Raptors Discussion: v70| It's off-season time (pre-season vs LAC from Hawaii: Sun Oct 1 @ 10pm ET/7pm PT | SN

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Vexed

Magic Marner
Feb 4, 2011
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My biggest complaint with Casey is his treatment of Derozan. He lets Derozan get away with playing no defense and forcing up stupid shots. Derozan pick and roll doesn't work because teams just blitz him and he can't pass out of double teams. Should be trying to spread the floor and getting him post-ups or having him come off screens for mid-range jumpers.

That's just not true. DD is top 5 in assists at his position. I believe his assists totals would be even higher if there were respectable outside shooters on the squad because he gets guys open looks out of the double.

Spreading the floor isn't just a term. You gotta have shooters that defences respect or they'll still collapse hard on the ball. Granted he isn't a good defender, most scoring guards aren't (its an energy conservation thing mostly) but he is a top 5 rebounder at his position.

DD is elite and I think that this team was a surprise but when it was built up, it was built up around Lowry primarily. I think that a team built around DD would look different and I bet that's going to be the direction we take. We have kids ready to start stepping in and I think we can afford to take a few steps back and still be a playoff team while we retool.
 

LaPlante94

Registered User
Apr 12, 2011
6,705
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Maybe do a sign and trade with Lowry and trade Val for some help and dump Carroll for whatever. We need good perimeter defenders and some 3 shooters. DD can be selfish but I'm just gonna keep telling myself that he's like that because he doesn't trust anyone else on the team that much. He was 18th in the league for PER at 24.09 which is pretty damn good. He's a top 15-20 player in this league but he's going through the same problem Bosh did when he was here. The supporting players just don't do anything to help him out.
 

Diamond Joe Quimby

A$AP Joffrey
Aug 14, 2010
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Maybe do a sign and trade with Lowry and trade Val for some help and dump Carroll for whatever. We need good perimeter defenders and some 3 shooters. DD can be selfish but I'm just gonna keep telling myself that he's like that because he doesn't trust anyone else on the team that much. He was 18th in the league for PER at 24.09 which is pretty damn good. He's a top 15-20 player in this league but he's going through the same problem Bosh did when he was here. The supporting players just don't do anything to help him out.

Had an assist % over 20 in back to back seasons. Which for a non-pg is just fine.

Also, let's not get too hyperbolic. Derozan had Kyle, and Kyle was the superior player every season they played together. You re-signed Derozan because he is younger and has prime years left, while Kyle does not. Bosh never had anything close to Kyle.
 

theaub

34-38-61-10-13-15
Nov 21, 2008
18,881
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Toronto
That's just not true. DD is top 5 in assists at his position. I believe his assists totals would be even higher if there were respectable outside shooters on the squad because he gets guys open looks out of the double.

Spreading the floor isn't just a term. You gotta have shooters that defences respect or they'll still collapse hard on the ball. Granted he isn't a good defender, most scoring guards aren't (its an energy conservation thing mostly) but he is a top 5 rebounder at his position.

DD is elite and I think that this team was a surprise but when it was built up, it was built up around Lowry primarily. I think that a team built around DD would look different and I bet that's going to be the direction we take. We have kids ready to start stepping in and I think we can afford to take a few steps back and still be a playoff team while we retool.

This

How many times in the Cleveland series did DeMar pass correctly out of the trap followed by

a) Ibaka/JV totally freezing the ball and letting the defense reset
b) Raps miss a wide open corner shot
 

Eyedea

The Legend Continues
Jan 29, 2012
27,407
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Toronto, Ontario
Had an assist % over 20 in back to back seasons. Which for a non-pg is just fine.

Also, let's not get too hyperbolic. Derozan had Kyle, and Kyle was the superior player every season they played together. You re-signed Derozan because he is younger and has prime years left, while Kyle does not. Bosh never had anything close to Kyle.

Calderon from 06-09 was icy. :yo:
 

Jozay

Registered User
Jul 9, 2012
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you cant do a culture reset with the same coach and players..

I think Casey is gone and he'll move some bodies out.
 

hockeywiz542

Registered User
May 26, 2008
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you cant do a culture reset with the same coach and players..

