Confirmed with Link: [VAN/DET] Alex Biega for David Pope

[iceburg]

Guys who don't distinguish themselves as mid-level AHLers who then go on to be solid NHL players are incredibly few and far between.

Again - if Rafferty just blows the doors off his first 30 games in the AHL and looks like a guy who is ready to take the next step, I don't have an issue with waiving proven quality older depth. But you don't do one until the other happens.

And I guess I'm saying, if you have a reasonable expectation that some are close (unsure whether they are completely ready) it is imperative for their development to test them at the next level.
Seems to me we've figured out our difference of opinion.

 

[4Twenty]

And we can't sign another d man from the waiver wire if he makes more than the league minimum. Cap hell. Going to be interesting if they want to sign Tryamkin at the end of his season. Something like 4 yrs @ $4,25 might fit in just under the wire.

It would be so nice if Eriksson would just retire.

I would laugh hysterically if they signed Tryamkin to over $4m per season especially after the fear mongering of paying Hutton his $2.8m QO.

 

[tantalum]

And I guess I'm saying, if you have a reasonable expectation that some are close (maybe not quite there) it is imperative for their development to test them at the next level.
Seems to me we've figured out our difference of opinion.

That's always been the question...should there even be an expectation that, if a D-man or two go down in the next couple days, anyone on the farm can actually adequately fill in? Based on what I saw in the pre-season that answer is that absolutely no one should have that expectation.

Oh there is hope, don't get me wrong, but wait and see if hope turns into reality and then make the move. Games are worth the same now as later and if they are truly serious about playoffs (lol IMO) then they should protect the PROVEN depth now until the new depth actually pushes. It hasn't pushed yet. At least IMO. It's an assessment issue of where the organizational depth currently stands far more than a "we didn't get value!" problem. I think most of us realize Biega held little trade value. But if a RD goes down in practice today he adds a good chunk of value and safety to the team.

 

[iceburg]

That's always been the question...should there even be an expectation that, if a D-man or two go down in the next couple days, anyone on the farm can actually adequately fill in? Based on what I saw in the pre-season that answer is that absolutely no one should have that expectation.

Oh there is hope, don't get me wrong, but wait and see if hope turns into reality and then make the move. Games are worth the same now as later and if they are truly serious about playoffs (lol IMO) then they should protect the PROVEN depth now until the new depth actually pushes. It hasn't pushed yet. At least IMO. It's an assessment issue of where the organizational depth currently stands far more than a "we didn't get value!" problem. I think most of us realize Biega held little trade value. But if a RD goes down in practice today he adds a good chunk of value and safety to the team.

I understand the argument. I just think that, if the 7th or 8th D-man is the difference in making the playoffs or not, they have bigger problems. The benefit of developing the younger players is greater than the risk of losing a veteran who can fill in for short stints on the bottom pairing.

 

[MS]

I understand the argument. I just think that, if the 7th or 8th D-man is the difference in making the playoffs or not, they have bigger problems. The benefit of developing the younger players is greater than the risk of losing a veteran who can fill in for short stints on the bottom pairing.

You're listing 'difference in making the playoffs' like it's a huge thing.

Even the most optimistic people expect that this will be a bubble playoff team. If we have another injury crunch like we had last year (and every other year) the difference between slotting in a Biega and a Brisebois could be the critical 1-2 points that make a difference between making and missing. These are risks you don't take blindly.

 

[tantalum]

I understand the argument. I just think that, if the 7th or 8th D-man is the difference in making the playoffs or not, they have bigger problems. The benefit of developing the younger players is greater than the risk of losing a veteran who can fill in for short stints on the bottom pairing.

But the risk of not developing younger players currently doesn't exist. There are no young players that have demonstrated that they are at a point where their development is being hampered by only getting AHL time. Far from it. They all have significant room to grow in the AHL yet. Nor does having Biega on the roster even prevent them from playing in the NHL...carry two extra D and only one extra useless forward. If someone is truly deserving of a look then you still sit Biega when a d-man gets put on the LTIR. If they perform you move Biega. As said by MS (I think) it is all putting the horse before the cart. Which is a trend with this management group. They judge their acquisitions to be far better than they actually are.

