YNWA14
Onbreekbaar
- Dec 29, 2010
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USMNT Thread Part VIII
- Thread starter SSF
- Start date
Gecklund
Registered User
Perfect. Glad we are on the same page and you yet again have proved your homerism.
YNWA14
Onbreekbaar
- Dec 29, 2010
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Preach, you know it all. I'm just here to learn; most of what you've provided has been very insightful.
Gecklund
Registered User
I’ve been waiting for you to give something to discuss. You haven’t. Never a good idea to throw stones in a glass house.
Pavel Buchnevich
Drury and Laviolette Must Go
Getting game time at 18?he has played a total of 26 minutes for Bayern. If that’s game time to you then wow.
Fantastic. David scores a nice goal. Pulisic drags the US and scores nice goals and sets up nice plays in what feels like every game. If you take either of them over Pulisic then you are just delusional. There’s a reason Pulisic got game time for Dortmund (and a whole lot more than 26 minutes) at 18.
It’s become fashionable to hate on Pulisic, and there’s basically nothing he can do for opposing fans to not call him overrated. It’s just going to come with the territory for this kid of being the best American player. That means he must be overrated.
Duchene2MacKinnon
In the hands of Genius
- Aug 8, 2006
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He must definitely over hyped. Most kids are we’re all guilty of this and being the American media is on steroids he will get hyped to no end!
Doesn’t mean he’s bad or not good
Doesn’t mean he’s bad or not good
Pavel Buchnevich
Drury and Laviolette Must Go
David was born in the USA. Decided to play for Canada. You can’t blame the kid. He looks like the best young Canadian player, in my opinion. I think he’s better than Davies. I wouldn’t mind Dortmund signing him either. But he shouldn’t be compared to Pulisic. One is proven at the top level, the other isn’t. Adams and McKennie, two well-above average young American Bundesliga players aren’t even considered comparable to Pulisic. Pulisic is one of the best young players in the world. He’s not a prospect anymore either. He’s past that point.
As to comparing USA and Canada, it’s not fair to Canada. They are improving, but they have not proven anything in any games that matter. They need to start being better than Honduras, Panama, Jamaica, T&T or Costa Rica before they can be compared to the USA or Mexico. A bad Gold Cup for us was losing in the final 1-0. We tied Uruguay yesterday. Canada was celebrating a victory over Cuba. It’s a different level of football. Canada is a very good sporting nation and has potential to be a top 2-3 team in the region, but they aren’t yet a proven top five team. It’s too early to compare them to the USA. Yes, we are turning over a new generation, but Canada is not comparable to us. That’s a ridiculous suggestion.
As to comparing USA and Canada, it’s not fair to Canada. They are improving, but they have not proven anything in any games that matter. They need to start being better than Honduras, Panama, Jamaica, T&T or Costa Rica before they can be compared to the USA or Mexico. A bad Gold Cup for us was losing in the final 1-0. We tied Uruguay yesterday. Canada was celebrating a victory over Cuba. It’s a different level of football. Canada is a very good sporting nation and has potential to be a top 2-3 team in the region, but they aren’t yet a proven top five team. It’s too early to compare them to the USA. Yes, we are turning over a new generation, but Canada is not comparable to us. That’s a ridiculous suggestion.
Gecklund
Registered User
I do think Pulisic is overrated and overhyped but at the same time I think he gets both sides. One side that says he’s the best player in the world (obvious over reaction) and the other side that says he’s trash (again obvious over reaction).
Pavel Buchnevich
Drury and Laviolette Must Go
I would agree with you, if I saw people claim he’s an actual star player compared to the best players, but who says that? I don’t see these comments. I think there’s such an emphasis to overcorrect that these types of things get way overplayed. He gets talked about an inordinate amount of time because he’s the best American player, but I don’t see that many of these irresponsible comments that compare him to players like Messi or Ronaldo. Maybe people who don’t follow the sport will think that, but those who do know the sport know he’s not at that level.
YNWA14
Onbreekbaar
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Especially when you consider he lived in the US for a whole 3 months of his life, when he was first born, and has lived in Canada since he was 6...learning all of his soccer there.
