Confirmed with Link: [VAN/TOR] Vancouver acquires Josh Leivo in exchange for Michael Carcone.

tantalum

Hope for the best. Expect the worst
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Apr 2, 2002
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The Canucks have about 35 million in cap room (under a 81 million cap)with 14 players signed (4 d-men, 1 Goalie, 9 fwds)
Players that need to be resigned, Edler , Boeser ,Hutton , Thats about 16 million. Getting another good d-man is going to cost at lest 6 more, plus add Hughes for 1 million more. If you spend 8,5 on Stone. Thats 31,5 million.

Almost No cap left, and that a 7 D, 11 FWD, 1 Goalie line up. Remember if Pettersson or Hughes hit bonuses those gets added to the cap next year if you can't fit them under this years bonus.

To add a top winger and another d-man the Canucks need to move out some overpaid players.

And don't forget about the possibility of the Luongo cap recapture....

I don't think it's going to happen as at this stage if Luongo wants to hang them up he'll just get some sort of post-career corrective surgery and sit on the LTIR until the contract expires. But if he does retire it's going to get ugly.

They do need to move the dead weight out. I think Sutter and Gudbranson for sure. And then you need to really look at the lower paid guys and see who can be replaced with a league minimum guy to free up those 500k and $1 mil increments.
 

4Twenty

Registered User
Dec 18, 2018
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And don't forget about the possibility of the Luongo cap recapture....

I don't think it's going to happen as at this stage if Luongo wants to hang them up he'll just get some sort of post-career corrective surgery and sit on the LTIR until the contract expires. But if he does retire it's going to get ugly.

They do need to move the dead weight out. I think Sutter and Gudbranson for sure. And then you need to really look at the lower paid guys and see who can be replaced with a league minimum guy to free up those 500k and $1 mil increments.

It's funny now that the team could possibly be on the rise, the constant overpays on every single contract they've signed is coming back to bite them. People will argue Bo and Tanev's contracts are good, and they are, but they were both at the high end of what the cohorts got.

Granlund getting an extra $500k after a massive drop in production, Sven getting $3.5 when he can't even play 2/3 of a season, Gudbranson, Stecher....making every negotiation easy to this stage is why they'll even have to think about a cap crunch, which is absolutely ludicrous as they still only have 4 or 5 good players. This isn't even mentioning deals to MDZ, Gagner, Eriksson etc.

For as positive as EP makes the outlook, it's hard to look past all these overpays and they're adding up, right at the time the team could potentially splash on an actual big fish in free agency, not the 4th line.
 

F A N

Registered User
Aug 12, 2005
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It's funny now that the team could possibly be on the rise, the constant overpays on every single contract they've signed is coming back to bite them. People will argue Bo and Tanev's contracts are good, and they are, but they were both at the high end of what the cohorts got.

"High end of what the cohorts got" means it wasn't an overpayment.

Granlund getting an extra $500k after a massive drop in production, Sven getting $3.5 when he can't even play 2/3 of a season, .

The Granlund raise was baffling. Sven's contract is actually ~$3.36M. It's a solid deal. In comparison, Bryan Rust got a 4 year deal at $3.5M.
 

LordBacon

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Looks like a great middle six guy, remind me of Higgins, average at everything with good two way play and a good wrist shot.
 

Billy Kvcmu

Registered User
Dec 5, 2014
27,122
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It's funny now that the team could possibly be on the rise, the constant overpays on every single contract they've signed is coming back to bite them. People will argue Bo and Tanev's contracts are good, and they are, but they were both at the high end of what the cohorts got.

Granlund getting an extra $500k after a massive drop in production, Sven getting $3.5 when he can't even play 2/3 of a season, Gudbranson, Stecher....making every negotiation easy to this stage is why they'll even have to think about a cap crunch, which is absolutely ludicrous as they still only have 4 or 5 good players. This isn't even mentioning deals to MDZ, Gagner, Eriksson etc.

For as positive as EP makes the outlook, it's hard to look past all these overpays and they're adding up, right at the time the team could potentially splash on an actual big fish in free agency, not the 4th line.
The cap is getting a big raise when Seattle comes in, the only bad contract that will remain when EP’s ELC ends is Eriksson.
For all the worries, our cap situation is actually okay
 

alternate

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It's funny now that the team could possibly be on the rise, the constant overpays on every single contract they've signed is coming back to bite them. People will argue Bo and Tanev's contracts are good, and they are, but they were both at the high end of what the cohorts got.

