Confirmed with Link: [VAN/TOR] Vancouver acquires Josh Leivo in exchange for Michael Carcone.

Discussion in 'Vancouver Canucks' started by cookiefest, Dec 3, 2018.

  1. 420Canuck

    420Canuck Registered User

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    Dude, that is a lowball. Edler has more points this year than Gudbranson has in the 3 seasons he's been here combined. Offering him an average of $1m more per year, than a guy who gets torched in 2nd pairing minutes and brings little else to the table is definitely a lowball.
     
  2. Jay Cee

    Jay Cee P4G

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    "You get hurt" is not a negotiating tactic. Production dictates a certain amount of salary based on precedent, especially on short term deals. Cap includes protection for injuries, so does insurance on salaries. There is nothing wrong with Bae's salary anyway.
     
  3. 420Canuck

    420Canuck Registered User

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    Explain to me how there is very little leverage?

    Teams don't ball and chain their top players....when did Gaudreau finally sign his contract with Calgary? Why is Nathan Mackinnon only making $800k more than Bo...ditto with Monahan. Both these players had significantly better resumes at the time. In hindsight, the contract is good, but it could've been great. Wennberg was a player most thought was on the high end for Bo's contract at the time, he earns $600k less. Ultimately I'm not to worried about the overpays on your core.....but nearly every contract this regime has signed is inflate, and it leads to problems....see my reply to alternate for reasons.

    One of the biggest examples of an overpay is Markstrom. They literally signed him to a 3 year deal after one season as a back up, a full one year before they needed to. It just didn't make sense. It's not egregious, but they absolutely had no reason to triple his salary after 33 games as a back up, with a 3 year extension, starting after the next season....why not wait? Look how much Pittsburgh just signed Casey Desmith for.

    I'm not sure if you don't get it anymore, I think I would say that you just don't care. You're content to just let the chips fall and hope it turns out, I'd say I want the best management of the team possible that best allows the team to become a contender and I don't think overpaying every contract makes sense.

    And it's not just $500k-$1m in my mind either, some of these deals signed are way more than that.
     
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  4. Intangibos

    Intangibos High-End Intangibos

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    You say that as if Gudbranson was given that contract by a team that sees him as a guy who gets torched in 2nd pairing minutes. They think Gudbranson is good.

    If you're using the reality of Gudbranson's play as a benchmark then Stetcher and Hutton would be getting $5m
     
  5. 420Canuck

    420Canuck Registered User

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    I think it is.

    Why wouldn't it.

    This isn't arbitration, you tell Baertschi: "Sven, not sure you can stay healthy enough to count on, and we have some young players coming up. We can pay you something on a one year deal, but if you want the security of term, then you'll need to give up some AAV".

    I think that's how it works. His salary is "fine" as people like to say, but it could've been better. They could've used leverage to keep it lower, and if it was lower I think he'd actually be a considerably more valuable asset.
     
  6. 420Canuck

    420Canuck Registered User

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    It was an example...I could've used Eriksson too, or Beagle or whoever.
     
  7. Jay Cee

    Jay Cee P4G

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    You don't get any fairer than fair. He is just right there with players who have similar production.
     
  8. 420Canuck

    420Canuck Registered User

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    Don't you want to get better? Don't you want to add good players to EP. Don't you want to maximize paying EP's ELC by actually giving him legitimate talent to support him.

    "fine" and "okay" being the best descriptors for the situation is not fine or ok to me.
     
  9. 420Canuck

    420Canuck Registered User

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    Per game? Do organizations only look at per game statistics? His high water mark is 18 goals and 35 points. If Goldy hits 35 this year you want to pay him $3m++ with term?

    What are you paying Ben Hutton moving forward?

    Fair is a strange thing...was it fair when Kucherov signed for under $5m while leading his team in scoring, and making $4m less than Stamkos. Things like leverage are actual things, and good organizations use it.

    Paying fair price for everything gives you no competitive advantage, good teams look to exploit every competitive advantage they can get.
     
  10. F A N

    F A N Registered User

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    ? Are you saying McKinnon signed low ball contracts or that they were pressured to sign a below market value contract? Why is McKinnon only making $800K more than Bo? McKinnon signed his contract coming off a 21 goal 52 point season. Previous year he had 14 goals and 38 points. Bo was coming off a 20 goal 52 point season. Previous year Bo had 16 goals and 40 points. Basically, Bo had similar numbers over the past 2 years, signed for one less year, less money, and with no NTC. Explain to me how Bo's contract is some sort of overpayment compared to McKinnons at the time the contract was signed?

    As for Gaudreau, he held out, was off to a slow start, and the Flames missed the playoffs. I'm not saying it wasn't a good contract but that contract only bought one year of UFA. In comparison, Tarasenko's higher cap hit bought 4.

    I'm not sure why you don't get it. Markstrom was coming off a season where he had 30 starts and posted a .915 SV% with one year left before he is a UFA. The Canucks obviously banked on him taking over as the #1. That contract had risk vs reward built in. The Lightning did something similar with Vasilevskiy. They extended him one year before they had to as well and he was in his RFA years.

