Confirmed with Link: [VAN/MTL] Dale Weise for Raphael Diaz part III - the #FireTherrien edition

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MSLs absurd thighs

Formerly Tough Au Lit
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TSN gametracker indicates that the Habs are bleeding scoring chances in large part due to consistently being outshot. MT's system is to rely on Price posting unsustainable numbers.

The way MT has the Habs playing they'll be lucky to make the playoffs and if they do it'll be on the back of Carey Price. Reminiscent of Theodore's Vezina / MVP season in 2002. Hmmm. Who was the Habs' coach then?

This is so wrong that it's not even worth taking seriously. Theodore didn't have 3 or 4 goals to play with. He had 1 or 2, most of the time. And a d-core that was twice as bad as this one. I don't even think you watched games in this season if you are actually comparing Price's workload with Theodore's in this season.
 

Tuggy

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This is so wrong that it's not even worth taking seriously. Theodore didn't have 3 or 4 goals to play with. He had 1 or 2, most of the time. And a d-core that was twice as bad as this one. I don't even think you watched games in this season if you are actually comparing Price's workload with Theodore's in this season.

Yeah, that is a pretty stupid comment. This team is nowhere near as bad as that team. Theodore's season was one of the best seasons by a goaltender in a very long time. Price has obviously been very good this year but to even compare them is absurd.
 

Ohashi_Jouzu*

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Yet most of the good players of the Detroit Red Wings graduated right in the NHL without playing in the AHL or played 1 season in the AHL only. This is a myth that Detroit sends all of its young propects to play in the AHL for 5 years before graduating to the NHL.

Uh, don't know what's hard to understand. Detroit leaves a lot of Europeans in their pro leagues until they're ready, everyone else goes through the AHL until they're ready. There's no "5 year myth", and you can lean on "most of their good players" all you want. Fact remains that 5 of their current top 10 scorers spent "significant" time in the AHL until a spot opened up for them; so did the bulk of the guys who follow on the list (Helm, Miller, Sheahan, Kindl, Quincey, Ericsson, Cleary, etc). Some of them came from pro leagues in Europe in their 20s and still ended up spending time in Grand Rapids (most Wings' long term "property") before an NHL spot/opportunity opened up for them (Nyquist, Tatar, Andersson, etc).

Good rant for a 1st post though. :sarcasm:
 

uiCk

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This is so wrong that it's not even worth taking seriously. Theodore didn't have 3 or 4 goals to play with. He had 1 or 2, most of the time. And a d-core that was twice as bad as this one. I don't even think you watched games in this season if you are actually comparing Price's workload with Theodore's in this season.
You mean that 2001/2002 where Montreal scored 2.52 Goals per game at # 19th compared to this season where Montreal only scores 2.46 Goals per game at # 22nd in the league?
 

MSLs absurd thighs

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You mean that 2001/2002 where Montreal scored 2.52 Goals per game at # 19th compared to this season where Montreal only scores 2.46 Goals per game at # 22nd in the league?

Yeah, I'm talking about the season where our first centerman was Yannick Perreault, and our first pair of Ds was Brisebois with Quintal.

Those who compare both goalies' impact on the team didn't watch a single game in this season. Stop arguing about Price pulling a Theodore. It's not the case. .931 and 2.11 in this season was just absurd, and the quality of shots he faced was equally as ridiculous.

What's funny though, is that people will still bring in arguments based on statistics to cover the fact that, in the end, they just don't know what the hell they're talking about, since they probably weren't even fans back then.
 

uiCk

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Yeah, I'm talking about the season where our first centerman was Yannick Perreault, and our first pair of Ds was Brisebois with Quintal.

Those who compare both goalies' impact on the team didn't watch a single game in this season. Stop arguing about Price pulling a Theodore. It's not the case. .931 and 2.11 in this season was just absurd, and the quality of shots he faced was equally as ridiculous.

What's funny though, is that people will still bring in arguments based on statistics to cover the fact that, in the end, they just don't know what the hell they're talking about, since they probably weren't even fans back then.
What's funnier is you using WRONG stats to prove your point.
 

LaP

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Fact remains that 5 of their current top 10 scorers spent "significant" time in the AHL until a spot opened up for them;

Fact remains the Wings don't have a really good team right now ;)

Yes they have a lot of european players who graduated from pro leagues in europe. But most of them (the ones who were great) still graduated before 23.

My point is not that kids should not spend time in the AHL. My point is there's no reason to send a kid in the AHL until he is 25 just to prove a point and "break" him.

If the kid is ready at 21 or 22 his time is better spent in the NHL on a 3rd line than in the AHL. And even the Wings acknowledge that as lot of their past great players graduated at this age as utility players behind veterans.

Tinordi and Beaulieu will be 22 next year. No reason to keep them in the AHL if they are ready to play as 5th and 6th D men. Beaulieu looks ready to me. There's Pateryn too. He will be 24 next year and is having a good season in the AHL. I really hope Murray and Bouillon wont be back next year and think trading Diaz was inevitable.
 

Ohashi_Jouzu*

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My point is not that kids should not spend time in the AHL.

Well... that's just obviously nonsense.

My point is there's no reason to send a kid in the AHL until he is 25 just to prove a point and "break" him.

I guess my point would be that no one does that. Anyone still in the AHL at 25 either has a real logjam ahead of him, or is still developing as a player. There's no "point proving", but there's obviously "breaking in" to be done in some cases. Your opinion also kind of ignores the varying goals and expectations of NHL teams. Some believe themselves to be too competitive to sit through kids' learning curves, and some have nothing better to look forward to than next season. Inside that wide range of ambition/reality is an entire spectrum of strategies for trying to balance team fortune with asset management/development. There's just no 100% maximum success formula.
 

