Utica Comets May Leave at the End of 2018/ 2019 Season

UticaHockey

Registered User
Feb 27, 2013
3,428
2,320
Utica, NY
Vancouver does own the team. But Esche and MV Gardens pay the Canucks an affiliation fee which they negotiate.

When the Canucks were negotiating on the original agreement, the Canucks wanted X amount of dollars. Esche and his group pushed the pencil and they actually sent an Email to the Canucks telling them that the numbers did not work and they would not be able to do the contract and the deal was off... Esche said it was the hardest letter he had ever written. The Canucks called the following morning and said they were coming to Utica anyways.....
And with 120 consecutive sellouts plus revenue from six new suites you can bet that Vancouver wants a bigger piece of the pie in an extension. What people outside of Utica don't realize is that Esche also manages the Aud which includes all of the concession and liquor income from three onsite bars and a new restaurant that is attached to the Aud and just opened over the summer. The profits from those enterprises have to far outweigh the Comets income. Plus he profits from every event held at the Aud including Utica College hockey and a new professional indoor soccer team that starts playing in December. Vancouver will want more of that cash flow.
 
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Centrum Hockey

Registered User
Aug 2, 2018
2,092
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I see more availability in an ECHL team then the AHL. That will be the challenge for Utica in finding a replacement "IF" Vancouver decides to relocate closer to home.

I heard the NHL locating their AHL clubs closer to home is not over. Talks down south suggest that Tampa could be looking for closer AHL market. Ironically Stockton supported the ECHL better then the Stockton Heat of the AHL so Calgary may be looking elsewhere. The availability of AHL teams, especially in northeast will only be as good as nearby NHL clubs who have a need for a place to locate the team, in other words a tight market.

The ECHL is doing a good job at strategically growing itself, and with roughly how many NHL clubs (few or so?) who do not currently have an ECHL affiliate, I think this gives a good matket like Utica an opportunity to maintain professional hockey. A solid ECHL club is really fun to watch, there isn't this dramatic drop off in quality. Guys getting more tired due to more on ice time, more run and gun style hockey, and slightly more physicality might appeal to many hockey fans in traditional old time markets like Utica. Utica, Glens Falls, Portland, and Worcester all would make a nice old school division in the ECHL lol.
The two markets that won a Calder cup have not reacted well to the echl for the most part Manchester Monarchs [ECHL] yearly attendance at hockeydb.com Norfolk Admirals [ECHL] yearly attendance at hockeydb.com
 

No Fun Shogun

34-38-61-10-13-15
May 1, 2011
56,238
13,021
Illinois
It wouldn't surprise me at all. The trend for Pacific teams has been to move teams to the West, so keeping their primary farm team all the way in Utica really hasn't made too much sense with that economic model in mind.
 

Tommy Hawk

Registered User
May 27, 2006
4,223
104
Vancouver does own the team. But Esche and MV Gardens pay the Canucks an affiliation fee which they negotiate.

When the Canucks were negotiating on the original agreement, the Canucks wanted X amount of dollars. Esche and his group pushed the pencil and they actually sent an Email to the Canucks telling them that the numbers did not work and they would not be able to do the contract and the deal was off... Esche said it was the hardest letter he had ever written. The Canucks called the following morning and said they were coming to Utica anyways.....

Esche is a management group, not an ownership group, and as such their desire is to have an AHL team in Utica.

They have done a great in Utica and a bigger arena would help them to lure another franchise if Vancouver does leave.
 

royals119

Registered User
Jun 12, 2006
1,457
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West Lawn, PA
Are you sure proximity matters to the nhl teams LA and San Jose admitted their prospects spend far more time in hotels and traveling Now then they did in New England

it would not make any sense for the Canucks to move until the Seattle team figures out their AHL location.

It isn't just the fact that the players can get to the NHL city more quickly when they are needed urgently. Part of the decision to move the AHL teams closer was the salary cap impact. Things may have changed since, but at the time the first group of teams moved, a player being called up to the NHL was added to the NHL roster for salary cap purposes when the call was made, not when he arrived. This meant for LA that the player was counting on the cap for at least a full day, if not two, while travel arrangements were made, and while the player was en route. For Philadelphia at that time, the player walked across the parking lot and joined the big club immediately. I'm not 100% sure if the same was true for the return trip, but I believe it was - the player was getting his NHL salary for the travel day going down. It might not seem like a big deal, but over the course of a season it adds up to a significant impact on the salary cap, if the team has a lot of player movement. So it would make sense for the Canucks to move their AHL team closer now, if all the cared about was getting some salary cap flexibility. Obviously other things factor into the decision, and at least for now they balance out in favor of staying in Utica.
 

