is winning by 4 now 3 votes in one of the closest polls yet. Hutton only just left the NCAA and has barely had a chance to play in the AHL, not even a season's worth of games to evaluate, not even a handful of games. You and others make it sound like he is a old man who sat on the bench the entire season behind trash like Negrin, is now stale and on the verge of bust territory.

You have a lot of faith in Subban, but appear to have zilch for Hutton? That's really odd to me since they are very similar players. Hutton is Subban in a bigger and more physical package. Both are puck rushers with great first passes as well, they are equally as talented offensively, both have great shots, both skate extremely well, and both share similar knocks on their defensive game. I think if you guys watched Subban closely in the OHL, you would share some serious concerns. He has very evident problems defending. He is not a very tenacious defender, he has troubles with bigger players in front of the net and along the boards despite having a lot of muscle on his frame already, and he is fairly lackadaisical at times. He is not a Joe Hicketts in his own zone. Last game i watched of Belleville, Subban didn't even play on the PK. I'm curious how he translate to the AHL, i expect him to be very sheltered at that level and the next if he makes it.

Yeah. I can see a lot of the reasons for betting on Subban here, the pedigree, and he's such a natural offensive player...but there are plenty of obstacles there. Which is where i find it a bit funny, how much i seem to see the word "upside" tossed around with Subban. At best, i could see him becoming basically a Torrey Krug...if everything goes exceptionally well. That's i think, the absolute realistic "ceiling" for him with his size and defensive issues. Which doesn't seem like that high an "upside" to me, certainly not as high as a guy like Hutton who, like you're saying...is potentially the same sort of thing in a far bigger package.
 

TheWanderer

Registered User
Nov 15, 2013
4,959
32
It's funny how we piled together all these similar-leveled d-men. It will be interesting to watch them all funnel through the AHL, and who comes out the other end (funny that we traded for Clendening and Pedan, the latter of whom I like much more, in a case where we already have this glut).

I don't think any one of these players are a safe bet, aside from Clendening and Corrado who are already capable #5-6 D-men. But they aren't even certain to be #4's.

The whole spectrum is there, from Corrado, Clendening, to guys like Tryamkin and Pedan, to guys like Subban and Hutton - and now Brisebois.

Who comes out the other end? I don't think it matters "who?". What matters is "how many", IMO. I hope we get a couple second pairing guys out of this lot. If we luck out, we'll strike another top pairing (Tanev or Edler) level guy out of this bunch, but that is still only a #2 D-man.

None of these guys are #1 material, IMO, unless something really interesting happens with Tryamkin or Pedan. Those two have the highest ceiling, if you ask me, but the likelihood of them reaching it goes at a parabolic rate.

This annual series of polls will look very interesting when we look at the last couple years compared to this and next. This d-man situation is going to unfold right before our eyes this season and next. Probably one of the only reasons to follow the Canucks right now :sarcasm:
 

TheWanderer

Registered User
Nov 15, 2013
4,959
32
First off, most posters here have not really seen Grenier play on a regular basis. Their opinion is based largely on his development since being in the Canucks system. His stats are largely what people judge him by. Last season was an explosion of his innate talent. Late bloomer? Don't know what you call it, but he all of a sudden GOT IT!

Secondly, he is no longer a shiny new toy and thus automatically slides back down the list. He is the most competent forward currently on the prospect list. Utility special team guy is only half possible. He could play on the PP, but he is not a penalty killer. He has just become somewhat defensively responsible, but not PK worthy.

He has become a very good passer. He has a wicked wrist shot, the best on Utica's team. He has good hands, good speed, and decent moves, and skates well. His physical side of the game has developed way beyond his past performance output. His IQ has increased with his confidence. He plays through a mistake instead of moping over it. He is the best forward prospect coming up the pipe right now. Baertschi is not considered a prospect in my way of thinking. He is on the roster due to his waiver situation. Incidentally, during the Comets' amazing playoff run, Grenier and Shinkaruk/Jensen played on the first line centered by O'Reilly. Baertschi played on the second line. Both were on the first PP unit. The two finished the playoffs tied for second in points with 15 each.

Now I get hammered. Grenier is a better all around hockey player than Virtanen at this stage of Jake's development. Alex scores goals!
He is the most mature of the prospects. He has been well coached to the level he is now prepared for. He also has moves and maneuvers well vs. close checking.

Jake goes up and down the wing. He is a straight ahead, North/South winger. That's the reason for his reverse checks. He doesn't veer off his path to avoid a hit, he just lowers his shoulder and tries to go through the defender. Methinks this will hurt him in the future. Running over every checker will eventually result in injury to himself. The bull in the china shop mentality only goes so far. I know everyone wants to see the #6 draft pick play in the NHL, but I seriously believe he would benefit from another season in Jrs. Give him his 9 games if you must, but then let him hone his scoring touch and develop a more skilled game, become a true power forward, not just a bottom 6 crash and bang guy. He's a #6 pick and should evolve into something better than that. That's a position for a 3rd rounder or worse.

Grenier can contribute the most as a complete player right now.

Of course we all know that can evaporate in the midst of NHL pressure, but that is true with any player coming up. You have to give them the ice and see what happens.

Training camp will be a proving ground for several guys, Grenier should be among those who get the chance to make or break themselves. I think he at least becomes the first call-up from Utica.

Grenier is the Corrado of the forward group. He's just about NHL ready, but his ceiling is way below that of our top prospects.

Grenier should be getting voted in somewhere within this batch of D-men. The real problem is how unknown these D-men are. Most people are regurgitating information regarding guys like Hutton or Subban. Not many people really have an idea where to place them. Almost nobody knows anything about Tryamkin or Brisebois (cuz new). Pedan has question marks due to injury.

And just like you say, the spotlight has been off of Grenier for so long that it's hard for him to get back in it, no matter what he does. I hope he has a stellar camp and puts himself onto a first-call-up basis. When he puts on a Canucks uniform and plays an NHL regular season game, then the spotlight will be on him. It's the same reason the spotlight is placed firmly on Corrado and Clendening right now. Just like Subban getting votes over Hutton, because the spotlight is more on Subban.


Grenier - can he expand on his great season?
Corrado - Can he take the next step?
Clendening - can he stop being passed by other prospects?
Pedan - concussion issues
Tryamkin - hard to judge because different league, different continent. Russian factor.
Subban - size.
Hutton - How does he handle the step to Pro?
Brisebois - bad team, d-man from the Q. Question marks are inherent here.

They all have NHL upside. All of them. They all have hurdles, too.


Personally, I think they are all about the same, so I don't really care that much how the poll goes right now :laugh:
 

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