Raptors Discussion: v86: Raptors Discussion: NBA CHAMPIONS BABY!!!!!

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hockeywiz542

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Can the Raptors pull off a miracle on draft night with the 59th pick? - Sportsnet.ca
The Raptors held prospect workouts at their practice facility throughout the Finals as they look to gather as much intel as possible on the countless options they’ll have drafting so late.

There are potentially intriguing players expected to be available. Central Florida’s Tacko Fall, a seven-foot-seven centre, UCLA point guard Jaylen Hands, Michigan guard Jordan Poole, and West Virginia shot-blocking big man Sagaba Konate are among the names projected to be drafted near the end of the 2019 draft. NBAdraft.net projects Wake Forest swingman Jaylen Hoard to go 59th to the Raptors, but whomever the team selects will almost surely need to have a monster performance in training camp or flash enough potential to warrant a spot with the Raptors 905 in the G-League to have any sort of future with the franchise.

With all of the questions that now face the Raptors this off-season — whether or not Leonard will be in the fold next year being chief among them — who the team selects with the second-round pick may not be the highest on the food chain.

As the Raptors have shown, when it comes to roster-building there’s nowhere brimming with more opportunity than the draft.
 

The Nemesis

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I wanted Chriss the year we drafted Poeltl, but with guys like him and Bender, I really have a hard time seeing how guys who couldn't crack the rotation of absolutely terrible teams finding a role here where they can get the minutes required to develop. Maybe Nurse would be able to coach them up and get them productive, but I'm very skeptical.

As for Vince. I don't like the whitewashing of history with him and don't want to see him back or his number retired. As incompetent as Babcock was, Vince still quit the team in such an unprofessional way, I can't overlook that. He told the Sonics our play. I forgive him and won't boo him when he comes back or chant VC sucks, but I don't think he should be honored.

Raptors have a real banner now, and a team leader who will get his number put up (Lowry). This team finally has a legitimate history. No need to whitewash history to try to give us some sort o "rosy" history with Vince. I'd also take down those damn division championship banners while I'm at it.

Bender didn't crack the rotation because of Chriss in Phoenix, and then by the time Chriss was out, he was already stuck at the end of the bench. He really needs a fresh start to see if he's a breakout candidate or another Darko/Tskitishvili type flop. Plus the Raptors in a hypotheticla "Kawhi stays" scenario aren't in a position to get sexy free agents to round out their roster. They're going to be like those late-LeBron era Cavs, subsisting on G-league fringe projects, reclamation/redemption contracts, and ring-chasing over-the-hill veterans. So that means that if you want to maybe take a shot at finding someone who brings surplus value to the table, you're going to have to leverage something in free agency, be it untapped potential (Bender) or positive feels (Vince) or just plain old desperation to win (possibly Vince again, though given that he went to Atlanta last season he seems pretty OK with not being a ring-chaser)

Also I find it a little hypocritical that you're going to lambast Vince for being "unprofessional" while your stance comes across as needlessly bitter/petty with talk of how this would represent "whitewashing" history, because it wouldn't. Nobody pretends that what happened never happened. They simply move on. Vince has admitted he didn't handle things well. the fans had their period of anger and vitriol and have moved past it. It's all over and done with. Never mind the fact that the whole Sonics mess was never proven (and I mean actually proven. not "but if you look at it the only explanation I think makes sense is that he did it" type proven. That's the kind of nonsense that gets trotted out for moon landing or kennedy assassination conspiracies.)

besides, it's not like bringing him back is just a feel-good story. He legitimately does things that could help the team. He hits 3s, he's a wing, he can defend and he can rebound. He would basically be what Powell was supposed to be. If he can do it for a year to help prop the window open a little longer and be someone the team could legitimately work out a deal with, I wouldn't turn it down just so I can be vindictive about something that happened almost 15 years ago.