Granlund getting an extra $500k after a massive drop in production, Sven getting $3.5 when he can't even play 2/3 of a season, Gudbranson, Stecher....making every negotiation easy to this stage is why they'll even have to think about a cap crunch, which is absolutely ludicrous as they still only have 4 or 5 good players. This isn't even mentioning deals to MDZ, Gagner, Eriksson etc.

For as positive as EP makes the outlook, it's hard to look past all these overpays and they're adding up, right at the time the team could potentially splash on an actual big fish in free agency, not the 4th line.

There's more to it than just the AAV when the ink dries. For starters, where is the team on the competitive pendulum? Players are willing to sign less to play for a competitive team. Considering we've been going through a rebuild, and cost of living in Vancouver is high, there's not much "leverage" to be had when it comes to UFAs.

Take Gagner for example. Clearly a bad signing. But with that said, would you have rather had Boeser play with Gagner last season when Bo was out, or Gaunce or Granlund? Gagner, despite being a bad contract, at least brought some NHL skill to a team with a huge void in that department. Maybe that money could have been better spent elsewhere, but this assumes an equal or better player would have come to a team nearing rock bottom in the rebuild. Posters will say "just weaponize the cap space" but that doesn't happen all that much, and getting into bidding wars for the rare time it does pretty much defeats the purpose. So imo, considering that I don't expect good UFAs to cone here where we were a couple years ago, I'd rather overspend on skill willing to come here, than sit with extra cap s0ace and argue whether Gaunce or Granlund makes a better top 6 C.

With RFAs, clearly Benning is a "player friendly" GM. At this point, he sees no need to hold guys over a barrell to save a few points on relatively cheap contracts. I mean save $500k - $1m on all the RFA deals, and you still don't free up that much. I mean save a few bucks on Pouliot and Granlund's contract doesn't move the needle at all, especially when you are sitting with like $10m in cap space already.

I hope when we are in a situation where we are tight against the cap, then Bemning can be a bit tighter with the purse strings, but that has cost to it as well. Everyone considers contracts a strength of the Gillis era, and we saw Ehrhoff walk because of the tight purse strings, and only a Salo blown achilles kept Bieksa from being moved for pennies on the dollar. There's risk amd consequences from any cap strategy, so imo makes no sense to be complaining about it now when we are/were in a situation that demanded overpays to get even B or C grade UFAs, and cap space currently isn't even close to being an issue.

When we have to let a valuable piece walk due to dead cap space and overpaid plugs, let me know and I will get pissed off right alongside you.
 

Shareefruck

Registered User
Apr 2, 2005
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I have not been watching much at all this year and I gotta say, it's almost impossible to tell which of these assessments you can actually trust these days and come away with a rough idea of how a player is actually playing. I'm suspicious of everything now and constantly doing the Larry David squint whenever I read anything positive or negative. :laugh:
 

iceburg

Don't ask why
Aug 31, 2003
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He’s been good. Nothing earth shattering, but he makes things happen out there. Big body with good speed, hands and shot. Reminds me of 2012-2015 era Chris Higgins.
He's "the kinda guy you can win with"...versatility is one of his better assets. He doesn't look out of place on the 1st line for short periods or the 3rd line. A good complementary piece.
 

Intangibos

High-End Intangibos
Apr 5, 2010
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At least Leivo has the hustle that Goldobin lacks.

If Goldobin just cared a bit more, he can be so good.

I don't see lack of hustle in Goldobin, I just think he's somewhat clueless on the defensive side of the puck.

It seems to me like people equate poor defensive play as laziness. There are a lot of hard workers in the NHL who don't make it because playing good defense isn't as simple as showing some hustle.
 

Nucker101

Foundational Poster
Apr 2, 2013
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I don’t get the Higgins comparisons, wasn’t Higgins pretty solid defensively here? Meanwhile Leivo’s game away from the puck was why he was in Babcock’s doghouse.

Also, Higgins didn’t have the shot Leivo has, but Higgins was definitely the better skater.

The only similarities are that both are wingers and good at winning board battles.


I see more differences than similarities.
 

kanuck87

Registered User
Oct 12, 2008
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I don’t get the Higgins comparisons, wasn’t Higgins pretty solid defensively here? Meanwhile Leivo’s game away from the puck was why he was in Babcock’s doghouse.

Also, Higgins didn’t have the shot Leivo has, but Higgins was definitely the better skater.

The only similarities are that both are wingers and good at winning board battles.


I see more differences than similarities.

Higgins was the FAR better player, at both ends of the ice.
 
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F A N

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Aug 12, 2005
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You don't get it. They don't use any of their leverage.

