Confirmed with Link: [VAN/MTL] Dale Weise for Raphael Diaz part III - the #FireTherrien edition

[Price is Wright]

I'd have just rather seeing Tinordi staying up and working out his kinks but I guess that's not an option.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I'd have just rather seeing Tinordi staying up and working out his kinks but I guess that's not an option.

That's what I'd like to see as well.

 

[habaholic]

I was asked to speculate as to who I'd target and said so. I gave my reasoning why... Nobody said that he was going to get dealt dude. Cobourn was rumoured to be available and as I said, you never really know if a player is avaiable until they are dealt.

If you're going to cut into a conversation and make posts like this, read the posts first.

You asked me what kind of blueliner I would've gone after and who was available. I told you specifically - I don't know who was available - nobody does. You can't know unless you're a GM. What I can tell you is that trades get made all the time and when they happen the public finds out that a player (Eriksson for example) was available at the right price.

Any player is available at the right price btw. To answer your question as best I could I told you - Cobourn is a guy I would've targeted and I gave you the reasons why. And as I said... if he wasn't available (very real possibility) or if our scouts kiboshed him for whatever reason, then move on to another similar style player and see if you can get them.

But sorry, I don't buy for a second that we did this. We went after Briere hard and got him. Why? No idea. We already had a small soft center in DD so for the life of me I have no idea why we needed another one.

That's fine. I understand your point, it's just that we're evaluating the importance of Murray on the team and why he was signed and so on. I'm also simply stating that, sure, they could've addressed physicality on defense with the trade option (and I agree Coburn would've been a great option) but it would've been much more costly to do so in both cap space/money and assets. In a cap system, cost is a huge evaluation criteria/factor.

I appreciate the respectful dialogue btw.

 

[habaholic]

I'd have just rather seeing Tinordi staying up and working out his kinks but I guess that's not an option.

Good point, but personally, I'm just as happy with him working on his play in the AHL. Nothing wrong with that. Good organizations do it this way.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

That's fine. I understand your point, it's just that we're evaluating the importance of Murray on the team and why he was signed and so on. I'm also simply stating that, sure, they could've addressed physicality on defense with the trade option (and I agree Coburn would've been a great option) but it would've been much more costly to do so in both cap space/money and assets. In a cap system, cost is a huge evaluation criteria/factor.

I appreciate the respectful dialogue btw.

It might have cost us an asset but the cap space was there. We wasted that cap space anyway.

Let me ask you, if we could've gotten Cobourn cheap - say a 2nd rounder and we don't give them salary back - don't you think we'd have been in better shape? No Murray, no Briere... To me, that's the kind of move we should've been looking for.

Your statement that Holmgren is no fool is highly debatable btw. He's made some stupid moves - and he makes lots of trades. I don't know what Cobourn would've cost but I think he was available.

And I hate what we did this offseason. Just didn't make sense.

 

[habaholic]

It might have cost us an asset but the cap space was there. We wasted that cap space anyway.

Let me ask you, if we could've gotten Cobourn cheap - say a 2nd rounder and we don't give them salary back - don't you think we'd have been in better shape? No Murray, no Briere... To me, that's the kind of move we should've been looking for.

Your statement that Holmgren is no fool is highly debatable btw. He's made some stupid moves - and he makes lots of trades. I don't know what Cobourn would've cost but I think he was available.

And I hate what we did this offseason. Just didn't make sense.

If we could've got him for a 2nd? Sure! Where do I sign? I just don't think he would've been available for a 2nd, if he was, the Oilers would've jumped on that before us. His cap hit is very good at 4.5, no way they let him go for a 2nd...but that's just my opinion.

 

[Fazkovsky]

I want a part 4, Dale weise was that missing piece for becoming a contender (sar). A fourth line of weise,white and prust would be sick

 

[Jesse Alexander]

You think? Since you love stats so much, see how much PK time he gets on average.