I think casey is gone and he'll move some bodies out.

the word "evaluation", or a variation of it, is used ad nauseam and after countless hours of jibber jabber we all go our separate ways with little more than speculation. Ujiri, in particular, is the master of saying a lot without actually saying much of anything at all.

However, while nothing definitive came out of his address on tuesday - less than 48 hours removed from toronto's disappointing elimination from the playoffs - you got the sense that there were more to his words this time around. They were candid, in some cases bold and seemed to foreshadow what should be a summer of change for the raptors.

"i take responsibility," ujiri said. "i blame myself first. I question myself, should i have made those trades? What should we have done? What could i have done better to put these guys in a better situation. And then as it goes down, we are going to hold everybody accountable because we need to. We need, after that performance, we need a culture reset here. We need to figure it out. Yes, there’s been some success, but at the end of the day we are trying to win a championship here. To me making the playoffs is nothing. That was back in the day. Now we have to figure out how we can win in the playoffs. That’s the goal."
casey, who was signed to an extension last summer, has two more years and roughly $12 million remaining on his contract. Undeniably, he's had a profound impact on the franchise since arriving in 2011. The raptors improved their record in each of his first five seasons at the helm. He's got more victories to his name than any other coach in team history and has led them to consecutive 50-win campaigns. But, as ujiri has made clear, good is no longer good enough. Is casey the guy that can help take them to the next level or is it time to bring in a new voice?

"we’ve done what we’ve done so many times and it hasn’t worked," ujiri said in a less than ringing endorsement of his head coach. "that’s the simple answer. We can only try that so much, and it just hasn’t worked. It’s easy to defend in my opinion when you play one-on-one, it’s predictable. We talked about it with coach and we feel we have to go in another direction."

"now it’s time to address it and see if we can move the ball more and figure out a way to pass the ball more to get better options. And use the players that we have. I don’t think this is matter of changing players or anything like that. How do we change a little bit of how we play and how we approach the game?"

ultimately, casey's job security is tied to whether or not ujiri feels he's adaptable enough to implement this shift in playing personality. Recent history isn't working in his favour. The raptors haven't ranked inside the nba's top-20 in assists since his first season, placing 29th and 30th the last two years.
 

hockeywiz542

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May 26, 2008
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ujiri used the words “reset†and “culture change†and said the way his team, coached by dwane casey, has played the last four years, isn’t good enough.

Nine times out of 10 that’s the language that either explains why a coach was fired or a new coach was hired.

if you didn’t listen carefully it would have been easy to get the impression that casey was being removed with the bathwater, but ujiri confirmed that casey will have the chance to redesign the style of play the raptors have made their own under his watch.

“yes there is commitment [to casey],†ujiri said. “but we are all going to question ourselves. We are all going to seriously question ourselves now, and figure out the best way to do it. Because coach casey has been a phenomenal part of our success here, you know, and in some ways we owe that to him [the opportunity to continue].

“but i’ve told him that we all have to be accountable. I haven’t slept, and i know he hasn’t slept too, because we’re thinking of ways that we can continue to make these things better, and make the right decisions.â€


if this sounds like giving the contractor who forgot to waterproof your basement the job to fix it, let’s just say it’s not the standard way of doing business in the nba, where coaches are often fired for lesser sins than failing to win playoff series.

and by giving casey his marching orders so plainly and publicly he’s not only putting casey in a tight spot – watch his team’s assist totals and three-point attempts become a game-by-game gauge of his progress next year – but ujiri has put his own judgement on the line too.

Should casey falter in implementing his new plan or should lowry or derozan or whoever chafe when it comes to implementing it, the easiest argument to make will be if ujiri wanted his team to play a different way and reset the culture he should have hired different coach.

That he expects to get different results from the same faces speaks to a high level or confidence or a high tolerance for risk, or maybe both.

But while ujiri spoke in may about not yet having the answers for the season just finished, that he was already prepared to commit to casey as an agent for change means he could be facing more questions if the new-look/old-look raptors struggle next season in november, december or any month other than june.
 

hockeywiz542

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May 26, 2008
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the biggest question surrounding the 76ers this week has to do with kyle lowry.