LadyStanley

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Sep 22, 2004
106,216
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Sin City
If I team wanted to play in SF (Cow Palace SSF or in new Warriors' arena), there's the problem that the city is really Barracuda territory for one.

A team would likely have to invest ~$300k to re-renovate Cow Palace to make it somewhat viable to play hockey.

Chase Center does not list an ice plant as part of its features (from skimming Wikipedia and arena website). So, team would have to invest in (portable?) ice plant and be subject to the whims of the NBA schedule makers.

Probably way cheaper to find another venue to play in.

Not sure that Sacramento Kings' Golden Center would be any improvement. Really too close to Stockton.
 

LadyStanley

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Sep 22, 2004
106,216
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Distances kinda calculated as arena-to-arena

San Jose Sharks/Barracuda and Winnipeg Jets/Manitoba Moose = 0 miles
Toronto Maple Leafs/Marlies = 2.5 miles
Montreal Canadians/Laval Rocket = 15 miles

The above could definitely induce folks to live in one place between teams.

Los Angeles Kings/Ontario Reign = 45 miles (but up to 90 minutes away)
Colorado Avalanche/Colorado Eagles = 50 miles (but 60+ minutes)
Boston Bruins/Providence Bruins = 51 miles (but easily 60+ minutes)
Philadelphia Flyers/Leigh Valley Phantoms = 68 miles
New York Islanders/Bridgeport Soundtigers = ~70 miles
Buffalo Sabres/Rochester Americans = 76 miles
Chicago Blackhawks/Rockford Hogs = 89 miles
Anaheim Ducks/San Diego Gulls = 90 miles

Now we're up to more in the range of "easy call up", but not necessarily conducive to sleeping in your own bed range.

New York Rangers/Hartford Wolf Pack = 120 miles
Ottawa Senators/Bellville Senators = 127 miles
Arizona Coyotes/Tuscon Roadrunners = 131 miles
Washington Capitals/Hershey Bears = 134 miles
Columbus Blue Jackets/Cleveland Monsters = 144 miles
Detroit/Grand Rapids = 158 miles
Carolina/Charlotte = 163 miles
New Jersey/Binghampton = 168 miles
Dallas/Texas = 182

2-3 hours travel time, not counting traffic or weather.

Minnesota/Iowa = 246
Pittsburgh/WBS = 270

Long day of travel by car. Flying faster.

Nashville/Milwaukee = 567
St Louis/San Antonio = 900
Tampa Bay/Syracuse = 1268
Calgary/Stockton = 1294
Florida/Springfield = 1391
Edmonton/Bakersfield = 1742
Vegas/Chicago = 1758
Vancouver/Utica = 2903

The last are gotta-fly-crazy-to-drive up to full-day-of-travel.
 

Tommy Hawk

Registered User
May 27, 2006
4,223
104
It isn't just the fact that the players can get to the NHL city more quickly when they are needed urgently. Part of the decision to move the AHL teams closer was the salary cap impact. Things may have changed since, but at the time the first group of teams moved, a player being called up to the NHL was added to the NHL roster for salary cap purposes when the call was made, not when he arrived. This meant for LA that the player was counting on the cap for at least a full day, if not two, while travel arrangements were made, and while the player was en route. For Philadelphia at that time, the player walked across the parking lot and joined the big club immediately. I'm not 100% sure if the same was true for the return trip, but I believe it was - the player was getting his NHL salary for the travel day going down. It might not seem like a big deal, but over the course of a season it adds up to a significant impact on the salary cap, if the team has a lot of player movement. So it would make sense for the Canucks to move their AHL team closer now, if all the cared about was getting some salary cap flexibility. Obviously other things factor into the decision, and at least for now they balance out in favor of staying in Utica.

The last I knew it was when they were called up (not arrived) and when they arrived back at the AHL team.


Distances kinda calculated as arena-to-arena

San Jose Sharks/Barracuda and Winnipeg Jets/Manitoba Moose = 0 miles
Toronto Maple Leafs/Marlies = 2.5 miles
Montreal Canadians/Laval Rocket = 15 miles

The above could definitely induce folks to live in one place between teams.

