Updated line up

[BlueBaron]

People always try to be brilliant with these threads but reality is there is almost no forward debate and No Thornton is not supplanting Kerfoot or he'd have been moved to free up Cap.

99%

Mikhy-Taveres-Marner
Hyman-Matthew-Nylander
Robertson-Kerfoot-Simmonds
Everyone Else-Thornton-Spezza

The real debate is the the bottom 3. Dangle did a good talk on this where they basically all agreed anyone but the kids could end up in any of the bottom spots depending on camp, which I kind of agree with. The Muzzin partner is the big question. Most of the experts seem to think Timmy and Sandin are not in the conversation at all. It sounds like its Dermott or Lehtonen's job to lose.

 

[ottomaddox]

People always try to be brilliant with these threads but reality is there is almost no forward debate and No Thornton is not supplanting Kerfoot or he'd have been moved to free up Cap.

99%

Mikhy-Taveres-Marner
Hyman-Matthew-Nylander
Robertson-Kerfoot-Simmonds
Everyone Else-Thornton-Spezza

The real debate is the the bottom 3. Dangle did a good talk on this where they basically all agreed anyone but the kids could end up in any of the bottom spots depending on camp, which I kind of agree with. The Muzzin partner is the big question. Most of the experts seem to think Timmy and Sandin are not in the conversation at all. It sounds like its Dermott or Lehtonen's job to lose.

Thornton is likely going to supplant Kerfoot. Kerfoot is not a good enough center, and I imagine he'll be moved all over the place to justify: 1. His salary 2. Trading Kadri for him. Based on 1 year with TOR and a play in series Kerfoot has proven that if he plays 3rd line C for TOR in the post season he'll be eaten alive.

 

[Face Of Bear]

Thornton > Kerfoot (bad)

 

[Buds17]

People always try to be brilliant with these threads but reality is there is almost no forward debate and No Thornton is not supplanting Kerfoot or he'd have been moved to free up Cap.

99%

Mikhy-Taveres-Marner
Hyman-Matthew-Nylander
Robertson-Kerfoot-Simmonds
Everyone Else-Thornton-Spezza

The real debate is the the bottom 3. Dangle did a good talk on this where they basically all agreed anyone but the kids could end up in any of the bottom spots depending on camp, which I kind of agree with. The Muzzin partner is the big question. Most of the experts seem to think Timmy and Sandin are not in the conversation at all. It sounds like its Dermott or Lehtonen's job to lose.

The one spot for 'everyone else' should likely be contested between three candidates (Engvall, Vesey and Barabanov). In actuality, I think there could be two spots available since I'm not sure that Robertson is considered to be a lock. For the blueline, I'd peg Rielly-Brodie and Muzzin-Holl as the top two pairings. Two of Dermott, Lehtonen and Bogosian would then round out the starting six.

 

[BlueBaron]

The one spot for 'everyone else' should likely be contested between three candidates (Engvall, Vesey and Barabanov). In actuality, I think there could be two spots available since I'm not sure that Robertson is considered to be a lock. For the blueline, I'd peg Rielly-Brodie and Muzzin-Holl as the top two pairings. Two of Dermott, Lehtonen and Bogosian would then round out the starting six.

I think you might be right, another variable is Spezza moving in and out. It's basically been said Robertson is expected on the team and frankly we need the talent but anything can change. I'd say keeping him down to stagger contracts would make sense but we just drafted a LW 15th. It's been said Holl is going to be hard to supplant and I agree, I am just hoping a better option steps up and Lehtonen seems a possible candidate for that. Dermott, who knows?

 

[BlueBaron]

Thornton is likely going to supplant Kerfoot. Kerfoot is not a good enough center, and I imagine he'll be moved all over the place to justify: 1. His salary 2. Trading Kadri for him. Based on 1 year with TOR and a play in series Kerfoot has proven that if he plays 3rd line C for TOR in the post season he'll be eaten alive.

Tell me. If you were GM why would you keep Kerfoot if you thought Thornton was taking that spot? Wouldn't it have made sense to trade him instead of Kappy? A 3 and a half million dollar utility player is not a luxary this team can afford.

Most Leaf fans sell Kerfoot short because he isn't Kadri but he's just fine. Thornton is slow. We did not get him to be our 3rd line C. Is he going to be better than last year? 34 Points. He got 2 more points than Kerfoot in 5 more games. I know plus minus isn't a thing anymore but Joe was -19, he's not going to get better, only worse. Do I need to compare their power play time? I admire your optimism but it seems far fetched and contradicts what management is saying.

