Raptors Discussion: v57|The long, short run to the end of the season (and playoffs)

[The Nemesis]

Continue.

Also I want to clarify my "Horford or bust" comment from the last thread. I don't mean the Raptors need to pick up Horford or they're doomed. I mean that if there's going to be a trade, really it's only worth picking up Horford at a reasonable price and not spending on the next tier of available PFs like Faried or Morris. If there's not a sensible Horford trade to be found, it's better to sit on those assets and wait for a more favorable deal to come along.

Especially since Horford is a pending FA and the Raps are not in a position to pay him a hefty raise and either retain DeRozan or find a talented (and expensive) replacement without having to gut the team's depth to free up more cash.

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[FreeBird]

Was it fair

To enter Lowry in the 3pt contest to embarrass him in front of his peers and the league.

 

[CharlieKelly]

Continue.

Also I want to clarify my "Horford or bust" comment from the last thread. I don't mean the Raptors need to pick up Horford or they're doomed. I mean that if there's going to be a trade, really it's only worth picking up Horford at a reasonable price and not spending on the next tier of available PFs like Faried or Morris. If there's not a sensible Horford trade to be found, it's better to sit on those assets and wait for a more favorable deal to come along.

Especially since Horford is a pending FA and the Raps are not in a position to pay him a hefty raise and either retain DeRozan or find a talented (and expensive) replacement without having to gut the team's depth to free up more cash.

Forgive my ignorance of the intricacies of the NBA salary cap, but if we were to trade for Horford, would we also acquire his Bird rights? I.e. would we be able to go over the cap (obviously having to pay the luxury tax) and give him and Demar both raises?

This is a purely mechanical question, I'm not saying it would necessarily be a good idea to do this.

 

[theaub]

Yes we would

I'd like Taj if you can push Chicago off the PP price and instead get them to accept something like Scola/Wright/Bennett/Raps '16 1st...Taj would be a massive upgrade on Scola on the first unit (once Carroll comes back).

 

[Clark4Ever]

Continue.

Also I want to clarify my "Horford or bust" comment from the last thread. I don't mean the Raptors need to pick up Horford or they're doomed. I mean that if there's going to be a trade, really it's only worth picking up Horford at a reasonable price and not spending on the next tier of available PFs like Faried or Morris. If there's not a sensible Horford trade to be found, it's better to sit on those assets and wait for a more favorable deal to come along.

Especially since Horford is a pending FA and the Raps are not in a position to pay him a hefty raise and either retain DeRozan or find a talented (and expensive) replacement without having to gut the team's depth to free up more cash.

Agreed.

 

[Makaveli]

Pau would be an amazing fit on this team, although it might be costly to obtain him. Same goes for Horford, he would be perfect but costly.

 

[Eyedea]

To enter Lowry in the 3pt contest to embarrass him in front of his peers and the league.

MJ has the lowest point total ever in a round.

 

[The Nemesis]

To enter Lowry in the 3pt contest to embarrass him in front of his peers and the league.

Lowry entered of his own volition. If the Raptors "forced" guys into the all-star competitions, don't you think we would've seen one of DeRozan or Ross in the dunk contest? DeRozan even said his teammates were pushing him to enter and he decided not to. The final decision rests with the player.

swing and a miss. You really should make these sorts of jabs less transparent if you want people to believe you're not doing it just to rile everyone up.

Forgive my ignorance of the intricacies of the NBA salary cap, but if we were to trade for Horford, would we also acquire his Bird rights? I.e. would we be able to go over the cap (obviously having to pay the luxury tax) and give him and Demar both raises?

This is a purely mechanical question, I'm not saying it would necessarily be a good idea to do this.

Technically, yes. Though with the caveat that the luxury tax threshold serves as a near substitute to a hard cap because almost no team wants to sink themselves into a luxury tax situation where you're paying somewhere between $2-4 of tax for every dollar you go over the luxury tax line (more if it's not the first time you've done it). I say almost nobody because seemingly the Brooklyn Nets thought it was a totally fine idea to just say "**** the luxury tax" and basically end up crippling their team for the foreseeable future as they pay $80m in taxes for a garbage team that sits in the league basement and yet manages to not own its own 1st round draft picks over the last few years because they had to have the aging Kevin Garnett and the broken remains of Gerald Wallace.