David and Davies are definitely very different in the way that say Robben and Lewandowski are very different. Davies is going to be someone that carries the play, is a dangerman himself but acts as a link and constant threat to the other team when he gets on the ball. David is a lot more subtle in the way he impacts games; he's not going to be a guy that needs to spend a ton of time on the ball but makes most of his touches count...he's using his awareness, work-rate, intelligence and instincts to be in the right places and his composure is really, really impressive. He's also quite versatile and can do the job anywhere in the attacking part of the field. As long as he can translate his decision making, movement and his touch/finishing hold up he seems ideal as a modern striker/secondary striker. I remember the talk around here when David was signed in Belgium and it was easy to dismiss as I've known a few guys around here that have gone on trials, or gone pro/semi-pro and come back but it's Canada right nothing is really expected of it. These guys are really bucking the old culture and are part of the new generation of Canadians that are growing up living and breathing the game with the facilities and coaching available to really make something of it. There are some really decent academies kicking around now. Look at guys like Jahkeele Marshall-Rutty and Antoine Coupland now kicking on (though I have my reservations about their pro contracts, because getting caught up in the MLS or North American professional system is a bad idea ATM); not all the potentials will make it as big as they're made out to be but it's pretty exciting.
Now, I've never been that high on Pulisic, and it doesn't have anything to do with a hype job (though I do think he was overhyped at one point). I remember when Liverpool were linked with him for a bit and people were pretty keen on it but I wasn't. I think he's a very good young player, but I definitely wouldn't consider him among the best in the world (relative). Pulisic being 'proven' at the top level is a bit much as well. He's a good player but it's not like he's someone who has proven he should be a starter for a top European team or anything like that, and I haven't seen much in him that says to me he has another level to go up and become one of those guys. It probably is a bit of bias on my part, but I do see that in Davies/David as they've really impressed me since moving on from their roots -- now again, maybe that happens as a result of low expectations to begin with and now they're exceeding them, but ultimately even if you look at just Davies and the way he was dominating the MLS at such a young age before his move to Bayern...yeah I like them better than Pulisic, but that's just my opinion.
Are people really comparing Canada to the US in terms of their standing in world football? I don't think that anyone is suggesting that. They are definitely on the upswing though, and sometimes with the right coaching and a couple of stars you don't have to be a top nation to win. You tied Uruguay in a friendly in which they used how many of their starting players? The US just got absolutely destroyed by Mexico (who's last game with Canada was pretty close, and they just got slapped by Argentina) and was dumped out of World Cup qualification by T&T.
Anyway, maybe a lot of this belongs in the Canadian topic but just shedding some light. If you're at the grass roots in Canada right now and involved with the soccer programs you can see the actual cultural shift going on in a big way.
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bluesfan94
Registered User
YNWA14
Onbreekbaar
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As though Canadians are running around saying they're on a different tier to the US, or that they need to get on the level of a team like T&T to even be compared to Canada. Though that going over your head is...not overly surprising.
bluesfan94
Registered User
I’m pretty sure this conversation started with someone saying that Canada could beat America.
I mean, you said they’re the same level of team. So I assume y’all at least made the hex, right?
sabremike
Friend To All Giraffes
Honduras, who also dumped us out of the WC with the win vs Mexico on the last day of qualifying.
bluesfan94
Registered User
That was in the hex?
I guess that was a couple years ago, now. Let’s look more recent. Who knocked Canada out of the Gold Cup?
East Coast Bias
Registered User
You kinda have to expect this reaction when you say Canada has 2 teens that are better than any one in the US squad.
YNWA14
Onbreekbaar
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Why is that? It's impossible to have a rational discussion when someone has an opinion you don't agree with? I mean I was not surprised by a couple of the reactions given the sources, but still.
Pavel Buchnevich
Drury and Laviolette Must Go
I mostly agree. I don't love the way he plays either. There are young American players who I think have higher potential, but potential doesn't mean anything when we are talking about whose currently better. Most players with high potential turn into busts. Pulisic has developed extremely well, and is likely to hit his ceiling. He's one of the best dribbling wingers in the world with very good combination play and he's improved his end-product to about average at the top-level. I don't know if he'll ever be a starter level player at Barcelona or Real Madrid, but he could probably play a role at any team in the world.