 

[4Twenty]

I understand the argument. I just think that, if the 7th or 8th D-man is the difference in making the playoffs or not, they have bigger problems. The benefit of developing the younger players is greater than the risk of losing a veteran who can fill in for short stints on the bottom pairing.

I don't think you understand, that's why people keep responding.

Two guys still have to go down to get any of these "prospects" into the lineup.....the team knows that Biega can move up in a pinch. Like I said, if they hadn't signed a 32 year old #6 and Fantenberg this summer your argument might hold water, but it doesn't.

To develop those young players, like you're talking about, wouldn't they have to play? They're still not going to play until 2 dmen go down at the same time. And like people have said, it makes tons more sense to park the 31 year old in the presser than 23-25 year old Sautner/Brisebois/Rafferty.

I think where others also disagree is that you're calling Biega a veteran who can fill in for short stints....to me he's a bonafide bottom pairing guy, outproduced everyone but Edler per game last season, and should've been used as the #5 all season....heck, all they needed was 7 or 8 more points to get in...they might've actually had a shot if they hadn't type cast Biega and handed opportunity after opportunity to Gudbranson and Pouliot.

 

[Hit the post]

I don't think you understand, that's why people keep responding.

Two guys still have to go down to get any of these "prospects" into the lineup.....the team knows that Biega can move up in a pinch. Like I said, if they hadn't signed a 32 year old #6 and Fantenberg this summer your argument might hold water, but it doesn't.

To develop those young players, like you're talking about, wouldn't they have to play? They're still not going to play until 2 dmen go down at the same time. And like people have said, it makes tons more sense to park the 31 year old in the presser than 23-25 year old Sautner/Brisebois/Rafferty.

I think where others also disagree is that you're calling Biega a veteran who can fill in for short stints....to me he's a bonafide bottom pairing guy, outproduced everyone but Edler per game last season, and should've been used as the #5 all season....heck, all they needed was 7 or 8 more points to get in...they might've actually had a shot if they hadn't type cast Biega and handed opportunity after opportunity to Gudbranson and Pouliot.

And *again*, to say nothing about having that vet D on your AHL roster that isn't just any random ECHLer or guy with a pulse on a PTO. You aren't going to be throwing all mostly nonvets on your AHL blueline roster.

And *again*, I don't disagree that players like Biega aren't all that difficult to get at the waiver wire.

And *again*, even Jim Benning was able to get a better one *once* in the form of Luke Schenn.

And *again*, the problem is, that is pretty much the *only* time Jim Benning has been able to get such a player (Schenn) in 5 years.

 

[Bad Goalie]

I think you’re right that for some players there is a point at which you have to see what they can do, but I don’t think that there are any Comets’ defencemen in that position.

The question of when it is appropriate is probably a point of some disagreement. I don’t see how it makes any sense to apply the idea of clearing out space to see what someone can do unless:

-the player is already really good in the AHL, good enough to be considered potentially ready to be a regular at the NHL level, and

-the player has finished his minor league development.

The reasons for this are pretty simple. If the player hasn’t finished his minor league development you can let him finish in the AHL and you don’t yet need to clear space for him at a higher level.

If the player isn’t showing so well in the AHL that there’s reason to consider him a regular, then there is virtually no point in making room for him. There’s no need to clear space for a depth player. He’ll get a few chances through injury anyway, but you can pick up that level of player cheaply on waivers or as unwanted free agents every season. You don’t want to force someone into your lineup when he hasn’t given any indication that he really belongs there.

This is really different from a higher level of player who has given every indication of being ready. I don’t think anybody on the Comets’ defence has given any indication of presently being more than a fillin when necessary.

Let’s look at the Comets’ defencemen:

Olli Juolevi: Not finished developing and his defensive and physical play are poor even at the AHL level. People hope he’ll develop into a top-4 defenceman in the NHL but he’s not there. There’s no reason at this time to clear space for him.