Anyhow, you have your opinion and i have mine. Seeing as i have (had) a D core with Subban, Markov, Gorges, Emelin, Diaz/Beaulieu, I'd rather complement them with a guy like Murray than a guy like Gilbert. but that's just me....and MB. I must be a dumb as he is.

I like stats and so does Dave Tippett. And he's a smart guy:

"We had a player that was supposed to be a great, shut-down defenseman. He was supposedly the be-all, end-all of defensemen. But when you did a 10-game analysis of him, you found out he was defending all the time because he can’t move the puck.

"Then we had another guy, who supposedly couldn’t defend a lick. Well, he was defending only 20 percent of the time because he’s making good plays out of our end. He may not be the strongest defender, but he’s only doing it 20 percent of the time. So the equation works out better the other way. I ended up trading the other defenseman."

 

[habaholic]

I like stats and so does Dave Tippett. And he's a smart guy:

Yeah I know, you posted that already. A lot of smart guys in hockey.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

If we could've got him for a 2nd? Sure! Where do I sign? I just don't think he would've been available for a 2nd, if he was, the Oilers would've jumped on that before us. His cap hit is very good at 4.5, no way they let him go for a 2nd...but that's just my opinion.

Keep in mind though...

1. Cobourn was coming off a terrible season
2. Philly's blueline is the most expensive in the league and they were tight on the cap
3. We wouldn't be sending any salary back their way

It's basically a cap relief deal with a pick thrown in. If they wanted more, maybe we include an expendable prospect or something (maybe Diaz too if they wanted him.) I think we could've gotten something done if we tried. That's the power of having cap space.

And again... maybe it doesn't work with Philly. I'm just saying those are the kinds of deals we should've been looking at. Going after Murray, Parros and Briere was a total waste of time and cap space.

 

[habaholic]

Keep in mind though...

1. Cobourn was coming off a terrible season
2. Philly's blueline is the most expensive in the league and they were tight on the cap
3. We wouldn't be sending any salary back their way

It's basically a cap relief deal with a pick thrown in. If they wanted more, maybe we include an expendable prospect or something. I think we could've gotten something done if we tried. That's the power of having cap space.

Maybe. I just have a hard time believing it. Either way, in retrospect, would you give give either De La Rose or Fucale for Coburn?

After thinking about it. I don't know if I would give up that 2nd anymore. Tough one.

 

[Habnot]

Good point, but personally, I'm just as happy with him working on his play in the AHL. Nothing wrong with that. Good organizations do it this way.

Good organizations develop talent in the minors - all about winning in the NHL (model Wings)

Terrible organizations try to develop talent in the NHL (Oilers/Panthers)

MB's biggest contribution is to set this organizational standard. NHL is no place for development, very little practice time. If Tinordi was significantly better today that one of the 6 D's he would be here. Not talking potential - just effectiveness right now.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Maybe. I just have a hard time believing it. Either way, in retrospect, would you give give either De La Rose or Fucale for Coburn?

After thinking about it. I don't know if I would give up that 2nd anymore. Tough one.

Fucale or De La Rose? Absolutely not.

We'd be taking a risk on a guy coming off a bad season. A 2nd and maybe Diaz would make sense. Or maybe a guy who we're not going to develop anyway (Leblanc comes to mind.)

No way I'd include a top prospect. It's a cap saving deal for them, that's it.

 

[habaholic]

Fucale or De La Rose? Absolutely not.

We'd be taking a risk on a guy coming off a bad season. A 2nd and maybe Diaz would make sense. Or maybe a guy who we're not going to develop anyway (Leblanc comes to mind.)

No way I'd include a top prospect. It's a cap saving deal for them, that's it.

Just saying both those prospects were 2nd round picks last year...Maybe Lekohnen's spot but even he looks promising.

Tough call, although I admit, last year's draft looks rather deep.