I took a little look at the free agents list and names I liked were:

Beverley ( rumours say he wants to go back home to Chicago)
Vince Carter for obvious reasons
Terrence Ross
Bojan Bogdanovic
Bender
Ed Davis

Didn't really look at the higher priced guys so these are guys that I think wouldn't be too much

Ross and Bogdanovic I would bet are too expensive for the Raptors. The one big ticket they'll have to hand out is the taxpayer mid-level exception, which I think is supposed to be a little under $6m a year. Both those guys earned $10m+ last season and there'll be enough of a market for them to not need to take a big pay cut. Davis, on the other hand, I think is a reasonable target as a bench big who could sign for MLE money and help with rebounding and interior work alongside someone like Gasol or Ibaka.

Presuming Kawhi and Gasol stay and Danny Green is kept on a decent contract, the roster at that point would be:

PG: Lowry, VanVleet
SG: Green, Powell
SF: Leonard, Anunoby
PF: Siakam
C: Gasol, Ibaka

OG would probably float between the 3 and 4 and with Powell's rotation spot shaky and Nurse inheriting Casey's love of the Lowry/VanVleet 2PG lineup, you have 9 spots filled out of a 12-man roster (and probable 10.5 man rotation) with only 3 real needs (in order of importance):

1) Another frontcourt 4-ish player to prevent any semblance of Gasol/Ibaka from needing to happen ever again.
2) A wing to be both a prod to Powell and cover for when OG gets time as a small-lineup-4
3) Another guard to be there to spell Lowry/VanVleet when they rack up too much time together.

For needs in terms of skillset, the biggest one is rebounding. The team was a disappointing middle of the pack 17th in RPG. Next up while they were 5th in FG% and 6th in 3P%, we can see in the playoffs how their 3 point shooting deserted them at times. So they could use some more of that. More defensive ability would always be nice, but if we're talking 2nd unit players here, and especially end-of-the-rotation players it's not a huge issue since the Raptors were one of the best defensive teams in the league.

Davis fills your rebounding void in a big way. He can play the 4 and he can be a small 5 if you need it. Carter fills you in on the wing and gives you more shooting range (his stats for last season would've been 5th on the team in attempts and 4th in % once you filter out the small-sample guys) Now you can look at finding some cheap pet project PG or reward Jordan Loyd for being a good soldier and one of the team's black aces last season (his job in the playoffs was essentially as a practice drone, mimicking the opposing PG.)

Bender is a bigger gamble and isn't a rebounder like Davis, but he provides you with a potential stretch 4 with playmaking ability who represents the upside pick of potentially being a more useful all-around player.

Beyond that I'm looking at less secure fits but names that might be interesting like Wayne Ellington, Tomas Satoransky, or Seth Curry. Mostly they provide shooting or back-court help but they could come cheap-ish.

Al-Farouq Aminu also strikes me as potentially interesting, but he's probably a bad fit and probably costs too much.
 

The Nemesis

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Apr 11, 2005
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fair warning that this thread is at its limit. In order to give people a chance to wrap up, I'm going to leave it up for another 20 minutes before locking and replacing it.

I would ask that this whole LeBron/Curry thing stop when this thread wraps up though. It's getting a bit out of hand and we have a general basketball forum for extended non-Raptors basketball discussion.
 
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LaPlante94

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Bender didn't crack the rotation because of Chriss in Phoenix, and then by the time Chriss was out, he was already stuck at the end of the bench. He really needs a fresh start to see if he's a breakout candidate or another Darko/Tskitishvili type flop. Plus the Raptors in a hypotheticla "Kawhi stays" scenario aren't in a position to get sexy free agents to round out their roster. They're going to be like those late-LeBron era Cavs, subsisting on G-league fringe projects, reclamation/redemption contracts, and ring-chasing over-the-hill veterans. So that means that if you want to maybe take a shot at finding someone who brings surplus value to the table, you're going to have to leverage something in free agency, be it untapped potential (Bender) or positive feels (Vince) or just plain old desperation to win (possibly Vince again, though given that he went to Atlanta last season he seems pretty OK with not being a ring-chaser)

Also I find it a little hypocritical that you're going to lambast Vince for being "unprofessional" while your stance comes across as needlessly bitter/petty with talk of how this would represent "whitewashing" history, because it wouldn't. Nobody pretends that what happened never happened. They simply move on. Vince has admitted he didn't handle things well. the fans had their period of anger and vitriol and have moved past it. It's all over and done with. Never mind the fact that the whole Sonics mess was never proven (and I mean actually proven. not "but if you look at it the only explanation I think makes sense is that he did it" type proven. That's the kind of nonsense that gets trotted out for moon landing or kennedy assassination conspiracies.)

besides, it's not like bringing him back is just a feel-good story. He legitimately does things that could help the team. He hits 3s, he's a wing, he can defend and he can rebound. He would basically be what Powell was supposed to be. If he can do it for a year to help prop the window open a little longer and be someone the team could legitimately work out a deal with, I wouldn't turn it down just so I can be vindictive about something that happened almost 15 years ago.