Mitch Eliot-rookie professional, has just begun developing and hasn’t shown himself capable at the AHL level. Clearing NHL space for him at present would be silly.

Josh Teves-in a similar position to Eliot

Ashton Sautner-He’s 25 years old and turned into an AHL defenceman, but even at the AHL level he provides next to no offence and merely decent defence. He isn’t near being too good for the AHL and has shown absolutely nothing to make one think he’s more than depth at the NHL level. I don’t mind at all that Sautner is one of the guys they can use when desperate, but there’s no reason to make room for him to develop into the kind of depth that is available cheaply every year in free agency and on waivers. He just isn’t good enough to have to make room for him.

Guillaume Brisebois-22 years old but otherwise in much the same position as Sautner. Despite Benning and Johnson pumping his tires, he provides very little offence even at the AHL level and is no rock on defence either. At this stage there is no reason whatsoever to think he’s a capable NHL regular. If he’s going to get there he needs further development. He’s on his last elc season but will be a cheap RFA next season and imo he hasn’t shown nearly enough to deserve a regular look at the NHL level. Again, he’s, at best, depth at the present time. No reason to make room for him yet. Let him develop into what the organization hopes he can be, don’t force him into a slot he hasn’t shown himself ready for, nor send him to the NHL pressbox when you hope he’ll develop further.

Jalen Chatfield-was injured much of last season, poor at the AHL level when he was healthy and makes Sautner and Brisebois look like offensive stars by comparison. I presume nobody thinks there is any reason to make room for him at the NHL level.

Brogan Rafferty-Going by some reports, he might be the Canucks defensive prospect who is closest to being ready, but even though he’s 24 years old, he’s a raw rookie who still needs some adjustment to the pro level. Even if the organization feels he’ll come along quickly, he’s only played 3 professional games and certainly isn’t finished developing in Utica. If he develops as people hope I could see a time coming when room should be made for him but even for the most optimistic projections he can still learn for at least part of the season in Utica before there’s any likelihood that he’s knocking down the doors to the NHL. I wouldn’t dream of making room for him at this time, but the Canucks may want to review his progress part way through the season.

Just like it is bad planning to spend much money on bottom line, bottom pair and depth skaters, imo it is just as poor planning to make room for prospects that haven’t finished developing or who are unlikely to develop past the depth defence level. Use them if they’re the best depth you’ve got, slot them in when too many injuries hit, but they are easily replaced and you really don't want them in the lineup on a regular basis.

I don't believe in calling up youngsters for prolonged stays in the pressbox. For prolonged stays in the pressbox, you want a guy like ... Alex Biega. Cheap, dependable, accepting of his role and not good enough that another team will snap him up for it's roster unless the regulars are hurt.

Disclosure: I'm not normally a Comets watcher, so my opinions about the players come, almost entirely, from reading reports about them. Note I'm not in any way projecting what they can be in the future, but am making judgments about what they've demonstrated themselves to be at this stage of their development base on reports from other posters.

This post is spot on regarding the Comets D. I don't need to add a thing.

Oh, wait. Their best defensive D-man with a little offensive rushability is not even on a Vancouver contract and will sit out for all of these new guys, Blujus. A Stevie Y acquisition playing well in Syracuse when he burned his bridges with the Syracuse coach over playing/not playing with an injury and the coach exiled him to the ECHL the following season. Conacher with Cull's support rescued him on a PTO and lo and behold he was given an AHL contract and became part of the Comets top pairing with Sautner. The 2 were great together. Ashton never plays better than he does with Dylan.

This reminds me of Biega when he was the club's best defender and also on Utica Contract. Dylan doesn't have the feet or wheels that Alex does, but he is the defensive leader. Would be the best fit with Olli in my opinion. Like Biega, young players play best when paired with him.