 

[hotpaws]

Tell me. If you were GM why would you keep Kerfoot if you thought Thornton was taking that spot? Wouldn't it have made sense to trade him instead of Kappy? A 3 and a half million dollar utility player is not a luxary this team can afford.

Most Leaf fans sell Kerfoot short because he isn't Kadri but he's just fine. Thornton is slow. We did not get him to be our 3rd line C. Is he going to be better than last year? 34 Points. He got 2 more points than Kerfoot in 5 more games. I know plus minus isn't a thing anymore but Joe was -19, he's not going to get better, only worse. Do I need to compare their power play time? I admire your optimism but it seems far fetched and contradicts what management is saying.

they tried to trade Kerfoot but no one wanted him

 

[ottomaddox]

Tell me. If you were GM why would you keep Kerfoot if you thought Thornton was taking that spot? Wouldn't it have made sense to trade him instead of Kappy? A 3 and a half million dollar utility player is not a luxary this team can afford.

Most Leaf fans sell Kerfoot short because he isn't Kadri but he's just fine. Thornton is slow. We did not get him to be our 3rd line C. Is he going to be better than last year? 34 Points. He got 2 more points than Kerfoot in 5 more games. I know plus minus isn't a thing anymore but Joe was -19, he's not going to get better, only worse. Do I need to compare their power play time? I admire your optimism but it seems far fetched and contradicts what management is saying.

Oh? What is management saying?

How do you know whether there were offers for Kerfoot or not? Perhaps there wasn't single offer for Kerfoot.

They moved Kap because they got a pretty good offer + cap relief to sign ufa D-men.

Joe Thornton has an entire career to fall back on. How is he effective as a 4th line match-up checking role? That sounds like Kerfoot to me.

I talked to a lot Sharks fans. They said that Joe was not a liability last season. Conversely, I talked to a lot of Leafs fans. They said that Kerfoot was a liability last season. I don't know why any fan would think that the 3rd line C position is owed to Kerfoot. I don't know why any coach would keep Thornton to 9 min. a night of ice time. He can win face-offs and his vision/playmaking puts Kerfoot's to shame.

I think maybe the short answer to your question is that Kerfoot is going to play on the wing, because he's not that great as a 3rd line C.

 

[Buds17]

I think you might be right, another variable is Spezza moving in and out. It's basically been said Robertson is expected on the team and frankly we need the talent but anything can change. I'd say keeping him down to stagger contracts would make sense but we just drafted a LW 15th. It's been said Holl is going to be hard to supplant and I agree, I am just hoping a better option steps up and Lehtonen seems a possible candidate for that. Dermott, who knows?

I agree with your points. Sounds like we'd be looking at a compressed schedule. I'd expect more line shuffling and lineup changes than we've previously seen; possibly even on a game-to-game basis. Rosters could potentially be expanded beyond the typical maximum as well. The depth added to all three areas of the roster should serve the team well.

 

[BlueBaron]

I agree with your points. Sounds like we'd be looking at a compressed schedule. I'd expect more line shuffling and lineup changes than we've previously seen; possibly even on a game-to-game basis. Rosters could potentially be expanded beyond the typical maximum as well. The depth added to all three areas of the roster should serve the team well.

Some of the TV guys suggest Thornton and Spezza might alternate a bit but I don't see that. I can't speak for everyone but I have grown quite fond of Spezza and I want him treated right.

 

[BlueBaron]

Oh? What is management saying?

How do you know whether there were offers for Kerfoot or not? Perhaps there wasn't single offer for Kerfoot.

They moved Kap because they got a pretty good offer + cap relief to sign ufa D-men.

Joe Thornton has an entire career to fall back on. How is he effective as a 4th line match-up checking role? That sounds like Kerfoot to me.

I talked to a lot Sharks fans. They said that Joe was not a liability last season. Conversely, I talked to a lot of Leafs fans. They said that Kerfoot was a liability last season. I don't know why any fan would think that the 3rd line C position is owed to Kerfoot. I don't know why any coach would keep Thornton to 9 min. a night of ice time. He can win face-offs and his vision/playmaking puts Kerfoot's to shame.

I think maybe the short answer to your question is that Kerfoot is going to play on the wing, because he's not that great as a 3rd line C.