Los Angeles Kings/Ontario Reign = 45 miles (but up to 90 minutes away)
Colorado Avalanche/Colorado Eagles = 50 miles (but 60+ minutes)
Boston Bruins/Providence Bruins = 51 miles (but easily 60+ minutes)
Philadelphia Flyers/Leigh Valley Phantoms = 68 miles
New York Islanders/Bridgeport Soundtigers = ~70 miles
Buffalo Sabres/Rochester Americans = 76 miles
Chicago Blackhawks/Rockford Hogs = 89 miles
Anaheim Ducks/San Diego Gulls = 90 miles

Now we're up to more in the range of "easy call up", but not necessarily conducive to sleeping in your own bed range.

New York Rangers/Hartford Wolf Pack = 120 miles
Ottawa Senators/Bellville Senators = 127 miles
Arizona Coyotes/Tuscon Roadrunners = 131 miles
Washington Capitals/Hershey Bears = 134 miles
Columbus Blue Jackets/Cleveland Monsters = 144 miles
Detroit/Grand Rapids = 158 miles
Carolina/Charlotte = 163 miles
New Jersey/Binghampton = 168 miles
Dallas/Texas = 182

2-3 hours travel time, not counting traffic or weather.

Minnesota/Iowa = 246
Pittsburgh/WBS = 270

Long day of travel by car. Flying faster.

Nashville/Milwaukee = 567
St Louis/San Antonio = 900
Tampa Bay/Syracuse = 1268
Calgary/Stockton = 1294
Florida/Springfield = 1391
Edmonton/Bakersfield = 1742
Vegas/Chicago = 1758
Vancouver/Utica = 2903

The last are gotta-fly-crazy-to-drive up to full-day-of-travel.

You can't just look at how close to the parent club, you have to look at how close to where the NHL road games are played and how close the AHL teeam road games are to where the NHL team plays. Stockton for example is close to San Jose and somewhat LA/Anaheim and if Stockton is say playing Colorado, they would be closer to say Dallas, Chicago, Minnesota, St. Louis, etc.
 
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adsfan

#164303
May 31, 2008
12,651
3,695
Milwaukee
Distances kinda calculated as arena-to-arena

San Jose Sharks/Barracuda and Winnipeg Jets/Manitoba Moose = 0 miles
Toronto Maple Leafs/Marlies = 2.5 miles
Montreal Canadians/Laval Rocket = 15 miles

The above could definitely induce folks to live in one place between teams.

Los Angeles Kings/Ontario Reign = 45 miles (but up to 90 minutes away)
Colorado Avalanche/Colorado Eagles = 50 miles (but 60+ minutes)
Boston Bruins/Providence Bruins = 51 miles (but easily 60+ minutes)
Philadelphia Flyers/Leigh Valley Phantoms = 68 miles
New York Islanders/Bridgeport Soundtigers = ~70 miles
Buffalo Sabres/Rochester Americans = 76 miles
Chicago Blackhawks/Rockford Hogs = 89 miles
Anaheim Ducks/San Diego Gulls = 90 miles

Now we're up to more in the range of "easy call up", but not necessarily conducive to sleeping in your own bed range.

New York Rangers/Hartford Wolf Pack = 120 miles
Ottawa Senators/Bellville Senators = 127 miles
Arizona Coyotes/Tuscon Roadrunners = 131 miles
Washington Capitals/Hershey Bears = 134 miles
Columbus Blue Jackets/Cleveland Monsters = 144 miles
Detroit/Grand Rapids = 158 miles
Carolina/Charlotte = 163 miles
New Jersey/Binghampton = 168 miles
Dallas/Texas = 182

2-3 hours travel time, not counting traffic or weather.

Minnesota/Iowa = 246
Pittsburgh/WBS = 270

Long day of travel by car. Flying faster.

Nashville/Milwaukee = 567
St Louis/San Antonio = 900
Tampa Bay/Syracuse = 1268
Calgary/Stockton = 1294
Florida/Springfield = 1391
Edmonton/Bakersfield = 1742
Vegas/Chicago = 1758
Vancouver/Utica = 2903

The last are gotta-fly-crazy-to-drive up to full-day-of-travel.

Lady Stanley, as usual, you supply stellar info.

Nashville is a 10 hours from Milwaukee, but you never know about Chicago. You can breeze through or be stuck in 1 spot for a hour or two. I have flown it in 90 minutes (try SW). Indirect flights double the time. Of course you have to get to Mitchell International Airport 60 to 90 minutes before your flight.

I have seen traffic from LA to Ontario take 2 hours. My wife just flew into Ontario last week to avoid it. Maybe the reverse trip is easier?