Ross and Bogdanovic I would bet are too expensive for the Raptors. The one big ticket they'll have to hand out is the taxpayer mid-level exception, which I think is supposed to be a little under $6m a year. Both those guys earned $10m+ last season and there'll be enough of a market for them to not need to take a big pay cut. Davis, on the other hand, I think is a reasonable target as a bench big who could sign for MLE money and help with rebounding and interior work alongside someone like Gasol or Ibaka.

Presuming Kawhi and Gasol stay and Danny Green is kept on a decent contract, the roster at that point would be:

PG: Lowry, VanVleet
SG: Green, Powell
SF: Leonard, Anunoby
PF: Siakam
C: Gasol, Ibaka

OG would probably float between the 3 and 4 and with Powell's rotation spot shaky and Nurse inheriting Casey's love of the Lowry/VanVleet 2PG lineup, you have 9 spots filled out of a 12-man roster (and probable 10.5 man rotation) with only 3 real needs (in order of importance):

1) Another frontcourt 4-ish player to prevent any semblance of Gasol/Ibaka from needing to happen ever again.
2) A wing to be both a prod to Powell and cover for when OG gets time as a small-lineup-4
3) Another guard to be there to spell Lowry/VanVleet when they rack up too much time together.

For needs in terms of skillset, the biggest one is rebounding. The team was a disappointing middle of the pack 17th in RPG. Next up while they were 5th in FG% and 6th in 3P%, we can see in the playoffs how their 3 point shooting deserted them at times. So they could use some more of that. More defensive ability would always be nice, but if we're talking 2nd unit players here, and especially end-of-the-rotation players it's not a huge issue since the Raptors were one of the best defensive teams in the league.

Davis fills your rebounding void in a big way. He can play the 4 and he can be a small 5 if you need it. Carter fills you in on the wing and gives you more shooting range (his stats for last season would've been 5th on the team in attempts and 4th in % once you filter out the small-sample guys) Now you can look at finding some cheap pet project PG or reward Jordan Loyd for being a good soldier and one of the team's black aces last season (his job in the playoffs was essentially as a practice drone, mimicking the opposing PG.)

Bender is a bigger gamble and isn't a rebounder like Davis, but he provides you with a potential stretch 4 with playmaking ability who represents the upside pick of potentially being a more useful all-around player.

Beyond that I'm looking at less secure fits but names that might be interesting like Wayne Ellington, Tomas Satoransky, or Seth Curry. Mostly they provide shooting or back-court help but they could come cheap-ish.

Al-Farouq Aminu also strikes me as potentially interesting, but he's probably a bad fit and probably costs too much.

Any free agents that weren't in the NBA last year or the past few years that played overseas? Do they keep lists of them anywhere?
 

93LEAFS

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Nov 7, 2009
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Bender didn't crack the rotation because of Chriss in Phoenix, and then by the time Chriss was out, he was already stuck at the end of the bench. He really needs a fresh start to see if he's a breakout candidate or another Darko/Tskitishvili type flop. Plus the Raptors in a hypotheticla "Kawhi stays" scenario aren't in a position to get sexy free agents to round out their roster. They're going to be like those late-LeBron era Cavs, subsisting on G-league fringe projects, reclamation/redemption contracts, and ring-chasing over-the-hill veterans. So that means that if you want to maybe take a shot at finding someone who brings surplus value to the table, you're going to have to leverage something in free agency, be it untapped potential (Bender) or positive feels (Vince) or just plain old desperation to win (possibly Vince again, though given that he went to Atlanta last season he seems pretty OK with not being a ring-chaser)