Should the sixers sign the three-time nba all-star point guard to a lucrative free-agent deal in july? Or should they bypass the 31-year-old and remain committed to ben simmons? Or should they go after another point guard to build around?

The answer is simple: Go hard after lowry.
sources have said the north philly native has been interested in playing for the sixers for some time. The speculation only heightened once bryan colangelo became the president of basketball operations in april 2016. As the raptors general manager, colangelo acquired lowry in a trade from the houston rockets on july 11, 2012. The two have remained good friends since then.

And sources have always said that the sixers planned to offer lowry a lucrative contract this summer.


for the last three seasons, lowry and three-time all-star shooting guard demar derozan have been one of the league's top guard tandems. the raptors re-signed derozan to a five-year, $139 million contract last summer. They can offer lowry a five-year, $200 million-plus deal. He can get a maximum of only four years and about $152 million by signing with another team.

financially, lowry would be better off re-signing with the raptors. Toronto general manager masai ujiri said last month he would attempt to re-sign the point guard.
 

Vexed

Magic Marner
Feb 4, 2011
5,648
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Barrie
I can't imagine we offer him the max so if they do, he can go. If they land him at the max then their window opens and shuts super fast. Sounds like a Colangelo move
 

trellaine201

Registered User
Feb 10, 2010
19,678
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Left coast
Lowry leaves money on the table if he signs with any other team? Would he do this or has their been players that take less than max when they were free agents?
 

Eyedea

The Legend Continues
Jan 29, 2012
27,407
3,234
Toronto, Ontario
Lowry leaves money on the table if he signs with any other team? Would he do this or has their been players that take less than max when they were free agents?

He only leaves money on the table if the Raptors offer more. In terms of players that took less, Wade and Bosh? Durant? Though the latter's signing was strategic (LeBron), seeing as how he'll make even more money this upcoming free agency.
 

likeabosski

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Jul 31, 2013
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Lowry leaves money on the table if he signs with any other team? Would he do this or has their been players that take less than max when they were free agents?
He only leaves money on the table if the Raptors offer him max money. The ball is in the Raptors' court. We can offer him max money +8% raise per year on a 5 year deal. Other teams can only offer max money +5% raise per year with a 4 year max contract.

Kyle Lowry averaged like 3.2 3P per game. He ranks 5th in 3P/Game, 21st in 3P/36mins, 16th in 3P/100pos in the NBA. We are relying on him a lot for our 3 point shooting threat. Because our 2/small ball 3 can't shoot 3s (DeMar DeRozan). And our 2nd 3-point shooter (Demarre Carroll) is ranked 79th in 3P/Game and 93rd in 3P/36mins. The team is 21st in the league in 3P/G. Really bad. If we let Kyle Lowry walk, things are going to look really ugly. But is he worth max money? Would we be better served letting him walk and trying to replace him with multiple cheaper players? The whole Moneyball thing is that while we can not replace Lowry individually, we can replace him with a starting PG who isn't as good but cheap. And we can strengthen the depth on this team with the extra cap space.
 
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tooncesmeow

Registered User
May 3, 2013
1,162
3
Melbourne, FL
Okay. I will totally admit my virginity when it comes to this sport, but this is something that kind of bugs me and I've said this in regards to hockey a lot.

While I respect the fact that you want to go get a championship (and you know. get paid) - are you seriously going to just leave a team that pretty much treats you like a star.. and come playoff time you turn into a complete ghost - Kyle Lowry? (I was reading in the paper this morning he might opt out, and go to the West. and i am going to assume by West he means San Antonio, Golden State, or somewhere else). but why not be here and help this team be great. Especially when (turned ankle aside) - 9x10 you're barely anywhere to be seen.

i do like what Diamond Joe said. So if they can try to rectify this - I hope they can, but it seems that Masai (and the new GM guy) really needs to crap or get off the pot. Decide to go for it and spend the money to do so - or to start selling assets and get some talent in the draft.

Problem is theres such a gap between who can contend and who cant' that theres a short list and if Lowry wants rings there's probably 2 or 3 teams he can realistically go to thats in his window. Realistically he's looking at teams with teams in the 4,5,6 list of contenders, or are a year or two from being very scary.

