Confirmed Trade: [VAN/TBL] J.T. Miller for Marek Mazanec, 2019 3rd round pick, and 2020 conditional 1st round pick

[y2kcanucks]

Reported by who? The media knows nothing.

Elliott Friedman

Sure you can live in denial that the media knows nothing. That's your prerogative.

 

[garbageteam]

The negativity at first seemed a bit hyperbolic once you look into what was actually given up and where Vancouver might land in the next two years. Benning has such a long, embarrassing history of bad picks and transactions this didn't really register as even within his top 10 blunders, even at first blush when I read it.

Miller was expected (I think) by the GM to be a 20 goal 50 point player, a solid second liner. Vancouver was projected to be giving up a mid first rounder. I thought and still think that's fine if that's the transaction; slide the value of the player higher (in Miller's case, he's currently above ppg but I highly doubt that lasts the season) and you correspondingly can adjust the fair value of the pick to be a higher/earlier. First round picks outside of the top 10 are seriously overvalued on HF, it's like some expect first liners/top pairing D across the entire round.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Elliott Friedman

Sure you can live in denial that the media knows nothing. That's your prerogative.

When did he say this? He didn't say it in his radio appearance after the trade and as far as I can tell he never tweeted about it.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Elliott Friedman

Sure you can live in denial that the media knows nothing. That's your prerogative.

Hold on, I found it. Friedman actually says nearly the exact opposite of what you claimed he said. It's at 6:55 of this interview:

Elliotte Friedman on JT Miller: 'I see a guy that understands himself better' - Sportsnet.ca

I'll quote it directly:

"I don't know if anyone else was giving up a 1st rounder for JT Miller, but I will confess that Jim Benning has more information about this than I do."

 

[y2kcanucks]

Hold on, I found it. Friedman actually says nearly the exact opposite of what you claimed he said. It's at 6:55 of this interview:

Elliotte Friedman on JT Miller: 'I see a guy that understands himself better' - Sportsnet.ca

I'll quote it directly:

"I don't know if anyone else was giving up a 1st rounder for JT Miller, but I will confess that Jim Benning has more information about this than I do."

Yeah, that sounds like the exact opposite of me saying that it was reported no one else was willing to move a 1st round pick.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Yeah, that sounds like the exact opposite of me saying that it was reported no one else was willing to move a 1st round pick.

Are even psychologically capable of conceding your claim was incorrect? I honestly don't think you are.

 

[Lindgren]

What was reported is that Tampa set a price and Vancouver matched it.

Rumoured Myers price tag overshadows Canucks' pickup of Miller - Sportsnet.ca

The Tampa Bay Lightning had Miller and said it wanted first- and third-round draft picks for him. And the Canucks, rather than haggling for days or weeks, and possibly seeing the forward get traded elsewhere, agreed at the NHL draft on Saturday to the steep price.

Are even psychologically capable of conceding your claim was incorrect? I honestly don't think you are.

Y2K's claim wasn't spot on. Yours, saying his claim was the exact opposite of what was reported, was worse.

 

[bandwagonesque]

What was reported is that Tampa set a price and Vancouver matched it.

This has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

Y2K's claim wasn't spot on.

It was categorically untrue and you know it.

You guys can do this on the Canucks board -- it's normal at this point. People out here are going to wonder what you're doing and why you're attacking people saying relatively sensible things.

 

[Lindgren]

This has nothing to do with what we're talking about.



It was categorically untrue and you know it.

You guys can do this on the Canucks board -- it's normal at this point. People out here are going to wonder what you're doing and why you're attacking people saying relatively sensible things.

The Miller trade was being discussed, and what was reported on it was being discussed, so of course the Sportsnet story is of interest. Nothing about my post characterized it as a rebuttal; it's interesting information on the topic of how the trade was seen.

Y2K said it was reported that only the Canucks were willing to give up a first. He referenced Freidman. Friedman, it turns out, said he didn't know if anyone else was willing to give one up. The clear implication is that he thinks it a good possibility no one else made the offer. So Y2K's version was stronger than Friedman's, but not categorically incorrect. What was categorically incorrect was your contention that Y2K's claim was the opposite of what was actually said. But, as usual, while accusing others of dishonesty, you're guilty of it yourself, and you're also guilty of doing exactly what you accuse others of when you carry over your quasi-legalistic semantic quibbling and your weird agenda from the Canucks board to the main one.

You know you're wrong, and you're not psychologically capable of admitting it.

 

[EP to Kuzmenko]

It would be pretty hilarious if Benning only trades FA’s for picks the year that we’ve traded away a first to be competitive.