Also I find it a little hypocritical that you're going to lambast Vince for being "unprofessional" while your stance comes across as needlessly bitter/petty with talk of how this would represent "whitewashing" history, because it wouldn't. Nobody pretends that what happened never happened. They simply move on. Vince has admitted he didn't handle things well. the fans had their period of anger and vitriol and have moved past it. It's all over and done with. Never mind the fact that the whole Sonics mess was never proven (and I mean actually proven. not "but if you look at it the only explanation I think makes sense is that he did it" type proven. That's the kind of nonsense that gets trotted out for moon landing or kennedy assassination conspiracies.)

besides, it's not like bringing him back is just a feel-good story. He legitimately does things that could help the team. He hits 3s, he's a wing, he can defend and he can rebound. He would basically be what Powell was supposed to be. If he can do it for a year to help prop the window open a little longer and be someone the team could legitimately work out a deal with, I wouldn't turn it down just so I can be vindictive about something that happened almost 15 years ago.
I don't think Vince is a rotation player on this team. If his name wasn't Vince Carter, no one would want a 42-year-old rotation player on the Hawks. And, the Seattle thing was pretty much proven by the quotes from the Sonics players who have no reason to lie about it, and players were quoted on the record. That isn't a moon-landing or Kennedy assassination type conspiracy. I don't see why Ray Allen has a reason to lie about it, and he confirms his teammates heard it. So, if a valid news source like CBC goes to print with something like that, its ridiculous to compare it to fringe conspiracies.

Three members of the Sonics confirmed Carter tried to tip them off.

"I didn't hear it, but that's what those other guys were saying (after the game) " Allen told the News Tribune. "But all I said was, 'Why would he do that?' I don't know why he would do that."

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/basketball/did-carter-tip-off-sonics-on-play-selection-1.506817

I'm fine with not booing him. But, I don't think someone who openly quit on the team, and did things like that deserve to have their name in the rafters. That isn't what defines the greatness, and not something that should be honored.

The Raps have already done a lot of PR to clean up the image of Vince and blame a significant portion of it on Mitchell and Babcock, because they want to honor his history. I think now that we actually have real banners, there's no need to honor a guy who had one great season and a dunk contest.
 

Deebo

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Jan 28, 2005
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If it were up to me. Lowry would be only one to get his number retired. Add Kawhi to the list if he stays.

I understand those who would include DeRozan, but I would hope Vince or Bosh don't get his their numbers retired.
 

ECanuck

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Jan 7, 2010
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I mean it all seems pretty simple, from my perspective.

1) Sign in Toronto for 2 more seasons
2) Win another championship
3) Hit UFA when you can get your super-max in the summer of 2021
4) Go somewhere as a package with Giannis (preferably Toronto)

Let me be your agent Kawhi!

With your health issues you sign the super max dollars now. Already lost 30 and about to lose another 50 going to a different environment. But, but weather..............yeah ok. :laugh:
 

LaPlante94

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Apr 12, 2011
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I don't think Vince is a rotation player on this team. If his name wasn't Vince Carter, no one would want a 42-year-old rotation player on the Hawks. And, the Seattle thing was pretty much proven by the quotes from the Sonics players who have no reason to lie about it, and players were quoted on the record. That isn't a moon-landing or Kennedy assassination type conspiracy. I don't see why Ray Allen has a reason to lie about it, and he confirms his teammates heard it. So, if a valid news source like CBC goes to print with something like that, its ridiculous to compare it to fringe conspiracies.



https://www.cbc.ca/sports/basketball/did-carter-tip-off-sonics-on-play-selection-1.506817

I'm fine with not booing him. But, I don't think someone who openly quit on the team, and did things like that deserve to have their name in the rafters. That isn't what defines the greatness, and not something that should be honored.

The Raps have already done a lot of PR to clean up the image of Vince and blame a significant portion of it on Mitchell and Babcock, because they want to honor his history. I think now that we actually have real banners, there's no need to honor a guy who had one great season and a dunk contest.

We're really still made about things that happened almost 20 years ago? Do we really live in a world where you can't be forgiven for anything anymore no matter how long ago it was.

Also, how can you say he had only one good season here? Guy averaged around 24 PPG over 7 seasons here and you say something that stupid? He put this team on the map and did more for this franchise then anyone else except Lowry and Leonard.
 