If you want to say you like the Canadian born 2000 players better than the American born 2000 players, I wouldn't even object. I might disagree, but it's a valid argument. I'm just saying that comparing any of these players, whether it's a Canadian comparing Canadians or an American comparing American players, to Pulisic is not a good comparison.
Canada could absolutely beat the USA. I'm not saying Canada couldn't win a game, but I don't believe this discussion was about whether Canada could win a game. Canada is improving, and I suspect they will be among the top 3 teams in CONCACAF within five years. It might take them a little while to catch up to the USA or Mexico. At the same time, the USA is improving. Outsiders don't see it because it's easy to only look at the senior team results and our generation of players in their prime isn't any good, which makes the results worse. We've never had this many young players making an impact in the big European leagues as we have now. We are a team on the rise, but of course we aren't going to be good when almost all our best players are 20 year olds.
And I'm not bragging about tying with Uruguay. It was to show that you have to take into account that our results are against the top level teams, not island nations in CONCACAF. I also think people exaggerate the recent loss to Mexico. Mexico didn't destroy us. They won 3-0 with two goals in the last 15 minutes after both teams emptied the benches. That game included a missed penalty by a young prospect who wouldn't be taking the penalty in a game that mattered. Possession was 52/48 in favor of Mexico. SOG were 4-4. In the Gold Cup Final, they won 1-0 with 56/44 possession advantage and an 11-6 SOG advantage. Both close games.
This idea that I've seen from a lot of people in recent months that Mexico is a lot better just isn't reality. All their main players are in their prime. Almost none of our main players are in their prime. It makes sense that in a close rivalry they'd be slightly better now. It doesn't mean they are a lot better or are destroying us. They don't have the capability to do that with any regularity. We are also lapping them at youth level, an area they were traditionally very strong at. They've now started poaching a lot of American-born kids for their youth teams. I think the US-Mexico rivalry is actually going in a direction that favors the USA, but a lot don't see it because they overreact to a senior team result here or there. I'm not saying you are the only one doing that. I've seen many say this recently, and it makes nearly no sense.
bleedblue1223
Registered User
- Jan 21, 2011
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East Coast Bias
Registered User
I got no issue with you liking Davies long term over Pulisic, but you can't be surprised with people pushing back on that argument as of right now. As of today, their resumes really aren't close. You do this a lot where you argue player A > player B because you like his potential. Which is fine cause everyone sees things differently, but you have to understand that is in no way quantifiable for anyone else. You very much value your impressions of players over their results. Not everyone is going to see it that way.
YNWA14
Onbreekbaar
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Right, and I didn't ask anyone to, but I wasn't basing it just on potential; it's from watching them play. Sometimes opportunity plays a large part in exposure before people see how good a player really is. I brought up the statistics because it's the only quantifiable way to measure current offensive impact, but I also touched on what I see in those two players when they are playing at the top level. Davies was absolutely dominant in a men's league at 16/17 before his move to Bayern where he, understandably, isn't getting the same level of opportunity as he transitions. When he has played though he's looked great...when the two have played for Canada they've been awesome. I'm not arguing resumes; I just think that they're better and have higher potential. There are a lot of players out there that are, IMO, better than current players on bigger teams than the ones they currently occupy.
Opportunity is also just a really interesting part of soccer (and all sports really) in general. That said I also recognize this is the USMNT thread so having this discussion here is going to rustle some feathers and I didn't mean to derail the topic as I was just saying I'd take those two over any player from either team ATM, I wasn't really trying to make an argument for it.
I will however mostly agree with you on this: You very much value your impressions of players over their results. Not everyone is going to see it that way. That's very true, though I think that largely those players I get good impressions from tend to lead to results, though when they don't I'm also always around to take my lumps and admit when I'm wrong.
bleedblue1223
Registered User
- Jan 21, 2011
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Davies dominant in a men's league, sure technically the MLS is a men's league, but it's no where near top class, and I wouldn't say he dominated.
Gecklund
Registered User
sabremike
Friend To All Giraffes
Mexico has actually won a u-17 World Cup. Our youth teams make some tournaments, maybe win a knockout round and then get sent home. And of course there are the two straight missed Olympics. Given what they have to work with and the resources available USSF is complete embarrassing toilet water in terms of youth development (and really in every other conceivable area of the sport as well, to the point they qualify as a national embarrassment).