San Diego to Anaheim can also be 2 hours. There is a lot of traffic due to Disneyland, even if the Honda Center is away compared to the Pond.
 

Goldenshark

Registered User
Sep 16, 2007
1,126
306
Vacaville
Air Canada added non-stop flights from Vancouver to Sacramento earlier this year.

Time to install an ice plant in the Golden One Center and let us see the Utica Comets become the Sacramento Seals!
 
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Nightsquad

Registered User
Jan 25, 2014
834
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I know that we play in the smallest arena in the league that only seats 3,917 but 121 consecutive regular season sell outs is still an accomplishment. There are many larger markets and venues that struggle to get more than 2,500 on Wednesdays and Sundays during the October - December months.



That is totally a great accomplishment, I agree. Too bad though when it comes to whats best for Vancouver and the AHL wanting to have a larger footprint and profile in larger cities. The 121 number is awesome for the arena and city of Utica, but a small number on the grand scale, its not a number that will prevent Vancouver from doing what benefits them, and it wint won't stop AHL from further expansion west or to larger high profile markets.
 

Nightsquad

Registered User
Jan 25, 2014
834
100
I know that we play in the smallest arena in the league that only seats 3,917 but 121 consecutive regular season sell outs is still an accomplishment. There are many larger markets and venues that struggle to get more than 2,500 on Wednesdays and Sundays during the October - December months.



That is totally a great accomplishment, I agree. Too bad though when it comes to whats best for Vancouver and the AHL wanting to have a larger footprint and profile in larger cities. The 121 number is awesome for the arena and city of Utica, but a small number on the grand scale, its not a number that will prevent Vancouver from doing what benefits them, and it won't stop AHL from further expansion west or to larger high profile markets.
 

Cacciaguida

Registered User
Jan 11, 2010
1,621
329
Ottawa
If I team wanted to play in SF (Cow Palace SSF or in new Warriors' arena), there's the problem that the city is really Barracuda territory for one.

A team would likely have to invest ~$300k to re-renovate Cow Palace to make it somewhat viable to play hockey.

Chase Center does not list an ice plant as part of its features (from skimming Wikipedia and arena website). So, team would have to invest in (portable?) ice plant and be subject to the whims of the NBA schedule makers.

Probably way cheaper to find another venue to play in.

Not sure that Sacramento Kings' Golden Center would be any improvement. Really too close to Stockton.

The Cow Palace is a white elephant. Might as well build a smaller modern arena that isn't decrepit. The Bulls couldn't live with it as their main arena. Seals ditched it for a reason too.

Sacramento is Barracuda territory only because they currently don't have a team. Just like how Quebec City is Habs territory only because the Nordqiues haven't been brought back yet.



I expect Abbotsford and Tacoma to have AHL teams within 5 years of Seattle entering the NHL.

As for Utica, I thought they were done with pro hockey after the Devils. They have proven me wrong. I have no doubt we'll see them in the ECHL if the AHL runs out of space. It's the direction the ECHL is expanding, actual east coast teams.

Air Canada added non-stop flights from Vancouver to Sacramento earlier this year.

Time to install an ice plant in the Golden One Center and let us see the Utica Comets become the Sacramento Seals!
Air Canada added non-stop flights from Vancouver to Sacramento earlier this year.

Time to install an ice plant in the Golden One Center and let us see the Utica Comets become the Sacramento Seals!

Better to just rebrand the Barracuda. Seals have no history in Sacramento. (I want Oakland and Sacramento to get hockey teams with time)
 

DudeWhereIsMakar

Bergevin sent me an offer sheet
Apr 25, 2014
15,650
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Winnipeg
Reno is a possible home. ~4 hours from San Jose and ~3 from Stockton (by bus).

New ice rink coming to south Reno

New ice rink approved this summer.


But would it be large enough for an AHL team's fans?

It would probably start with the ECHL and the one way I see it doing well is if the AHL/ECHL affiliate was affiliated with Vegas. Vegas and Chicago are too good of partners to pass up, ECHL is more likely right now.

Vancouver will likely put their AHL team in Abbotsford/Chilliwack.
 

CHRDANHUTCH

Registered User
Mar 4, 2002
35,395
4,270
Auburn, Maine
The Cow Palace is a white elephant. Might as well build a smaller modern arena that isn't decrepit. The Bulls couldn't live with it as their main arena. Seals ditched it for a reason too.