93LEAFS

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We're really still made about things that happened almost 20 years ago? Do we really live in a world where you can't be forgiven for anything anymore no matter how long ago it was.

Also, how can you say he had only one good season here? Guy averaged around 24 PPG over 7 seasons here and you say something that stupid? He put this team on the map and did more for this franchise then anyone else except Lowry and Leonard.
The team was just waiting for an exciting player. The market was ripe. He benefitted from circumstance. I also don't really care if he put us on the map or not. Vince was able to capitalize. And, I said one great season. He had other good years, but he's primarily remembered for his one great season where he challenged AI for the MVP.

As I've said though, you can be forgiven. But, that doesn't mean that we should honor you with a retired number. Roger Clemens had two all-time great seasons with the Jays, but I still see 21 being issued.
 
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Eyedea

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With your health issues you sign the super max dollars now. Already lost 30 and about to lose another 50 going to a different environment. But, but weather..............yeah ok. :laugh:

He already left money on the table because he wanted out of an organization. I don't think leaving more money will stop him from wanting to go to a specific destination. He'll still be a max player, and he earns an additional 5-10m per year from his NB deal.
 

LaPlante94

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The team was just waiting for an exciting player. The market was ripe. He benefitted from circumstance. I also don't really care if he put us on the map or not. Vince was able to capitalize. And, I said one great season. He had other good years, but he's primarily remembered for his one great season where he challenged AI for the MVP.

As I've said though, you can be forgiven. But, that doesn't mean that we should honor you with a retired number. Roger Clemens had two all-time great seasons with the Jays, but I still see 21 being issued.

2 seasons compared to 7 seasons is a lot in professional sports. If Clemons won a championship in those 2 seasons then maybe he would've been honoured and the only players the Blue Jays have honoured were on those championchip teams mostly and the ones who weren't was George Bell who I'd assume was one of the first Blue Jays players to make noise for this club which was pretty new to the league (sound familiar) Carlose Delgado who was here for 12 seasons and set/has many Blue Jays hitting records and Roy Halladay.
 

ECanuck

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He already left money on the table because he wanted out of an organization. I don't think leaving more money will stop him from wanting to go to a specific destination. He'll still be a max player, and he earns north of 5m from his NB deal.

That was a toxic situation in San Antonio for him. It's difficult to drop another 50 million on the table in a good environment. You can't just be dropping cash left and right. Time waits for no man.
 

93LEAFS

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2 seasons compared to 7 seasons is a lot in professional sports. If Clemons won a championship in those 2 seasons then maybe he would've been honoured and the only players the Blue Jays have honoured were on those championchip teams mostly and the ones who weren't was George Bell who I'd assume was one of the first Blue Jays players to make noise for this club which was pretty new to the league (sound familiar) Carlose Delgado who was here for 12 seasons and set/has many Blue Jays hitting records and Roy Halladay.
The only players Jays have retired are Alomar (which was a condition of him going in as a Jay) and the retired Halladay after his death, probably assuming he was going in as a Jay.

Either way, I just don't think his number should ever be honored due to how he left, especially now since we don't have to create some history around this team. We won a real title, and have a real leader who will get his number up (Lowry). Vince can be as involved in the Raptors alumni stuff as he wants, and he won't get booed. But, I think number retirement wasn't earned. How he chose about orchastrating his exit is pratically unheard of, just look at the splits from that season on the Raptors and with the Nets (look at his FT numbers, he simply decided to stop trying to tank his vale). I forgive him and won't boo him, but I sure as hell don't want his number retired.
 
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Deebo

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That was a toxic situation in San Antonio for him. It's difficult to drop another 50 million on the table in a good environment. You can't just be dropping cash left and right. Time waits for no man.

When you already have enough money to set up your family for generations, you can do what ever you want.
 

ECanuck

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When you already have enough money to set up your family for generations, you can do what ever you want.

Never chase the hot girl that you want. Your wife usually drops unexpected. I'll leave it at that. Those who have experience you know what I'm talking about!:laugh:
 

Ignatius Reilly

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If it were up to me. Lowry would be only one to get his number retired. Add Kawhi to the list if he stays.