San Antonio has probably the only guy who could guard Lebron and Durant, and who has done it before. Plus a legit big man, and a good supporting cast.

Utah, if Hayward stays, is probably the best up and comer since Rudy can single handedly stop anyone driving, and a really good supporting cast again.

Milwaukee has the next great SF in Giannis, but they're probably a few years away, but a good team to hitch your wagon to.

And then Philadelphia, with all its young guns, is bound to break out soon.

So... probably San Antonio if Parker continues to decay.
 

likeabosski

Registered User
Jul 31, 2013
699
0
That's just not true. DD is top 5 in assists at his position. I believe his assists totals would be even higher if there were respectable outside shooters on the squad because he gets guys open looks out of the double.

Spreading the floor isn't just a term. You gotta have shooters that defences respect or they'll still collapse hard on the ball. Granted he isn't a good defender, most scoring guards aren't (its an energy conservation thing mostly) but he is a top 5 rebounder at his position.

DD is elite and I think that this team was a surprise but when it was built up, it was built up around Lowry primarily. I think that a team built around DD would look different and I bet that's going to be the direction we take. We have kids ready to start stepping in and I think we can afford to take a few steps back and still be a playoff team while we retool.
Yeah I feel that fans are too harsh in their assessment of DeRozan. Yeah his shooting percentages were down in the playoffs. His assists were down. Of course. When you have the Cavs and Bucks smothering you and the other Raptors aren't posing much of a threat... The team as a whole was playing horribly.

If you look at the top 5 Raptors in terms of minutes played: DeRozan, Ibaka, Lowry, Tucker (sixth man clocks more minutes than Carroll), Powell. Who was playing better than DeRozan? Lowry. That's it. Other than Lowry and DeRozan, the Raptors don't have a shooting threat that the opponents can respect. And Lowry was out for the last 2 games. If we had Lowry protecting home court, maybe we don't get swept.
 

ryno23

Registered User
Feb 5, 2010
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Lowry leaves money on the table if he signs with any other team? Would he do this or has their been players that take less than max when they were free agents?

If I was the Raps I would do a sign and trade with Philly. Lowry gets his max and Philly gets their player. Raps get something in return and also by doing the max it adds to Philly's cap going forward.

Take that money you save to go out and get a better fitting piece or better yet move Derozen to the Lakers who desperately want a winner back and would jump at getting Demar a local kid and maybe you can swing a Deangelo in return plus some pieces.
 

Diamond Joe Quimby

A$AP Joffrey
Aug 14, 2010
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If I was the Raps I would do a sign and trade with Philly. Lowry gets his max and Philly gets their player. Raps get something in return and also by doing the max it adds to Philly's cap going forward.

Take that money you save to go out and get a better fitting piece or better yet move Derozen to the Lakers who desperately want a winner back and would jump at getting Demar a local kid and maybe you can swing a Deangelo in return plus some pieces.

Your first paragraph, I agree with completely. Lowry sign and trade to Philly with Shawn Long the piece coming back.

You lost me in the second paragraph. The Lakers will likely draft Lonzo Ball, and trade D'angelo Russell (+some dead money) to Indiana for Paul George.
 

ryno23

Registered User
Feb 5, 2010
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Your first paragraph, I agree with completely. Lowry sign and trade to Philly with Shawn Long the piece coming back.

You lost me in the second paragraph. The Lakers will likely draft Lonzo Ball, and trade D'angelo Russell (+some dead money) to Indiana for Paul George.

Sorry diamond was typing it at work and hit the submit button and never got back to edit the post.

I wish the Raps would deal DeMar for the package the Lakers would give for George.

Then you got D'Angelo to start at guard plus it would give you a bunch of cap space correct? If so then hopefully find a suckered for Carroll and with the open cap space fill the roster with players that can fit the space and 3 game the NBA is now playing
 

Diamond Joe Quimby

A$AP Joffrey
Aug 14, 2010
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Washington, DC
Sorry diamond was typing it at work and hit the submit button and never got back to edit the post.

I wish the Raps would deal DeMar for the package the Lakers would give for George.