But realistically it's not tenable. For next year, the Raptors have about $70m tied up in 10 players. We don't have max contract amounts yet, but with the projected cap supposed to be easily $107m or more, those max deals are going to likely be close to $30m for players with a reasonable # of years of NBa experience. So adding back DeMar and Horford even at near-max is going to cost close to $60m, and is offset by only about 8-.8.5mil if the trade is centered around Patterson, Wright, filler like Johnson, and picks.

That would balloon the Raptors payroll to $130m almost, still needing to fill in the spots of the departed Johnson, Biyombo (who seems a safe bet to not pick up his player option), and possibly Scola too. So you would go from having pretty good frontcourt depth right now with JV, Biyombo, Patterson, Scola, Johnson, and Nogueira to having JV, Horford, Nogueira, and ????. And almost no money to fix it. And the team would be at least $3m over the tax threshold by this point, so paying another $6-9m in tax bills.

Horford would be awesome, but it would either be a super-expensive rental or a depth-destroying untenable future addition unless you're letting DeMar walk and replacing him super-cheap.

EDIT: And I wouldn't worry about not understanding all the cap issues. The NBA cap is crazy, crazy complex.

 

[The Nemesis]

MJ has the lowest point total ever in a round.

Psh, what did he ever accomplish. I remember him. He played in Washington, right? Everyone gushed about how great he was but I didn't see anything special.

 

[habamillions]

Continue.

Also I want to clarify my "Horford or bust" comment from the last thread. I don't mean the Raptors need to pick up Horford or they're doomed. I mean that if there's going to be a trade, really it's only worth picking up Horford at a reasonable price and not spending on the next tier of available PFs like Faried or Morris. If there's not a sensible Horford trade to be found, it's better to sit on those assets and wait for a more favorable deal to come along.

Especially since Horford is a pending FA and the Raps are not in a position to pay him a hefty raise and either retain DeRozan or find a talented (and expensive) replacement without having to gut the team's depth to free up more cash.

I agree 100%.

 

[DD03]

Nemesis, assuming we move Horford for the Knick's first and keep our first, you select a big if you can. Or you can move some money around at the draft to make room. Masai could make it work IMO.

 

[MJ65]

I should they go all out as this is a good chance to go deep in the playoffs

 

[Radiohead]

Found this on Reddit. Apparently you can trade Kobe Bryant for the entire Philadelphia 76ers' roster on ESPN Trade Machine.

 

[The Nemesis]

Nemesis, assuming we move Horford for the Knick's first and keep our first, you select a big if you can. Or you can move some money around at the draft to make room. Masai could make it work IMO.

Drafting in the late 20s isn't a great way to bank on getting a useful rotation player. I'd love someone like Sabonis the younger, who would be a PF. But there's no guarantee he or anyone else you get at that time would be ready for full time rotation minutes right away, without any seasoning.

And honestly, moving money around on this roster comes down to 3 real possibilities: Joseph @ $7.3m next year, Valanciunas @ $14m, or Ross @ $10m. And while most people would say Ross is the easy choice, it might not be too easy to find a taker for him unless he really shows his worth the rest of this season.

because as it stands, the Raptors have $26m tied up in Lowry and Carroll alone, plus then they'd need room for max Horford and potentially DeRozan. If we even play a little conservative and say that could be $27m apiece against a $107m cap, you've now sunk 3/4s of your cap space into 4 players. leaving you with less than $30m to go before the cap, and about $60m to the luxury tax to have to account for the remaining 8-10 roster spots you've got to fill.

If DeMar weren't seeking a max deal, it'd be more workable. If you could get him in at like $18-20m max, you could probably save enough to land and re-sign Horford off a trade of Patterson, Johnson, Wright and the Knicks/Nuggets 1st (which would work based on the Trade Machine). But given how hard DeMar's camp has been pushing the max deal, given the case they can make with the scarcity of 2-guards of his offensive prowess, being a 2x all-star, international play with team USA, and a statistical leader for this Raptors team, it would be pretty difficult to get him to leave that money on the table. No matter how much I trust Masai to pull a rabbit out of his hat.