Price is Wright

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The Red Wings prospect system has been terribly overrated for years. Their success comes from the veteran core, not their draft core.

After Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Kronwall there's little to no success.
 

Ohashi_Jouzu*

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.931 and 2.11 in this season was just absurd, and the quality of shots he faced was equally as ridiculous.

It really was. Easily one of the best seasons by a goaltender ever. When you are called on to make the most saves in the league (and we saw the shots he faced night in/night out), and still end up with the best SV%, that's a good year. He was also 46 goals above replacement (that's a really, really big number... Price is at 16 with far less than half a season left), and the 17.4 goalie point shares he ends up with for that season rank 7th all-time. (list)
 

Jesse Alexander

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Yeah, that is a pretty stupid comment. This team is nowhere near as bad as that team.

You're right - the 2013-14 Habs are much better - in terms of talent. Which makes the fact that Therrien needs to ride Price's goaltending to squeak out wins even more damning.
 
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uiCk

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Yeah yeah... keep arguing with what you see on HockeyDB...

Well maybe you should use a few of these sites before you spew verbal diarrhea and random FALSE numbers to back up your arguments. BTW I'm not even arguing anything, except your misuse of numbers followed by taking a shot at "stats" while simultaneously using stats yourself (made up ones).
 

Ohashi_Jouzu*

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The Red Wings prospect system has been terribly overrated for years. Their success comes from the veteran core, not their draft core.

After Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Kronwall there's little to no success.

Saying that their highest level of success stems from their best players isn't exactly revolutionary. I think the impact of their depth is lost on the casual non-Red Wings fan around here though. They went from one of the healthier teams in '11/12, to one of the most injury-ravaged teams in the strike-shortened '12/13 season, and are one of the most injury-ravaged teams again, and yet they still find themselves in relatively the same spot in the standings this year as they did in '12/13 and '11/12 (although a different conference this year). The depth in their system has kept them afloat during some rough patches for some of their best players, and they ("fill-in" players) all play the "right brand of hockey" even if it's not garnering quite as many points in the standings. That's probably testament to the structure they're getting/have gotten in the AHL.
 

Jesse Alexander

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This is so wrong that it's not even worth taking seriously. Theodore didn't have 3 or 4 goals to play with. He had 1 or 2, most of the time. And a d-core that was twice as bad as this one. I don't even think you watched games in this season if you are actually comparing Price's workload with Theodore's in this season.

Please highlight where exactly in that post did I compare the workloads of Price and Theodore - if you want to be taken seriously.
 

Adriatic

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Feb 27, 2004
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The Red Wings prospect system has been terribly overrated for years. Their success comes from the veteran core, not their draft core.

After Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Kronwall there's little to no success.
I think their drafting is pretty good and better than most teams. Considering they haven't had a top 10 pick in 20 something years and consistently picking near the bottom they've still managed to pick some great players. Guys like Filppula and Franzen are 3rd rounders, Quincey taken in 4th round, Eriscsson was picked last in the 9th freakin' round, not to mention players like Hudler, Nyquist or Tatar who are all 2nd or 3rd rounders. If that's not strong drafting I don't know what is.
 

radicalcenter

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I have no clue what you guys are talking about but keep going, just for the epicness of making it to part 4.
 

Grant McCagg

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I suspect it's not a coincidence that the last few pages of this pointless thread are predominantly being carried on aimlessly by folks who are on my ignore list.
 

habitue*

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You're right - the 2013-14 Habs are much better. Which makes the fact that Therrien needs to ride Price's goaltending to squeak out wins even more damning.

So, that is why Most top teams achieve success. They all play their #1 goalie 90%of the time.
 

Smokey Thompson

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The Red Wings prospect system has been terribly overrated for years. Their success comes from the veteran core, not their draft core.

After Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Kronwall there's little to no success.

What rock have you been living under for the past 5 years?

Their success doesn't come from their draft core? Did they not draft and develop one of the best 3rd line centers on Helm? Did they not draft and develop top6 winger Abdelkader? Did they not draft and develop rookies Tatar and Nyquist? Did they not draft and develop starting goalie Howard? Did they not draft and develop defensemen Smith, Ericsson, Kindl? Did they not draft and develop Drew Miller and Riley Sheahan? How about Andersson and Jurco?

Without rookies Tatar and Nyquist, the Wings would be way out of the playoff hunt this season. They lost key players to injuries but had rookies in Grand Rapids ready to step up and fill the void.

Funny also that their overrated prospect system magically helped the Griffins win the Calder Cup last season.

Clueless poster is clueless.
 

MathMan

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This is so wrong that it's not even worth taking seriously. Theodore didn't have 3 or 4 goals to play with. He had 1 or 2, most of the time.

The 2001-2002 Habs scored 2.52 goals per game.
The 2013-2014 Habs score 2.46 goals per game.

Pretty similar, all in all, with 2013-2014 even offering a smidgeon less goal support.

And a d-core that was twice as bad as this one.

Personnel-wise that's true, but the quality of play is disturbingly similar. The Habs are wasting an awful lot of talent, playing like a lottery club 5-on-5 despite a decidedly non-lottery roster.

I don't even think you watched games in this season if you are actually comparing Price's workload with Theodore's in this season.

The 2001-2002 Habs allowed 31.7 shots per game.
The 2013-2014 Habs allow 30.8 shots per game.

So while Theodore's workload was less, I wouldn't call them completely uncomparable.

Having quoted the numbers, I will, however, offer the caveat that the league-averages change over a decade, especially in goaltending. I'd say that 2013-2014 is in fact better than 2001-2002 on the ice, but not nearly as much as they should be.

Doesn't change the crux though. Montreal is, currently, a very bad club propped up by goaltending. It's a refrain Hab fans are entirely too familiar with. And they certainly have more talent than their level of play suggests.
 
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