You don't get it. There's very little leverage if you want to lock up your young stars long term. They already got Tanev to sign a 1 year deal with a promise to pay him if he has another good season which he did. Canucks fans consider Tanev a first pairing defenseman well before he signed his current contract. As for Horvat, teams don't tend to use the ball and chain with their best players. Did the Leafs use their leverage with Nylander? They did and that sure worked out well. The reports then was that Nylander was asking as high as $8M AAV. He signed for just under $7M AAV with a front-loaded contract and huge signing bonus coming to him next summer. You ask Leafs fans last summer and very few wanted to pay him over $6M AAV.

Fan expectations rarely match reality when it comes to long term contracts. Name some long-term contracts that the respective fan base consider to be an absolute steal that turned out as such (and I dont mean "could be down the road types). That rarely happens because there's always risk vs reward. If you thought Tanev was a first pairing defenseman and Horvat was a core player future captain, what do you think their agents value them as?
 

Cupless44

Registered User
Jun 25, 2014
7,154
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It's funny now that the team could possibly be on the rise, the constant overpays on every single contract they've signed is coming back to bite them. People will argue Bo and Tanev's contracts are good, and they are, but they were both at the high end of what the cohorts got.

Granlund getting an extra $500k after a massive drop in production, Sven getting $3.5 when he can't even play 2/3 of a season, Gudbranson, Stecher....making every negotiation easy to this stage is why they'll even have to think about a cap crunch, which is absolutely ludicrous as they still only have 4 or 5 good players. This isn't even mentioning deals to MDZ, Gagner, Eriksson etc.

For as positive as EP makes the outlook, it's hard to look past all these overpays and they're adding up, right at the time the team could potentially splash on an actual big fish in free agency, not the 4th line.

And another one for Edler coming up.
 

Cupless44

Registered User
Jun 25, 2014
7,154
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You don't get it. There's very little leverage if you want to lock up your young stars long term. They already got Tanev to sign a 1 year deal with a promise to pay him if he has another good season which he did. Canucks fans consider Tanev a first pairing defenseman well before he signed his current contract. As for Horvat, teams don't tend to use the ball and chain with their best players. Did the Leafs use their leverage with Nylander? They did and that sure worked out well. The reports then was that Nylander was asking as high as $8M AAV. He signed for just under $7M AAV with a front-loaded contract and huge signing bonus coming to him next summer. You ask Leafs fans last summer and very few wanted to pay him over $6M AAV.

Fan expectations rarely match reality when it comes to long term contracts. Name some long-term contracts that the respective fan base consider to be an absolute steal that turned out as such (and I dont mean "could be down the road types). That rarely happens because there's always risk vs reward. If you thought Tanev was a first pairing defenseman and Horvat was a core player future captain, what do you think their agents value them as?

Let see if they use any leverage with Edler, a player who has made it abundantly clear he doesn't want to play hockey anywhere else other than Vancouver.

I am guessing too much term as usual and not as team friendly as it should be.
 

Catamarca Livin

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Jul 29, 2010
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Tanev contract was excellent. They made him wait and used all the leverage they had. Granlund contract is fine as he had a 19 goal season on previous contract. Sbisa contract was the worst imo among many other bad ones.
 
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TruKnyte

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Jan 1, 2012
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I don’t get the Higgins comparisons, wasn’t Higgins pretty solid defensively here? Meanwhile Leivo’s game away from the puck was why he was in Babcock’s doghouse.

Also, Higgins didn’t have the shot Leivo has, but Higgins was definitely the better skater.

The only similarities are that both are wingers and good at winning board battles.


I see more differences than similarities.

I haven't seen the egregious defensive liabilities with Leivo that you have. I don't typically have concerns about his backcheck or puck pursuit during games.
 

Nucker101

Foundational Poster
Apr 2, 2013
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I haven't seen the egregious defensive liabilities with Leivo that you have. I don't typically have concerns about his backcheck or puck pursuit during games.
I haven’t see him look “bad” defensively but he isn’t a guy I feel comfortable with being matched up against a scoring line all game or on the PK

Meanwhile the 2011/2012 version of Higgins would fit in just fine as a winger on the Sutter or Beagle line in a shutdown role or as a PK’er on this team.
 

F A N

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Aug 12, 2005
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Let see if they use any leverage with Edler, a player who has made it abundantly clear he doesn't want to play hockey anywhere else other than Vancouver.

I am guessing too much term as usual and not as team friendly as it should be.

Is anyone expecting the Canucks to low ball Edler? Offer him a 2 year contract that pays him $6M next season and $4M the following year? People need to be realistic.
 

kanuck87

Registered User
Oct 12, 2008
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I haven’t see him look “bad” defensively but he isn’t a guy I feel comfortable with being matched up against a scoring line all game or on the PK

Meanwhile the 2011/2012 version of Higgins would fit in just fine as a winger on the Sutter or Beagle line in a shutdown role or as a PK’er on this team.

