USMNT Thread Part VIII

bleedblue1223

Registered User
Jan 21, 2011
51,854
14,797
Even if we say Pulisic is the best player in his age group, it still doesn't mean anything in terms of USMNT. It's the same trap that media and fans fall into. Until they prove it on the pitch and actually do something productive on the national team, I don't really care. Did we all forget England's golden generation? How did that go, and they actually had elite talent and much better depth.

There is this weird fascination with people around the national team that wants to announce that we have arrived. Until this group actually proves it on the field, then we haven't arrived. Now this group hasn't gotten a real chance together, and they are dealing with the sins of the past cycle, but that's just the reality.
 

YNWA14

Onbreekbaar
Dec 29, 2010
34,543
2,560
Except transfermarkt isn't an objective measure of talent, and it doesn't measure talent at all. Furthermore you used an arbitrary number of players that suited your argument because the US begins to fall off in a large way on your 'objective site' the further from the top 5 it gets. You know that what you are saying is controversial, and you also probably know it's not true.

So what should I use? Should I use the opinion of someone who tells me Dest was a bad Eredivisie player?

Did I say he was a bad Eredivisie player? I said he had his struggles there, and that he was in no way dominant there which is still true. I know you really want him to be an elite player but he isn't.
How much value does a fullback really have? An elite attacker is worth a lot more than an elite fullback.
Yeah, you're probably right. Fullbacks are largely replaceable and not that important. We've seen that quite a lot lately.
 

Duchene2MacKinnon

In the hands of Genius
Aug 8, 2006
45,300
9,465
I'm not debating that. Pulisic improved a lot last season, so if we are comparing the players now, using Pulisic's Bundesliga stats doesn't accurately reflect his current ability. Also, the top few leagues are roughly the same level that we don't need to distinguish between the leagues, and go for a comparison of when players played in the same leagues instead of what is current as of today.
Even if you use Pulisic stats last year Kai out produces him... last year Kai had 16 goals in 35 games 8 assists too. Pulisic had 10 in 29 games and 8 assists.
 

East Coast Bias

Registered User
Feb 28, 2014
8,362
6,422
NYC
Even if we say Pulisic is the best player in his age group, it still doesn't mean anything in terms of USMNT. It's the same trap that media and fans fall into. Until they prove it on the pitch and actually do something productive on the national team, I don't really care. Did we all forget England's golden generation? How did that go, and they actually had elite talent and much better depth.

There is this weird fascination with people around the national team that wants to announce that we have arrived. Until this group actually proves it on the field, then we haven't arrived. Now this group hasn't gotten a real chance together, and they are dealing with the sins of the past cycle, but that's just the reality.


Yeah this sums up how I feel as well. It's great that Americans are becoming more prevalent in Europe and landing at big clubs developing. But I can't help but feel like the issues with the USMNT program itself aren't resolved. The last WC failure is still ingrained in my mind and it's going to take more than Dest to Barca to change that. Much less start to think about a top 10 national team.
 

YNWA14

Onbreekbaar
Dec 29, 2010
34,543
2,560
Even if we were using transfermarkt as a barometer according to this: The most valuable national teams the US is not even in the top 50 most valuable NTs. Are 5 players who are (very questionably) rated at what they are in u23 really going to propel them into the top 10?
 

bleedblue1223

Registered User
Jan 21, 2011
51,854
14,797
Even if we were using transfermarkt as a barometer according to this: The most valuable national teams the US is not even in the top 50 most valuable NTs. Are 5 players who are (very questionably) rated at what they are in u23 really going to propel them into the top 10?
I think that's just taking the most recent squad, so Pulisic is included. Which is just more reason why transfermarkt values is a silly way to evaluate national teams.

Will we ever be able to attract an actual high-caliber manager?
 

ecemleafs

Registered User
Jan 4, 2009
19,570
4,658
New York
Best-case, I see us becoming what Mexico is, that should be what our realistic goal is. Have a talented squad that can compete with the top and consistently control our region, but realistically never really challenging to knock of the top.
best case with a group of pulisic, reyna, mckennie, adams, dest isnt losing in the round of 16 literally every world cup like mexico does. this team has been a disaster the last 3 years, but weve now produced young talent like weve never done before and they are all under 23 years old.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
Dec 8, 2013
57,592
23,518
New York
Even if you use Pulisic stats last year Kai out produces him... last year Kai had 16 goals in 35 games 8 assists too. Pulisic had 10 in 29 games and 8 assists.

I hope you aren't serious. Havertz played nearly 1500 more minutes.