Yeah that must be it, no one needs C, everyone needs wingers. I stopped reading after that. Kerfoot could be traded in 2 seconds.

 

[BlueBaron]

they tried to trade Kerfoot but no one wanted him

Source?
I don't believe you.

 

[hamzarocks]

Yeah that must be it, no one needs C, everyone needs wingers. I stopped reading after that. Kerfoot could be traded in 2 seconds.

Kapanen as a player and an asset >> Kerfoot. His value was much higher than kerfoot would be

If we took a 4th or a C prospect maybe kerfoot gets dealt. Look at what AJ went for. He got a B- prospect and hes a better player than Kerfoot.

We could deal kerfoot but it would be better to see if he can rebound and either serve as a suitable 3C or let seattle take him/deal him prior to ED and get better value

 

[BlueBaron]

Kapanen as a player and an asset >> Kerfoot. His value was much higher than kerfoot would be

If we took a 4th or a C prospect maybe kerfoot gets dealt. Look at what AJ went for. He got a B- prospect and hes a better player than Kerfoot.

We could deal kerfoot but it would be better to see if he can rebound and either serve as a suitable 3C or let seattle take him/deal him prior to ED and get better value

I'm not sure about AJ being better. Tiny sample size, easier position,

Kerfoot had fairly normal production for a 3rd line C on a top heavy team so naturally we would want to replace him with a 4rth line C so we can keep a winger...Do I really have to explain how important C is to you guys?

 

[hotpaws]

Source?
I don't believe you.

of course you don't and i also assume you don't believe all the reports he was being shopped

but actually believe the return for Mango was outstanding even though he's such a poor prospect he could only get a 2 way deal coming off his elc

 

[hamzarocks]

I'm not sure about AJ being better. Tiny sample size, easier position,

Kerfoot had fairly normal production for a 3rd line C on a top heavy team so naturally we would want to replace him with a 4rth line C so we can keep a winger...Do I really have to explain how important C is to you guys?

Good Centers are valued highly, kerfoot produced like a low end 3rc line center and had injury concerns. His production was not up to his pay. Big Joe is only slower than kerfoot but he still possess higher skill in terms of playmaking and being able to make smart high IQ plays. He will get games as the 3C with kerfoot at the wing.

We dealt kap+AJ simply b/c the kapanen deal was a no brainers and kerfoot wasnt bringing a piece as good as hallinder let alone the 15th pick and the AJ deal we needed space and we choose to make that the AJ deal since we had Robertson as a safety valve with dubas really liking Joey Anderson.

Kerfoot value is at an all time low and we are trying to rehab it and see what type of player he really is

 

[Dekes For Days]

they tried to trade Kerfoot but no one wanted him

That is not true at all.

 

[kb]

Good Centers are valued highly, kerfoot produced like a low end 3rc line center and had injury concerns. His production was not up to his pay. Big Joe is only slower than kerfoot but he still possess higher skill in terms of playmaking and being able to make smart high IQ plays. He will get games as the 3C with kerfoot at the wing.

We dealt kap+AJ simply b/c the kapanen deal was a no brainers and kerfoot wasnt bringing a piece as good as hallinder let alone the 15th pick and the AJ deal we needed space and we choose to make that the AJ deal since we had Robertson as a safety valve with dubas really liking Joey Anderson.

Kerfoot value is at an all time low and we are trying to rehab it and see what type of player he really is

Kerfoot had injury concerns? He had his face caved in (broken orbital bone) by an elbow that was not called, and that was right at the beginning of the season. He still put up almost 30 points missing games and wearing a cage in the shortened season He is not a low end #3c. He came back and was one of the better players against Columbus when healthy and able to breathe again.

This take is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Doublerum1975]

Kerfoot had injury concerns? He had his face caved in (broken orbital bone) by an elbow that was not called, and that was right at the beginning of the season. He still put up almost 30 points missing games and wearing a cage in the shortened season He is not a low end #3c. He came back and was one of the better players against Columbus when healthy and able to breathe again.

This take is absolutely ridiculous.

I agree with everything you say here except i thought he looked terrible against Columbus

 

[ottomaddox]

People always try to be brilliant with these threads but reality is there is almost no forward debate and No Thornton is not supplanting Kerfoot or he'd have been moved to free up Cap.