I loved Higgins when he was here. He was the definition of the Middle-6 winger. An elite 3rd liner who you would feel comfortable slotting into the top-6 for large stretches of time.
 

4Twenty

Registered User
Dec 18, 2018
9,987
11,831
There's more to it than just the AAV when the ink dries. For starters, where is the team on the competitive pendulum? Players are willing to sign less to play for a competitive team. Considering we've been going through a rebuild, and cost of living in Vancouver is high, there's not much "leverage" to be had when it comes to UFAs.

Take Gagner for example. Clearly a bad signing. But with that said, would you have rather had Boeser play with Gagner last season when Bo was out, or Gaunce or Granlund? Gagner, despite being a bad contract, at least brought some NHL skill to a team with a huge void in that department. Maybe that money could have been better spent elsewhere, but this assumes an equal or better player would have come to a team nearing rock bottom in the rebuild. Posters will say "just weaponize the cap space" but that doesn't happen all that much, and getting into bidding wars for the rare time it does pretty much defeats the purpose. So imo, considering that I don't expect good UFAs to cone here where we were a couple years ago, I'd rather overspend on skill willing to come here, than sit with extra cap s0ace and argue whether Gaunce or Granlund makes a better top 6 C.

With RFAs, clearly Benning is a "player friendly" GM. At this point, he sees no need to hold guys over a barrell to save a few points on relatively cheap contracts. I mean save $500k - $1m on all the RFA deals, and you still don't free up that much. I mean save a few bucks on Pouliot and Granlund's contract doesn't move the needle at all, especially when you are sitting with like $10m in cap space already.

I hope when we are in a situation where we are tight against the cap, then Bemning can be a bit tighter with the purse strings, but that has cost to it as well. Everyone considers contracts a strength of the Gillis era, and we saw Ehrhoff walk because of the tight purse strings, and only a Salo blown achilles kept Bieksa from being moved for pennies on the dollar. There's risk amd consequences from any cap strategy, so imo makes no sense to be complaining about it now when we are/were in a situation that demanded overpays to get even B or C grade UFAs, and cap space currently isn't even close to being an issue.

When we have to let a valuable piece walk due to dead cap space and overpaid plugs, let me know and I will get pissed off right alongside you.
Just because a team isn't competitive doesn't mean you should be willing to overpay. I can't reconcile that personally.

Gagner signed a 3 year deal less that two years after being waived to the AHL. Gagner on a one year deal, sure, you could make the case, but 3, just makes no sense. Why does it need to be Gagner vs Gaunce, they signed Vanek to a one year deal and he's probably the best free agent they've signed in 5 years. You can talk about rather overspend on skill willing to come here, and I agree but you need to set thresholds, especially if, as you say, this was nearing rock bottom of a rebuild. Overpay for one year if you have to, giving 3 years to Gagner who was basically a 4th liner with 1st PP utility is a bad move and the fact he's in the AHL the year after it was signed and still has a year left, it's probably not best to use him as an example.

You don't think saving money matters, I do. Clearly. I think overpaying at any time, especially of RFA's makes no sense. The man has no grasp of contract negotiation, leveraging RFA vs UFA, or anything. I don't want to sweep this under the rug, like you seem to. To each their own I guess.

They were over the cap last year. Boeser's bonuses had to be carried into this season. So a nearing rock bottom team was already in a situation where they were tight against the cap, with a godawful team was already limited in how they could attempt to improve the team. Why do you think Benning will all of a sudden just tighten the purse strings? Some media and other fans have mentioned the implications of the issue these overpays present: How or why would Edler or any free agent take less money than worse players. "Hey Alex, take about a million more than Erik Gudbranson out of the kindness of your heart even though you're playing at an extremely high level and he's playing himself out of the league". These deals set precedent.

I do not know why you felt the need to discuss those past contracts, but it reads like handwringing about the Sundin offer of 2 years, it didn't happen, so what's the problem. How do you know Bieksa was going to be sold for "pennies on the dollar"? I don't think resigning yourself to only be able to get B and C level free agents and that they need to be overpaid is wise. We just don't see eye to eye there, and if you really have to have them overpay even more on a 1 year deal so you don't have to commit to term.

The bolded line you finished with is an interesting comment. The issue isn't letting a valuable piece walk, it's about losing the opportunity to acquire the valuable piece to begin with. It's no wonder we don't agree, you're content to passively wait for the bad contracts to expire and accrue "valuable" pieces through the draft....I would rather be able to aggressively pursue making the team better.

Long story short, spend wisely always.
 

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