I didn't think I needed to spell out per minute because it's so obviously the only way to compare two players who played a vastly different number of minutes, but I guess I do.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Basement Cat

bleedblue1223

Registered User
Jan 21, 2011
51,854
14,797
best case with a group of pulisic, reyna, mckennie, adams, dest isnt losing in the round of 16 literally every world cup like mexico does. this team has been a disaster the last 3 years, but weve now produced young talent like weve never done before and they are all under 23 years old.
Even if they all hit their potential, we still have terrible depth, surrounding pieces, and coaching.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
Dec 8, 2013
57,592
23,518
New York
Even if we say Pulisic is the best player in his age group, it still doesn't mean anything in terms of USMNT. It's the same trap that media and fans fall into. Until they prove it on the pitch and actually do something productive on the national team, I don't really care. Did we all forget England's golden generation? How did that go, and they actually had elite talent and much better depth.

There is this weird fascination with people around the national team that wants to announce that we have arrived. Until this group actually proves it on the field, then we haven't arrived. Now this group hasn't gotten a real chance together, and they are dealing with the sins of the past cycle, but that's just the reality.

Actually, if you go back and look at how this discussion started, it was suggested by someone on twitter that we are on our way to becoming top ten. It was then criticized by you. You essentially suggested the top ten won't change, that we need to worry about being as good as Mexico (a country whose struggling to produce players recently), and that the current young US crop aren't actually any better than a prior crop. It was then suggested by me that there's nothing wrong with suggesting that we are on our way. No one proclaimed that it'll happen immediately, but there's clear improvement in the player pool from even five years ago, and it's not 28 year olds who've made their way up with underdog stories. It's players that range from 17-22.

I also don't know what our best young players haven't proven on the field. Does Pulisic not have 14G, 10A in 2262 minutes for the USMNT? McKennie and Adams have also been really good. Even Dest has been pretty good in brief time, so these players are proving it on the field. The issue remains our National Team still isn't very good because our prime aged players suck. It's not the fault of the up and coming crop.

Even if they all hit their potential, we still have terrible depth, surrounding pieces, and coaching.

Why do you think this is it? Did you know who Sergino Dest was two years ago? Did you know who Gio Reyna was one year ago? Five years ago, you probably hadn't even heard of Pulisic. If they all hit their potential, it's probably 10 years away, so thats 10 more years to produce more good players. 10 years ago Pulisic was 12 years old, and no one had heard of him. There's plenty of time to produce more good players.

These players are all there. The 15-20 year old kids who haven't broken out yet aren't any worse than the five year span between Pulisic and Reyna. We just don't know which of them will emerge and break out into top level players. And while I really have no idea what the 10 year old crop is looking like, I have a hard time believing that after we showed such a big improvement already in the last few years, that it's all of a sudden going to stop.

The point is that we are improving with producing players. It's not a golden generation. This should be looked at as a permanent thing that we are producing better players. I don't know why anyone would be surprised. The USA has the most registered youth football players in the world. We have the most diverse population in the world. We are a country with a great athletic history. We are a country with plenty of financial resources to help. There's no reason that as the system for producing players improves that the players shouldn't, as well.
 
Last edited:

Duchene2MacKinnon

In the hands of Genius
Aug 8, 2006
45,300
9,465
I hope you aren't serious. Havertz played nearly 1500 more minutes.

I didn't think I needed to spell out per minute because it's so obviously the only way to compare two players who played a vastly different number of minutes, but I guess I do.
WE compared them when they were in the same league Kai outproduces him. When comparing them in the last season alone which you insist upon for some reason, Kai outproduces. You're moving the goal posts. All this and Kai is a year younger. Talking objectively yeah...

The good thing is they play in the same league with the same club the answer will be pretty clear in April.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
Dec 8, 2013
57,592
23,518
New York
WE compared them when they were in the same league Kai outproduces him. When comparing them in the last season alone which you insist upon for some reason, Kai outproduces. You're moving the goal posts. All this and Kai is a year younger. Talking objectively yeah...

The good thing is they play in the same league with the same club the answer will be pretty clear in April.

How can you use their play from prior years when we are talking about now? Players in their early season 20’s will improve, some a lot, and some very little. As I said, you can take a victory that Havertz was better than Pulisic when Pulisic was worse. It’s largely irrelevant to where they are now.

And current transfer value is surely based mostly on current ability, not potential. At least that’s how I think it should be. Havertz is younger, and maybe he ends up better than Pulisic. I never said otherwise. I’m merely stating that if we want to talk about current transfer value, current ability should be the overwhelming factor in that calculation.

I also don’t know what you’d like me to judge on. I’ve now given two objective measures in this thread, and I’m told neither are an appropriate measure. We all have our opinions, but those discussions become more contentious when we use more subjective measures. I tried to base my arguments here on what can be objectively agreed on. I guess that’s not what I should try to do next time. I’ll just say it’s my opinion because I say so. Maybe that’ll meet more favorable reception from some people.
 