 

[4Twenty]

And *again*, to say nothing about having that vet D on your AHL roster that isn't just any random ECHLer or guy with a pulse on a PTO. You aren't going to be throwing all mostly nonvets on your AHL blueline roster.

And *again*, I don't disagree that players like Biega aren't all that difficult to get at the waiver wire.

And *again*, even Jim Benning was able to get a better one *once* in the form of Luke Schenn.

And *again*, the problem is, that is pretty much the *only* time Jim Benning has been able to get such a player (Schenn) in 5 years.

Luke Schenn actually wasn't better by any metric, he just had name recognition value and size and facewashed a few guys who touched Quinn.

Like Luke Schenn has trended down since his ELC expired, Biega has gotten better and outproduced every single defensman this club dressed last season on a per game basis.

 

[Hit the post]

Luke Schenn actually wasn't better by any metric, he just had name recognition value and size and facewashed a few guys who touched Quinn.

Like Luke Schenn has trended down since his ELC expired, Biega has gotten better and outproduced every single defensman this club dressed last season on a per game basis.

I think he showed decent chemistry with Hughes (all the more reason to have kept him vs signing Benn to that contract). Still though, the point was, Jim Benning the former NHL defenseman, has extremely poor pro scouting (at least with respect to D) ability.

 

[4Twenty]

I think he showed decent chemistry with Hughes (all the more reason to have kept him vs signing Benn to that contract).

But the results were not good and Hughes played 5 games and as a tandem started 84% of their shifts together in the offensive zone with the 1st line and still put up bad metrics.

The Luke Schenn love-fest that went on here last year was a perfect storm of eye test and just being happy it wasn't Gudbranson.

 

[Hit the post]

But the results were not good and Hughes played 5 games and as a tandem started 84% of their shifts together in the offensive zone with the 1st line and still put up bad metrics.

The Luke Schenn love-fest that went on here last year was a perfect storm of eye test and just being happy it wasn't Gudbranson.

Hey, what can I say? I have pretty low standards.

 

[Scorvat]

But the results were not good and Hughes played 5 games and as a tandem started 84% of their shifts together in the offensive zone with the 1st line and still put up bad metrics.

The Luke Schenn love-fest that went on here last year was a perfect storm of eye test and just being happy it wasn't Gudbranson.

I mean it was also nice to see someone play with a pulse and battle level

 

[4Twenty]

I mean it was also nice to see someone play with a pulse and battle level

Sure, but I find that an ironic statement in this thread about trading away Alex Biega......there's a reason his nickname is bulldog.

 

[MS]

Yeah, I thought Schenn was decent and I liked what he brought but he was nowhere near as good as Biega.

 

[Bad Goalie]

That's always been the question...should there even be an expectation that, if a D-man or two go down in the next couple days, anyone on the farm can actually adequately fill in? Based on what I saw in the pre-season that answer is that absolutely no one should have that expectation.

Oh there is hope, don't get me wrong, but wait and see if hope turns into reality and then make the move. Games are worth the same now as later and if they are truly serious about playoffs (lol IMO) then they should protect the PROVEN depth now until the new depth actually pushes. It hasn't pushed yet. At least IMO. It's an assessment issue of where the organizational depth currently stands far more than a "we didn't get value!" problem. I think most of us realize Biega held little trade value. But if a RD goes down in practice today he adds a good chunk of value and safety to the team.

There is not one single player on the Comets who has even close to made an NHL push. There is not one defender who you go, "WOW!", when he plays. There have been veteran guys brought in here for a season that you said that about and they weren't able to maintain an NHL spot either. None of the guys here now even compare with them. Hell, they aren't even as good as Clendening ,who has played 90 NHL games with 7 different teams, 5 of them since he was with the Canucks. Teams are still taking a chance with him because of his skillsets, but all finally accept he can't skate at the NHL level. None of the Comets you are speaking of have his skillsets except for maybe Rafferty, because he can skate. He doesn't hit or exhibit the consistent hard point shot like Adam at the moment.