I think we have replacements in the AHL with Zack and Rafferty. I also don't see Stetcher or Leivo re-signed after the year is over. The J.T. Miller trade wasn't just about being more competitive. It was about improving the team to allow our young kids to grow with a stable top 6 player. He is doing a great job helping our kids improve on the ice, doing wonders for Brock. As long as the pick is not top 5, he is a major win for the team.

 

[stampedingviking]

The Miller trade was being discussed, and what was reported on it was being discussed, so of course the Sportsnet story is of interest. Nothing about my post characterized it as a rebuttal; it's interesting information on the topic of how the trade was seen.

Y2K said it was reported that only the Canucks were willing to give up a first. He referenced Freidman. Friedman, it turns out, said he didn't know if anyone else was willing to give one up. The clear implication is that he thinks it a good possibility no one else made the offer. So Y2K's version was stronger than Friedman's, but not categorically incorrect. What was categorically incorrect was your contention that Y2K's claim was the opposite of what was actually said. But, as usual, while accusing others of dishonesty, you're guilty of it yourself, and you're also guilty of doing exactly what you accuse others of when you carry over your quasi-legalistic semantic quibbling and your weird agenda from the Canucks board to the main one.

You know you're wrong, and you're not psychologically capable of admitting it.

Where the Hell do you get that from "I don't know"?

Y2K was absolutely wrong in stating that Friedman said noone else would pay the price.

 

[Lindgren]

Where the Hell do you get that from "I don't know"?

Y2K was absolutely wrong in stating that Friedman said noone else would pay the price.

When Freidman says "I don't know if anyone else was willing to offer a first-rounder" his tone makes it clear that he's expressing his skepticism. That's why he follows it up by saying maybe Benning has better information. The second comment only makes sense if we take the first as his expression of doubt about there having been such an offer. Have a listen to the clip and see if you disagree.

 

[Grantham]

anywhooooooo....

so looks like a win win, am i right

 

[4Twenty]

I think we have replacements in the AHL with Zack and Rafferty. I also don't see Stetcher or Leivo re-signed after the year is over. The J.T. Miller trade wasn't just about being more competitive. It was about improving the team to allow our young kids to grow with a stable top 6 player. He is doing a great job helping our kids improve on the ice, doing wonders for Brock. As long as the pick is not top 5, he is a major win for the team.

quoted for truth

 

[bandwagonesque]

When Freidman says "I don't know if anyone else was willing to offer a first-rounder" his tone makes it clear that he's expressing his skepticism. That's why he follows it up by saying maybe Benning has better information. The second comment only makes sense if we take the first as his expression of doubt about there having been such an offer. Have a listen to the clip and see if you disagree.

The post I responded to said Friedman had categorically reported that no other team had offered a first rounder. That isn't true. If someone you happen to disagree with posted a similar willful exaggeration you'd call them on it immediately. Because you do agree, you're pretending you don't consider the exaggeration important.

 

[Lindgren]

The post I responded to said Friedman had categorically reported that no other team had offered a first rounder. That isn't true. If someone you happen to disagree with posted a similar willful exaggeration you'd call them on it immediately. Because you do agree, you're pretending you don't consider the exaggeration important.

Y2K's post is a mild exaggeration, entirely understandable in recalling something from months previous. Friedman strongly implied that no offer of a first round pick was made.

The exaggeration is yours. You said his post was nearly the opposite of what Friedman said. That's obviously wrong.

None of my posts are what you characterize them as being. I don't call people out for exaggerating. Try to find an example. Once again, you're projecting, and you're lying.

Stop attributing your persistent dishonesty and your relentless petty quibbling to others. Own it.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Y2K's post is a mild exaggeration, entirely understandable in recalling something from months previous. Friedman strongly implied that no offer of a first round pick was made.

The exaggeration is yours. You said his post was nearly the opposite of what Friedman said. That's obviously wrong.

None of my posts are what you characterize them as being. I don't call people out for exaggerating. Try to find an example. Once again, you're projecting, and you're lying.

Stop attributing your persistent dishonesty and your relentless petty quibbling to others. Own it.

I don't know what to say anymore. Get a grip. It's a message board. I won't be responding any further.

 

[Lindgren]

I don't know what to say anymore. Get a grip. It's a message board. I won't be responding any further.

Because you don't like being on the receiving end of the kind of rhetoric you dispense routinely.

 

[DFC]

Yeah, that sounds like the exact opposite of me saying that it was reported no one else was willing to move a 1st round pick.

It kind of does. It's saying Friedman's not sure, and that Benning knows more about it.