 

[Radiohead]

because as it stands, the Raptors have $26m tied up in Lowry and Carroll alone, plus then they'd need room for max Horford and potentially DeRozan. If we even play a little conservative and say that could be $27m apiece against a $107m cap, you've now sunk 3/4s of your cap space into 4 players. leaving you with less than $30m to go before the cap, and about $60m to the luxury tax to have to account for the remaining 8-10 roster spots you've got to fill.

If DeMar weren't seeking a max deal, it'd be more workable. If you could get him in at like $18-20m max, you could probably save enough to land and re-sign Horford off a trade of Patterson, Johnson, Wright and the Knicks/Nuggets 1st (which would work based on the Trade Machine). But given how hard DeMar's camp has been pushing the max deal, given the case they can make with the scarcity of 2-guards of his offensive prowess, being a 2x all-star, international play with team USA, and a statistical leader for this Raptors team, it would be pretty difficult to get him to leave that money on the table. No matter how much I trust Masai to pull a rabbit out of his hat.

I'm still not too certain about the NBA exceptions but I think we'd acquire Horford's Bird rights in a trade. That would allow us to go way into luxury tax territory to re-sign him and DD if need be. Doubt that would happen though.

EDIT: I completely skipped over your earlier post addressing this.

 

[mikebel111*]

Tomorrow could be an interesting day for us. I am curious what Masai does. A bold move like Horford, or get some depth for the post season


I am getting the feeling Ross is someone that could be traded tomorrow. Not sure why I am getting that feeling.

 

[The Nemesis]

I'm still not too certain about the NBA exceptions but I think we'd acquire Horford's Bird rights in a trade. That would allow us to go way into luxury tax territory to re-sign him and DD if need be. Doubt that would happen though.

EDIT: I completely skipped over your earlier post addressing this.

Nobody goes way into the luxury tax. It's just way, way, way too expensive.

Except the Nets. But that's the NBA's biggest tire fire so they don't count.

 

[The Nemesis]

Tomorrow could be an interesting day for us. I am curious what Masai does. A bold move like Horford, or get some depth for the post season


I am getting the feeling Ross is someone that could be traded tomorrow. Not sure why I am getting that feeling.

Ross has a poison-pill contract because of his forthcoming extension. So his cap figure for trade purposes is going to be inflated beyond its current $3.5ish value. And you've got to find a team that believes his improvements over the last few weeks are real enough to be worth his $10m x 3 extension.

 

[mikebel111*]

Ross has a poison-pill contract because of his forthcoming extension. So his cap figure for trade purposes is going to be inflated beyond its current $3.5ish value. And you've got to find a team that believes his improvements over the last few weeks are real enough to be worth his $10m x 3 extension.

Yeah thats true. I dont know I was just saying in general that I feel Ross could be gone tomorrow

 

[hockeywiz542]

if ujiri does start moving pieces around, he can either go big – throwing in the bulk of his chips (most notably, a valuable lottery pick from either new york or denver this june) for a difference-maker -

think al horford or pau gasol, which would be risky and perhaps not overly prudent, but could push the team into the eastern conference finals or beyond.

Or, he could take a more moderate path, dealing a lesser pick and filler for someone like bruising suns forward p.j. Tucker.

Ujiri has said the raptors don’t expect to use each of the four first-round selections the club owns over the next two drafts, so a smaller move, such as one involving tucker, appears to be the most likely scenario. Ujiri and his staff have gone radio-silent, which isn’t a big surprise given their desire to maintain secrecy at all costs. But they’ve been working hard trying to figure out what deals are doable and, more importantly, which ones have the best chances of paying dividends.

The brass knows what it wants and needs, but one of the biggest challenges is finding the pieces to make a trade work under the nba’s rules. It’s much harder today to wheel and deal than it was in the past because expiring contracts aren’t as abundant and aren’t as valuable as they once were.

The raptors also don’t have the cap ballast that dotted previous rosters. James johnson and luis scola both have contracts expiring this summer worth $2.5 and $2.9 million us, respectively, and bismack biyombo is in the same range and will surely opt out in search of a far more lucrative deal, though he’s been a key piece of this team.