Might be a good idea to let this raw rookie work things out before he becomes Corrado rotting in the press box waiting for a turn on the ice. That's what veteran 7/8s do for your team. They sit patiently and wait while your top kids play every day in all situations. Hopefully this allows them to keep getting better every day so they can play when finally needed.

Trading away a proven commodity for guys you hope someday will be NHL quality, then forcing them into the lineup to see is asinine. Games a team scraping to become a playoff team don't run these kind of experiments.

 

[tradervik]

If the Benning regime had a solid player development track record, you could give the Canucks the benefit of the doubt on this deal. The Canucks appear to be looking to give their right handed AHL prospects (Rafferty, Eliot and Chatfield) lots of playing time and rather than have Biega rust away in the minors, sent him to an organization that will give him a chance to play. Unfortunately we have too many examples of bad player assessments and failed prospects to trust the Canucks have made a good decision. We'll know fairly soon how this plays out as the usual suspects keep us up-to-date on the Comets.

 

[F A N]

The next call-up option on the farm should be a guy with NHL experience who you can rely on to play some NHL minutes. Ideally, especially for a team like the Canucks, that's a prospect who is waiting for his opportunity to crack the NHL full time. But other than that, there are different ways to fill that role. Not many teams fill that role with a 31 year old Dman who is an NHL calibre Dman. For a team looking to make the playoffs with a thin margin of error there's certainly a case for having Biega in that role.

The Canucks do have a glut of "older" D "prospects" down on the farm. Sure there isn't that bluechip potential top 4 Dman waiting for his opportunity to crack the NHL full time, but at some point you got play guys like Brisebois and see what you have, otherwise, what's the point of spending the development time on these guys? That extends to players like Sautner who is at that point in his career where he's either a AHLer for life/play in Europe or he carves out a Taylor Fedun or even better a Biega type NHL career. Was Biega a Dman who you go "wow" when he plays when he was in the NHL? I don't think so.

 

[MS]

The next call-up option on the farm should be a guy with NHL experience who you can rely on to play some NHL minutes. Ideally, especially for a team like the Canucks, that's a prospect who is waiting for his opportunity to crack the NHL full time. But other than that, there are different ways to fill that role. Not many teams fill that role with a 31 year old Dman who is an NHL calibre Dman. For a team looking to make the playoffs with a thin margin of error there's certainly a case for having Biega in that role.

The Canucks do have a glut of "older" D "prospects" down on the farm. Sure there isn't that bluechip potential top 4 Dman waiting for his opportunity to crack the NHL full time, but at some point you got play guys like Brisebois and see what you have, otherwise, what's the point of spending the development time on these guys? That extends to players like Sautner who is at that point in his career where he's either a AHLer for life/play in Europe or he carves out a Taylor Fedun or even better a Biega type NHL career. Was Biega a Dman who you go "wow" when he plays when he was in the NHL? I don't think so.

The vast majority of drafted/signed prospects never see significant NHL time. That's just the way it is.

The point in spending time developing guys is getting the 1 guy in 10 who makes it. And the guys that don't allow you to fill up the numbers in Utica or maybe cover an emergency NHL callup at some point.

You don't 'have' to play guys just because you've developed them - you play them because they've earned it and can provide value to your team.

And we did give Brisebois games last year ... and he was way out of his depth in very soft minutes.

 

[Dr Good Vibes]

Hey Jim's embracing the Christmas spirit early, he's very generous.
Also like Oprah, "A gift for you, and you, and you!"

 

[timw33]

They judge their acquisitions to be far better than they actually are.

This is a very accurate summary of their entire tenure and a perfect example of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

 

[VanillaCoke]

Detroit sent kaski down today, so kept Biega on the big club..

 

[calnuck]

Such crappy management of this guy. Deserved to be on the roster for sure. Although I hate the trade I'm happy for him if it means he'll actually get the ice time he deserves. Just don't know why it didn't happen here.

 

[Iron Mike Sharpe]

Prediction: mid-season as injuries hit, Benning will move a pick to get a replacement for Biega, & it will be a worse player on a worse contract.