Sacramento is Barracuda territory only because they currently don't have a team. Just like how Quebec City is Habs territory only because the Nordqiues haven't been brought back yet.



I expect Abbotsford and Tacoma to have AHL teams within 5 years of Seattle entering the NHL.

As for Utica, I thought they were done with pro hockey after the Devils. They have proven me wrong. I have no doubt we'll see them in the ECHL if the AHL runs out of space. It's the direction the ECHL is expanding, actual east coast teams.




Better to just rebrand the Barracuda. Seals have no history in Sacramento. (I want Oakland and Sacramento to get hockey teams with time)
Abbotsford is a flat out NO, unless you plan to spend multi million $ ON CONVINCING the city to bring the sport there, remember, which NHL Team sold the rights to Vancouver to have them pick Utica, hint St. Louis, who was forced out of Chicago or let that deal expire, and wasn't it Calgary that flat out blocked Vancouver when the franchise was there, and if Esche wants to be a majority operator, how do u repay him for the last 6 or so years, and not be awarding him another franchise in a different league.
 
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royals119

Registered User
Jun 12, 2006
1,457
1,139
West Lawn, PA
It would probably start with the ECHL and the one way I see it doing well is if the AHL/ECHL affiliate was affiliated with Vegas. Vegas and Chicago are too good of partners to pass up, ECHL is more likely right now.

As I said further up, this "ice rink" is just that, an ice rink - not an arena, and while the plans have been approved they don't have the money to build it yet. If they are going to start with ECHL or AHL they are going to need a different building, so any ideas about a team in Reno are a long way off.

According to the article, it was approved pending the funding, so it may not even happen. They have $3million in commitments for a $9.5million budget, so there is still a long way to go. They are looking for private or corporate donations, not government funding. The renderings with the article are for a community rink for kids, not for a professional team. They do mention a second phase that would cost $15million. It doesn't say whether that is just additional rec rinks or an actual arena, but it doesn't sound like enough money for an arena. I would guess just an addition with a second ice sheet and maybe a fitness center, snack bar, indoor soccer or other facilities.
 

Cacciaguida

Registered User
Jan 11, 2010
1,621
329
Ottawa
Abbotsford is a flat out NO, unless you plan to spend multi million $ ON CONVINCING the city to bring the sport there, remember, which NHL Team sold the rights to Vancouver to have them pick Utica, hint St. Louis, who was forced out of Chicago or let that deal expire, and wasn't it Calgary that flat out blocked Vancouver when the franchise was there, and if Esche wants to be a majority operator, how do u repay him for the last 6 or so years, and not be awarding him another franchise in a different league.

That would be a terrible idea for Abbotsford. Chilliwack it is then.
 

canuckfan75

Registered User
Jan 14, 2014
2,369
884
The decision will be made soon. December 31 is the deadline either they stay for 3 more years or this will be the last year in Utica
 

GrGriffins

Registered User
Jan 30, 2017
1,267
627
Grand Rapids, MI
I see one of 2 possible situations that could happen if Vancouver decides to pull out of Utica and head westward for 2019-20 season:

1. Rangers pay buy out clause on their remaining lease agreement they made with Hartford and moves in to Utica. Hartford either goes into ECHL or goes dormant. Vancouver new AHL team (wherever that may be) goes to the Pacific Division, Colorado Eagles moves from the Pacific Division into the Central Division, Laval Rocket moves from the North Division into the Atlantic Division, and Grand Rapids Griffins moves from the Central Division into the North Division.
or

2. Vancouver new AHL team goes to the Pacific Division, Colorado Eagles moves from the Pacific Division into the Central Division, Grand Rapids Griffins moves from the Central Division into the North Division, and Utica will most likely end up with an ECHL team.


Will see what Vancouver will do. I feel (1.) is what is going to end up happening. That is my take on it. Time will tell (end of December).
 

Hammer9001

Registered User
Apr 1, 2015
848
436
Hamilton
I always wondered why Abbotsford was never a consideration to move the Canucks farm team, given how Calgary's farm used to be there
 

JMCx4

Censorship is the Sincerest Form of Flattery
Sep 3, 2017
13,624
8,438
St. Louis, MO
I always wondered why Abbotsford was never a consideration to move the Canucks farm team, given how Calgary's farm used to be there
If the same Abbotsford city fathers/mothers are in place as those when the Flames moved their affiliate to Glens Falls in 2014, the civic challenges that doused the Heat are unlikely to change with a new team in town ... THW: The Life and Death of the Abbotsford Heat
 

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