 

[Hackett]

Good organizations develop talent in the minors - all about winning in the NHL (model Wings)

Terrible organizations try to develop talent in the NHL (Oilers/Panthers)

MB's biggest contribution is to set this organizational standard. NHL is no place for development, very little practice time. If Tinordi was significantly better today that one of the 6 D's he would be here. Not talking potential - just effectiveness right now.

Its all about development, whether its in the nhl, or otherwise. If i remember correctly, quebec had a lot of talent that went straight to the nhl and they seemed to do just fine. Even the current batch of avs have players who made the direct jump seem to be doing fine.

Did toews or Kane spend any time in the ahl for chicago before they helped turn that franchise around?

Im not calling Detroit's system wrong, but there are teams who have developed talent and enjoyed organizatiinal success by putting the young core right into the nhl too. I think the main difference is that detroit always had the luxury of attracting veterans in the lure of a cup run. Thats not a luxury that most teams had

IMO, if the kid is physically mature beyond his years, as well as mentally mature, and he fills a pressing need on the big club, I dont have an issue at all with at least giving him a 10 game stint, and re-valuate after that.

 

[Habnot]

Its all about development, whether its in the nhl, or otherwise. If i remember correctly, quebec had a lot of talent that went straight to the nhl and they seemed to do just fine. Even the current batch of avs have players who made the direct jump seem to be doing fine.

Did toews or Kane spend any time in the ahl for chicago before they helped turn that franchise around?

Im not calling Detroit's system wrong, but there are teams who have developed talent and enjoyed organizatiinal success by putting the young core right into the nhl too. I think the main difference is that detroit always had the luxury of attracting veterans in the lure of a cup run. Thats not a luxury that most teams had

IMO, if the kid is physically mature beyond his years, as well as mentally mature, and he fills a pressing need on the big club, I dont have an issue at all with at least giving him a 10 game stint, and re-valuate after that.

Your comparing apples to oranges...It's expected that players picked in the top 3-5 selections make the jump immediately.

Detroit hasn't had a top 10 pick since 1991....let that sink in for a while

 

[Beendair Donedat]

Detroit also had two of the greatest players that have ever played the game since 1991 as well... Not to mention got some pretty big hits with late round picks.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Just saying both those prospects were 2nd round picks last year...Maybe Lekohnen's spot but even he looks promising.

Tough call, although I admit, last year's draft looks rather deep.

Wasn't last year's 2nd I'm talking about. I'm talking about after that draft. Last year's draft was the deepest since '03.

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

I'd have just rather seeing Tinordi staying up and working out his kinks but I guess that's not an option.

I think either way would be fine but I still think Tinordi has offensive potential (thought that before his recent production) even if it's 30-40 and I think his offensive game would be best served in Hamilton.

It's been said a billion times that they can never stay down there too long. Especially when they're 6 foot 7. I bet he makes it next year full time and should be a lot more of a factor than he would be now.

Good organizations develop talent in the minors - all about winning in the NHL (model Wings)

Terrible organizations try to develop talent in the NHL (Oilers/Panthers)

MB's biggest contribution is to set this organizational standard. NHL is no place for development, very little practice time. If Tinordi was significantly better today that one of the 6 D's he would be here. Not talking potential - just effectiveness right now.

I think Murray's been a lot better so, for me, it makes the decision to keep Tinordi down there that much easier.

 

[Kimota]

Well, MT needs to change his system back to possession hockey because the Habs are bleeding pretty bad compared to last year:

Through 48 games in 2013-14 the Habs had 14 less GF and 12 more GA. That's a stunning -26 in just over half a season.

The thing is, his system is starting to work.

 

[Ezpz]

The thing is, his system is starting to work.

No it isn't. Price is the only reason Therrien has a job. We're consistently getting outshot and are on a run like Toronto had at the start of the season.

 

[hockeyfan2k11]

No it isn't. Price is the only reason Therrien has a job. We're consistently getting outshot and are on a run like Toronto had at the start of the season.