Then you got D'Angelo to start at guard plus it would give you a bunch of cap space correct? If so then hopefully find a suckered for Carroll and with the open cap space fill the roster with players that can fit the space and 3 game the NBA is now playing

Yeah it would give you space, but then you'd be stuck with D'Angelo, the space, and really nothing else of substance. And trust me when I say you don't want D'Angelo to be the piece you're building around unless you're tanking it out trying to draft a star in the top-3/5 in the next couple years.

I think you're kind of locked into Demar, who's contract is going to continue to look better after the next two summers of free agents, and you build around him to support his game (ala the Rockets with Harden, honestly the Spurs with Kawhi, and a little bit like Boston with Thomas..though that's not the best example).
 

Paladin2799

Registered User
Jul 15, 2009
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Yeah it would give you space, but then you'd be stuck with D'Angelo, the space, and really nothing else of substance. And trust me when I say you don't want D'Angelo to be the piece you're building around unless you're tanking it out trying to draft a star in the top-3/5 in the next couple years.

I think you're kind of locked into Demar, who's contract is going to continue to look better after the next two summers of free agents, and you build around him to support his game (ala the Rockets with Harden, honestly the Spurs with Kawhi, and a little bit like Boston with Thomas..though that's not the best example).

I think it all depends on what Lowry does, and what the offers are for Demar.

I think if you get a massive package for Demar after Lowry walks, you take a long and hard look at it.

Overall, What is likely is the raps rebuild around demar, get a servicable but not allstar point guard, and retool with the large amount of cap funds that they have available. The raptors have talent, they need to fix the holes in their lineup and find players appropriate to the key players they do have. I do think they like Ibaka and would resign him if it is appropriate $$ wise. I expect the raptors to be a good if not very good team next year, but they certainly will not challenge for the championship. I would hope they would try to target good young players that might be very good working in a tight system.
 
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Vexed

Magic Marner
Feb 4, 2011
5,648
85
Barrie
I think it all depends on what Lowry does, and what the offers are for Demar.

I think if you get a massive package for Demar after Lowry walks, you take a long and hard look at it.

Overall, What is likely is the raps rebuild around demar, get a servicable but not allstar point guard, and retool with the large amount of cap funds that they have available. The raptors have talent, they need to fix the holes in their lineup and find players appropriate to the key players they do have. I do think they like Ibaka and would resign him if it is appropriate $$ wise. I expect the raptors to be a good if not very good team next year, but they certainly will not challenge for the championship. I would hope they would try to target good young players that might be very good working in a tight system.

Letting Lowry walk doesn't really free up any cap space at all. Letting Lowry and Ibaka walk doesn't really free up much space either. At this point, its either all or nothing and since tanking and rebuilding in the NBA is way way less of an effective strategy than it is in say the NHL, I imagine they'll try to resign KL and ride this for as long as they can before ripping things apart. Even if you want to tear it all down now, it isn't easy to do that in today's cap. This whole idea of moving stars for amazing futures and prospects is rarely a thing. At best you get some cap dump trash and a pick that most often gets massively devalued due to the impact a star player has on the team that gets him.
 

Suntouchable13

Registered User
Dec 20, 2003
43,031
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Toronto, ON
Letting Lowry walk doesn't really free up any cap space at all. Letting Lowry and Ibaka walk doesn't really free up much space either. At this point, its either all or nothing and since tanking and rebuilding in the NBA is way way less of an effective strategy than it is in say the NHL, I imagine they'll try to resign KL and ride this for as long as they can before ripping things apart. Even if you want to tear it all down now, it isn't easy to do that in today's cap. This whole idea of moving stars for amazing futures and prospects is rarely a thing. At best you get some cap dump trash and a pick that most often gets massively devalued due to the impact a star player has on the team that gets him.

I still have hope that they can figure it out (re: how to beat LBJ). Masai did say that just making the playoffs is not good enough. Just keeping the status quo is not good enough. Masai even said that it won't be status quo. He was pissed at how things went, you could see it.
 

Mitchy

#HFOutcasts
Jul 12, 2012
14,477
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The Citadel
I really hope we can sign and trade Ibaka or something. Don't want him back on the team, except maybe if he plays as a C, but even then..
 
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