    It's not that hard to understand. If you wait until a player proves himself you usually end up paying more but there's more of a track record. When you don't wait you usually end up paying less but there's more risk.
     
  11. 420Canuck

    420Canuck Registered User

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    Markstrom signed a contract in July 2016 that didn't start until the 17/18 season. Why?

    Casey Desmith is putting up better numbers than Markstrom is right now, the cap has risen and he was actually an upcoming UFA not in another year, and the Pens got him at 1/3 the cost.

    If you don't see the issue with paying for potential unneccesarily you never will. Same as Hutton. And sure, you can say that waiting makes the price go up, but can also go down.

    For every Ryan Ellis or Roman Josi there's a Zaitsev.

    Wiser managers understand these things and care about them, most of them don't slough it off as "fine" or "okay" or "whoops", they're continually trying to use everything at their disposal to ultimately have a contender and if they're not, then they're doing poorly. T
     
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  12. Jay Cee

    Jay Cee P4G

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    Apples and oranges.

    Kucherov signed a cap friendly bridge deal based on the fact that he is on a cup contender. He has since signed a nice long term deal with a discount for the same reason. He could have done any number of things to make more money. That's what you call real leverage, not telling a guy that we are just going to pay you less because you miss some games.

    I am also not talking about PPG purely. If you crunch the numbers Bae's salary is not based purely on PPG. It is just dealing with comparable players what they have to make. We have no leverage. We are not a good team we are trying to squeeze him into, and frankly we need him in our top 6 every bit as much as he needs to be in our top 6.

    Goldobin we are trying to trade and is a healthy scratch by times, so not a great comparable. We obviously don't want him and he walks. Hutton is a bit of a different animal because he has crawled out of the dog house and has put together an ok season. We will see what he gets paid, or what even happens to him at the end of the year before we talk about his extension.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2019
  13. Intangibos

    Intangibos High-End Intangibos

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    Eriksson's contract doesn't matter in negotiations either though because everyone knows he's underperforming. Baertschi didn't get Eriksson money despite being better, and management even no doubt knows hes underperforming unlike Gudbranson.

    Beagle is a better example, but it's kind of apples and oranges in regards to Edler.
     
  14. 420Canuck

    420Canuck Registered User

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    I just don't believe in having two different standards for evaluation. Good team vs bad team shouldn't matter as much as you're making it out to.

    Baertschi's been healthy scratched. I want to know what you would pay Goldobin and Hutton. I know the situation, I want you to put it out there because fair is fair, right?
    I'm just replying to not be rude, but this doesn't make sense.

    Eriksson's matters, because you say, look what happened the last time you had a guy supposedly performing at a high level into his 30's. You commited to him until he was 37....that's the comparison.
     
  15. F A N

    F A N Registered User

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    Seriously. It's called an extension. "[McDavid] signed a contract in July 201[7 ]that didn't start until [18/19] season. Why?" :rolleyes:
     
  16. Intangibos

    Intangibos High-End Intangibos

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    No. No agent is going to point at Eriksson as a reason his client should get a big contract
     
  17. nucksflailtogether

    nucksflailtogether Registered User

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    Last night has me convinced...we have a very good player on our hands. Which is big considering our terrible wing depth.
     
  18. MS

    MS 1%er

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    He’s been solid. Probably the best move Benning has ever made.

    Solid depth winger who can move around all lines and contribute and help the 2nd unit PP. What Granlund is supposed to be but isn’t.
     
  19. Pastor Of Muppetz

    Pastor Of Muppetz Registered User

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    We're still shallow on the wings..and I dont know if Leivo is a top 6 winger..He was great last night,I really underestimated his stick handling and shot..(Antione Roussel is another player that demonstrates some fairly deft skills...He's more than just an agitator)
     
  20. Burke's Evil Spirit

    Burke's Evil Spirit Registered User

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    Leivo is one of 6 or so decent third-liners this team has. Worth keeping around given his age and cap hit. Not a difference maker in the long-run of things.
     
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  21. Neddam ot Sehguh

    Neddam ot Sehguh Nosskire ot Dnulnarg W

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    I thought when Leivo came here was gonna be a nother Lipesic or similar high ups but mostly low downs. BUT he seems to actually be getting better, is creative, great stick handling, and responsible defensively

    SOLID trade even if Toronto was despy to trade him
     
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  22. Drop the Sopel

    Drop the Sopel Feaster famine

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    Trade has played out pretty much how Leaf fans said it would, to a man. He came billed as a strong middle 6 forward that would be hard along the boards and put the puck in the net, and that's what he's done. Looks like a nice piece for the longterm. Moves surprisingly well and has better one on one moves than I was expecting. Looks like a no-brainer to retain going forward.
     
  23. iceburg

    iceburg Don't ask why

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    Excellent addition. Skates better than initial posts implied. He's the kind of player every team needs in their middle six. He's Motte but bigger and with better finish...in other words, not Motte.
     
  24. moog35

    moog35 Registered User

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    Benning fleeced Dubas in the Leivo trade :yo:
     
  25. mstad101

    mstad101 Registered User

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    Did Baertschi die?
     
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