People don't know that Price IS the system

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

No it isn't. Price is the only reason Therrien has a job. We're consistently getting outshot and are on a run like Toronto had at the start of the season.

nah not in the last few games. Price has still been fantastic but the D has tightened up. we might be getting out shot but not badly out chanced. The D's doing a good job in minimizing real chances.

The offense is looking better and should improve also once Galchenyuk gets back.

I'm back and forth on MT. I don't think he's the direct link why we don't play good sometimes. He seems to be able to get us out of these slumps too. I think he's a lot better than JM who was way more stubborn.

He might take a little too long to make the proper adjustments but he usually comes around. I definitely wish he would be a little quicker in that regard.

We still don't have the forward group to be a real contender. The D corps is getting there.

If we had the Pens' players and we're playing like how we are THAN I'd be uber p@ssed. We don't exactly have the most talented team on paper. I think there are definitely better teams player wise that are doing worse.

Slowly we're going to see more talent dribble in up through Hamilton in the next few years and the team should undoubtedly be more talented. Unless there's a proven better alternative to MT than I think he should get a chance.

 

[Jesse Alexander]

nah not in the last few games. Price has still been fantastic but the D has tightened up. we might be getting out shot but not badly out chanced. The D's doing a good job in minimizing real chances.

TSN gametracker indicates that the Habs are bleeding scoring chances in large part due to consistently being outshot. MT's system is to rely on Price posting unsustainable numbers.

The way MT has the Habs playing they'll be lucky to make the playoffs and if they do it'll be on the back of Carey Price. Reminiscent of Theodore's Vezina / MVP season in 2002. Hmmm. Who was the Habs' coach then?

 

[LaP]

Good organizations develop talent in the minors - all about winning in the NHL (model Wings)

Yet most of the good players of the Detroit Red Wings graduated right in the NHL without playing in the AHL or played 1 season in the AHL only. This is a myth that Detroit sends all of its young propects to play in the AHL for 5 years before graduating to the NHL.

- Pavel Datsyuk did not play one single game in the AHL. He gradued in the NHL at 23 from the KHL. He learned to play in the NHL as an utility player.

- Zetterberg did not play one single game in the AHL. He graduated in the NHL at 22 from the SEL. He learned to play in the NHL as an utility player.

- Kronwall played 102 games in the AHL which is around 1 season and an half (the same amount of games Tinordi has played right now). He graduated in the NHL full time at 24 (he played 20 games the year before). He learned to play in the NHL behind Lidstrom, Schneider and Chelios.

- Lidstrom did not play one single game in the AHL. He graduated at 21 from the SEL and was good right away

- Yzerman did play play one single game in the AHL. Graduated at 18.

- Fedorov did not play in the AHL. Graduated at 20.

- Holmstrom played only 6 games in the AHL. Graduated from the SEL at 23.

- Filppula played 77 games in the AHL (less than Beaulieu and Tinordi). Graduated in the NHL at 22.

- Martin Lapointe played 75 games in the AHL. Graduated full time at 22.

- Darren McCarty played 73 games in the AHL. Graduated full time at 21.

The problem is when people want to prove at point using the Wings they use the average players. The one who took many/some years in the AHL before becoming good. It's true that the wings are more patient than other teams. They can wait for a Beauchemin or Conroy to progress in the AHL. But when a player is good enough at 21/22 and less the Wings bring him to the NHL to play on a 3rd line or higher if he is good enough.

The problem of Edmonton is not the kids. It's the almost complete lack of good veterans to help them. Skilled players like Hall and Eberle would not learn more in the AHL than they are right now.

IMO Beaulieu and Tinordi should be in the NHL next year if they are good enough to play as 5th and 6th D men. Tinordi will be 22 next year with over 100 games in the AHL. If he can't play in the NHL as a 6th D man than he will probably never be more than Hall Gill. Beaulieu will be 21(soon 22) next year with over 100 games in the AHL. Those guys should be ready to be utility players in the NHL behind veterans like Gorges and Markov and behind players in their "peak" like Emelin and Subban.