Patrick patterson has a year left at just over $6 million, but he has been incredibly valuable, despite a jump shot that has come and gone this season. Most deals returning an impact player would need patterson’s salary to make the money work, and besides stretching the floor when he is on (44.2% on three-pointers in january, 40% in five february contests after a 25.8% january), he is an underrated defender, a crucial cog in a toronto defensive unit that ranks in the nba’s top 10.

 

[hockeywiz542]

whether they're also without pau gasol will be determined before the 7 p.m. Tipoff. That's five hours after the league's trade deadline and gasol, according to league sources, is available for the right price.

As of late wednesday, that price hasn't budged — a rotation player who can make an immediate impact and a first-round pick, according to sources. The bulls have turned down at least two offers for gasol, one source said, so they won't trade him just to trade him.

Still, that management is weighing whether to deal a player who has made clear he'll exercise his player option and become an unrestricted free agent this summer underscores the precarious position the bulls are in. Do they try to reshape the roster now or bank on butler and mirotic returning to ride it out and address issues this offseason?

In the latter scenario, the bulls risk losing gasol for nothing, although they haven’t ruled out trying to re-sign him this summer. After all, with noah also set to be a free agent, the bulls don’t have a center signed for next season other than unproven cristiano felicio. And the bulls have more confidence in their ability to re-sign gasol than noah.

The bulls also have had talks centered on taj gibson and tony snell, league sources said. Yahoo sports reported a larger deal with the kings centered on snell and gasol for mclemore, kosta koufos and a lowering of the protection on a potential first-round pick the kings owe the bulls.

The bulls sit just $4.5 million above the luxury tax, but exiting it isn't a main focus of trade talks, a source said. That's because the bulls reset the clock on the more punitive repeater tax with the 2014 trade of luol deng. And with the salary cap and tax threshhold rising dramatically the next two seasons because of the influx of tv money, paying the repeater tax isn't likely.

conflicting stories exist whether the bulls or raptors initiated talks centered on a gibson for patrick patterson deal. However, the bulls did ask for the lesser of the raptors' two first-round picks in those talks, regardless who initiated them, a source said.

gibson said he talks to executive vice president john paxson and general manager gar forman "almost every other day" and doesn't have the feeling he'll be dealt.

 

[hockeywiz542]

the bulls have been lightly involved in trade talks involving taj gibson and more recently pau gasol, although a league source cautioned that the bulls aren’t “shopping†gasol, but that they’re open to trading him.

Gasol will opt-out of his contract this offseason to hit the free-agent market one last time for a long-term contract that will likely carry him into retirement.

as for gibson, the bulls have reportedly been asking for players and a first-round pick, which was confirmed by a couple front office executives around the league.

However, a source said of gibson, “he’s not going anywhere."

the bulls’ motivation appears to be shifting from win-now to avoiding the luxury tax and punitive repeater tax, as they were last in the luxury tax in 2012-13, being nearly $4 million over.

With their current salary around $88.5 million, it places them a little more than $4 million over the luxury tax apron of $84.7 million, which was set in the offseason. The bulls once had champagne dreams in the offseason and even into the season, but the recent tailspin has perhaps changed things and could not be as willing to be in the luxury tax for a team that could tumble out of the playoffs.

For now, though, it’s been all talk. For now.

teams have been reluctant to give up valuable, cost-controlled first-round picks as the cap is scheduled to rise exponentially this summer.

 

[Joey24]

To enter Lowry in the 3pt contest to embarrass him in front of his peers and the league.

To be fair he is a good three point shooter. I don't see it as an embarrassment at all, and I am sure as hell that nobody else saw it like that either.

 

[MJ65]

Any news guys? - is it Al Horford?

 

[Buckleys]

Any news guys? - is it Al Horford?

It seems that outside of the two trades on Tuesday, Horford is what is holding up trades. Until Atlanta decides what they are going to do (although I would assume teams will start exploring alternatives sooner than later, can't wait for Horford all day).

It's probably safe to assume the Raptors stay put. Most of the rumored guys available (Thad Young, Kenneth Faried, Markieff Morris) don't really make Toronto better.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/nba/myth-busting-are-raptors-trade-targets-actually-an-upgrade/

I would guess that it's Horford or bust for Toronto (and as people like Nem have posted, making that work would be a challenge), unless Masai has some unforseen move on someone we didn't know was available.