99%

Mikhy-Taveres-Marner
Hyman-Matthew-Nylander
Robertson-Kerfoot-Simmonds
Everyone Else-Thornton-Spezza

The real debate is the the bottom 3. Dangle did a good talk on this where they basically all agreed anyone but the kids could end up in any of the bottom spots depending on camp, which I kind of agree with. The Muzzin partner is the big question. Most of the experts seem to think Timmy and Sandin are not in the conversation at all. It sounds like its Dermott or Lehtonen's job to lose.

No one is "trying to be brilliant". People have their opinions and preferences. I think there's no harm in that. What I do take issue with is when someone becomes sanctimonious after listening to 1 podcast about the potential line ups.

Of course it's not up to you and I or the Podcasters out there. Training camp will shed a lot of light on this subject. Who knows how ready our veterans will be, or perhaps Dermott takes a step back and Sandin a step forward.

If you have a close connection to Keefe, then do tell ok.

 

[Patmac40]

Kerfoot was easily one of our best defensive forwards in the top-9 the whole year, maybe the best outside of Matthews and Marner. He doesn't look flashy but is a solidly effective player. Most definitely is a third-liner at this point but Thornton is probably a 2nd/3rd line tweener still with upside.

Thornton is likely still a bit better on draws but Kerfoot's speed is a big asset up the middle. Maybe a lineup of the following will lead to a pretty productive 3rd line who can defend and create chances the other way:

Hyman - Matthews - Marner
Mikheyev - Tavares - Nylander
Robertson - Kerfoot - Thornton (taking most draws)
Vesey/Barabanov/Whomever - Spezza - Simmonds

or we go completely into my fantasy of:

Thornton - Matthews - Marner
Mikheyev - Tavares - Nylander
Robertson - Kerfoot - Hyman
Vesey/Barabanov/Whomever - Spezza - Simmonds

I'd love to see Thornton with Matthews and Marner a lot this year.

And since I'm already typing I might as well include my defensive guesses at this point:

Rielly - Brodie
Muzzin - Lehtonen
Dermott - Holl
Bogo

I'm so excited to see Lehtonen over here.

The issue with the above roster is without any extra forwards and one extra D (Bogo), there's $500k of cap space so I'm still wondering if a move to free up salary or pick up LTIR is in the works.

 

[al secord]

they tried to trade Kerfoot but no one wanted him

Breaking news here, folks.

 

[Magic Man]

Good Centers are valued highly, kerfoot produced like a low end 3rc line center and had injury concerns. His production was not up to his pay. Big Joe is only slower than kerfoot but he still possess higher skill in terms of playmaking and being able to make smart high IQ plays. He will get games as the 3C with kerfoot at the wing.

We dealt kap+AJ simply b/c the kapanen deal was a no brainers and kerfoot wasnt bringing a piece as good as hallinder let alone the 15th pick and the AJ deal we needed space and we choose to make that the AJ deal since we had Robertson as a safety valve with dubas really liking Joey Anderson.

Kerfoot value is at an all time low and we are trying to rehab it and see what type of player he really is

I think another year for Kerfoot, reducing the years from 3 to 2 and if he was to have a bit more success his value shoots up a bit. They could use him this year too with some slower forwards up front, he helps to create some balance that way. I think with raises coming for Andersen or a new goalie and Hyman while intending to upgrade in the off-season he is very likely to be traded before the expansion draft for young exempt assets. They could do the 4-4 protection and expose Engvall, Holl and Hutchinson. Likely losing Holl, saving more cap space for off-season spending.

Johnsson was traded for a prospect viewed higher by the organization than a 2nd rd. pick. They sold low, they may on Kerfoot too next year. But, they got some value of significance back in exchange. It's tight for some with the cap not moving up.

 

[Buds17]

Some of the TV guys suggest Thornton and Spezza might alternate a bit but I don't see that. I can't speak for everyone but I have grown quite fond of Spezza and I want him treated right.

Spezza's first season as a Leaf was definitely a good one. Hopefully he can continue to turn back the clock. I assume any talk of alternating such players would be based on a compressed schedule.

 

[IPS]

Thornton is likely going to supplant Kerfoot. Kerfoot is not a good enough center, and I imagine he'll be moved all over the place to justify: 1. His salary 2. Trading Kadri for him. Based on 1 year with TOR and a play in series Kerfoot has proven that if he plays 3rd line C for TOR in the post season he'll be eaten alive.

I'd bet money that he won't. Kerfoot's easily a better player than ancient Thornton.