I understand those who would include DeRozan, but I would hope Vince or Bosh don't get his their numbers retired.

Pretty much the same as I feel. Kyle guaranteed, DD on the edge (I'd put him up), Vince and Bosh - uh..... just no.

Kawhi, not for 1 season, despite how good he and it were. You just can't do it for 1 season. So the question is - would 2 be enough? 3 and he's up there for sure (assuming we don't come in DFL for the next 2 or something crazy).
 

stickty111

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People really need to give Carter a break. He made a mistake, but a lot of the problem was management at the time.
I would bring him back and retire his jersey.
 

93LEAFS

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People really need to give Carter a break. He made a mistake, but a lot of the problem was management at the time.
I would bring him back and retire his jersey.
So, you'd be fine with Matthews stop trying to force a trade if he disagreed with Babcock and Dubas, and he wanted the Leafs to hire his idol Shane Doan? Because, that's essentially what Carter did.
 

LaPlante94

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Apr 12, 2011
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The only players Jays have retired are Alomar (which was a condition of him going in as a Jay) and the retired Halladay after his death, probably assuming he was going in as a Jay.

Either way, I just don't think his number should ever be honored due to how he left, especially now since we don't have to create some history around this team. We won a real title, and have a real leader who will get his number up (Lowry). Vince can be as involved in the Raptors alumni stuff as he wants, and he won't get booed. But, I think number retirement wasn't earned. How he chose about orchastrating his exit is pratically unheard of, just look at the splits from that season on the Raptors and with the Nets (look at his FT numbers, he simply decided to stop trying to tank his vale). I forgive him and won't boo him, but I sure as hell don't want his number retired.

Honouring a number/player and retiring their numbers are 2 different things. 10 years ago I would agree maybe he didn't deserve it, but he has made amends with the team and it's fanbase and deserves it now. When you see the number 15 being worn by a raptor not named Carter it just doesn't look right at all.
 

The Nemesis

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I don't think Vince is a rotation player on this team. If his name wasn't Vince Carter, no one would want a 42-year-old rotation player on the Hawks. And, the Seattle thing was pretty much proven by the quotes from the Sonics players who have no reason to lie about it, and players were quoted on the record. That isn't a moon-landing or Kennedy assassination type conspiracy. I don't see why Ray Allen has a reason to lie about it, and he confirms his teammates heard it. So, if a valid news source like CBC goes to print with something like that, its ridiculous to compare it to fringe conspiracies.



https://www.cbc.ca/sports/basketball/did-carter-tip-off-sonics-on-play-selection-1.506817

I'm fine with not booing him. But, I don't think someone who openly quit on the team, and did things like that deserve to have their name in the rafters. That isn't what defines the greatness, and not something that should be honored.

The Raps have already done a lot of PR to clean up the image of Vince and blame a significant portion of it on Mitchell and Babcock, because they want to honor his history. I think now that we actually have real banners, there's no need to honor a guy who had one great season and a dunk contest.

1 great season? :laugh:

Also that's not proof of the Sonics thing. Allen didn't lie. He said he heard it from other people. That's not proof, that's hearsay. And "a valid news source like CBC going to print with it" is meaningless because they printed it as "this is something that's being talked about without concrete evidence" not "THIS IS ACTUALLY HAPPENED, GUARANTEED AND IRREFUTABLY" Journalist outlets, even reputable ones, report on rumor and speculation all the time. It doens't make the rumors or stories any more valid, just like it doesn't make the outlet more or less reputable for reporting on it.

All that exists is that multiple anonymous players on the Sonics said they heard it happen. None of them put their names to it. The only named quotes come from people reacting to the rumor, from Vince who basically denied it, and from the organization who doesn't believe it actually happened. Nobody quoted on the record outright said "this happened". There's no video evidence that proves it happened. There's no affidavit from Carter saying he did it. Hell, he's copped to all the other stupid stuff he did at the end of his Raptors career, like not trying hard, or being petulant with the "I'm not dunking anymore" comments, but this has never come up again.

That's not proof. Not by a longshot.

Also I promised this thread was going to get locked up soon. I got distracted for a bit, but now it's time. New thread up in a minute.
 
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