Whatever the case, I think it's crazy to think Benning was just bidding against himself. Obviously he offered more than other teams--otherwise his offer wouldn't have won out. Other teams probably had prospects and 2nds on the table, and Benning likely needed to include the 1st in order to get the player. I sincerely doubt he blew all the other offers out of the water just for the hell of it. He offered what he had to in order to acquire the player.

 

[y2kcanucks]

It kind of does. It's saying Friedman's not sure, and that Benning knows more about it.

Whatever the case, I think it's crazy to think Benning was just bidding against himself. Obviously he offered more than other teams--otherwise his offer wouldn't have won out. Other teams probably had prospects and 2nds on the table, and Benning likely needed to include the 1st in order to get the player. I sincerely doubt he blew all the other offers out of the water just for the hell of it. He offered what he had to in order to acquire the player.

No, it really doesn't. The opposite of what I stated would be if Friedman actually said "other teams likely offered 1st round picks."

Why do you think it's crazy to think Benning was just bidding against himself? It certainly wouldn't be the first time that happened. Benning hemorrhages value in almost every trade he makes. And at this point I think other GM's know they're dealing with the village idiot when trading with Benning.

 

[DFC]

No, it really doesn't. The opposite of what I stated would be if Friedman actually said "other teams likely offered 1st round picks."

Why do you think it's crazy to think Benning was just bidding against himself? It certainly wouldn't be the first time that happened. Benning hemorrhages value in almost every trade he makes. And at this point I think other GM's know they're dealing with the village idiot when trading with Benning.

Because Miller is a good player and any team with a good scouting staff knows that. I sincerely doubt Benning was the only one interested.

He might well have been the only GM giving up a 1st. But another team could just as easily have had two 2nds on the table, or a 2nd and a prospect, or a number of other things.

 

[bandwagonesque]

No, it really doesn't. The opposite of what I stated would be if Friedman actually said "other teams likely offered 1st round picks."

Why do you think it's crazy to think Benning was just bidding against himself? It certainly wouldn't be the first time that happened. Benning hemorrhages value in almost every trade he makes. And at this point I think other GM's know they're dealing with the village idiot when trading with Benning.

You claimed it had been reported as fact by a specific journalist that no one else offered a 1st round pick, not that you believed it or thought it, then implied other people were stupid for thinking it may not have happened. Then it turned out it didn't happen. That's what people are taking issue with. If you'd said you believed it, or simply refrained from insulting people, no one would have complained.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Because Miller is a good player and any team with a good scouting staff knows that. I sincerely doubt Benning was the only one interested.

He might well have been the only GM giving up a 1st. But another team could just as easily have had two 2nds on the table, or a 2nd and a prospect, or a number of other things.

Miller being a good player is irrelevant to the topic of whether or not Benning would pay more than he had to.

You claimed it had been reported as fact by a specific journalist that no one else offered a 1st round pick, not that you believed it or thought it, then implied other people were stupid for thinking it may not have happened. Then it turned out it didn't happen. That's what people are taking issue with. If you'd said you believed it, or simply refrained from insulting people, no one would have complained.

People are taking issue with it? Uh no. YOU are the one claiming the opposite of what I stated was true, and you are wrong in doing so. I also have not insulted anyone, but keep trying.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Miller being a good player is irrelevant to the topic of whether or not Benning would pay more than he had to.



People are taking issue with it? Uh no. YOU are the one claiming the opposite of what I stated was true, and you are wrong in doing so. I also have not insulted anyone, but keep trying.

It's crazy sometimes to think that behind what you write, there's actually an adult human being who's probably fairly normal. I think a lot of people on the Canucks board have had the same thought. Anyway, I don't think there's much point in continuing this.

 

[Canadian Canuck]

Have you not read any of my posts?

The timing is that a lottery team, that missed the playoffs 4 straight seasons, and 5 times in 6 years, traded a 1st round pick just to become mediocre. Everyone and their dog can know whatever they want, improving the team DID NOT have to come at the expense of a future 1st round pick.

Like I said, the team has to be successful or it's all for nothing.

To the bold: I hate this line of thinking, say it turns out that it's 22nd overall, but they had the opportunity to draft the next David Pastrnak at that spot....is it still a steal? If the Canucks don't have any success in the 4 years of Miller, but that player or players taken at that pick and after becoming star players or even JT Miller level players, then you just wasted 4 years dressing up a bad team into a mediocre team and have less future talent.

Miller looks really good, but generally you see these moves when teams have already risen from bad to mediocre, you see them when mediocre is trying to push into good.

Miller is to help our young guys produce and get us out of mediocrity. It was worth the price. We’ll have him for a very long time. I’m fine with the timing because it wasn’t for an old veteran, it was a guy just entering his prime