Duchene2MacKinnon

In the hands of Genius
Aug 8, 2006
45,300
9,465
How can you use their play from prior years when we are talking about now? Players in their early season 20’s will improve, some a lot, and some very little. As I said, you can take a victory that Havertz was better than Pulisic when Pulisic was worse. It’s largely irrelevant to where they are now.

Why would we only count one year as to whos better? This is illogical and arbitrary time frame. Kai has been better every year so its irrelevant when you pick to start comparing their stats.

And current transfer value is surely based mostly on current ability, not potential. At least that’s how I think it should be. Havertz is younger, and maybe he ends up better than Pulisic. I never said otherwise. I’m merely stating that if we want to talk about current transfer value, current ability should be the overwhelming factor in that calculation.

Again the trasnfermarkt website is all subjective. Never a good measuring stick. Take for example Foyth "playing" in Europe for awhile on a good team. His market value is at 13 million. Yet, he's clearly been a bust. Perez on the other hand is coming his first year in Europe playing on a small team his market value is 8 million. Does it matter that Perez was one of the best defenders in Portugal? That he was captain of a gold winning team in the u20s? Of course not only thing that matters is where he plays. I guarantee you he will be rated higher than Foyth in a couple of months staying with Atleti now.
 

bluesfan94

Registered User
Jan 7, 2008
30,997
8,218
St. Louis
I think this whole argument is kinda silly. I think USMNT has a bunch of very promising players and if everyone hits, they could easily be a top 15 or so country. Of course, they could also all bust or get injured or what have you. Trying to compare who's marginally better is a fool's errand
 

Islay1989

Registered User
Feb 24, 2020
3,840
3,322
If I had a 1000$ for every next golden generation that was bound to turn the fortunes of their country I'd be swimming in $.
 

Islay1989

Registered User
Feb 24, 2020
3,840
3,322
I think this whole argument is kinda silly. I think USMNT has a bunch of very promising players and if everyone hits, they could easily be a top 15 or so country. Of course, they could also all bust or get injured or what have you. Trying to compare who's marginally better is a fool's errand

Pretty much. You don't need to look further than Pulisic's teammate at Chelsea. Barkley was lauded as the next big thing and successor to the golden generation of Lampard and Stevie G. Fast forward 5 years and he is what? A bench player on a big club and likely an unspectacular Prem league player for the rest of his career. He will be happy if he ever puts on a top club's shirt on when Chelsea finally moves on. Delle is stagnating for years. For every highly louded player who makes it there's hundreds who faded into mediocrity. Look at United with Januzaj, Macheda, Fabio or Morrison. All of the guys that failed at Chelsea. Krkic, Hadadi, Cuenca for Barca. All of those had as much if not more promise that anyone on the US list. None made it past being a mediocre two-bit footballer.

The difference between US now and US back in the day is that they are a bit more consistent in producing talent. But that doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things. No one in football cares about u-23 rankings, they mean absolutely nothing as footballers in general mature far later in their career. Thsi isn't hockey where the peak is between 22 and 26.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
Dec 8, 2013
57,592
23,518
New York
Pretty much. You don't need to look further than Pulisic's teammate at Chelsea. Barkley was lauded as the next big thing and successor to the golden generation of Lampard and Stevie G. Fast forward 5 years and he is what? A bench player on a big club and likely an unspectacular Prem league player for the rest of his career. He will be happy if he ever puts on a top club's shirt on when Chelsea finally moves on. Delle is stagnating for years. For every highly louded player who makes it there's hundreds who faded into mediocrity. Look at United with Januzaj, Macheda, Fabio or Morrison. All of the guys that failed at Chelsea. Krkic, Hadadi, Cuenca for Barca. All of those had as much if not more promise that anyone on the US list. None made it past being a mediocre two-bit footballer.

The difference between US now and US back in the day is that they are a bit more consistent in producing talent. But that doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things. No one in football cares about u-23 rankings, they mean absolutely nothing as footballers in general mature far later in their career. Thsi isn't hockey where the peak is between 22 and 26.

None of those guys were ever as good as Pulisic was last season. Arguably none are as good as McKennie is now either.

Of course U23 matters. It’s a great predictor of future success.
 
Sep 19, 2008
373,510
24,617


I figured this thread would be the most fitting as he was a fan of soccer and talked a lot about the USMNT.

I never listened a lot to him, but it's undeniable the impact he played on the world of soccer podcasting. TSS was a huge soccer podcast and Grove often appeared on other podcasts like Scuffed and Grant Wahl's podcast.

RIP.
 

East Coast Bias

Registered User
Feb 28, 2014
8,362
6,422
NYC


I figured this thread would be the most fitting as he was a fan of soccer and talked a lot about the USMNT.

I never listened a lot to him, but it's undeniable the impact he played on the world of soccer podcasting. TSS was a huge soccer podcast and Grove often appeared on other podcasts like Scuffed and Grant Wahl's podcast.

RIP.


goodbye to who?
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad