Update: Conflicting info on Holland. (He still might return.)

[Run the Jewels]

When you're bad at drafting defenseman, you overpay for Ericsson and Dekeyser. Because you have no replacements in your pipeline. It happened with both of them.

If you draft well you can let those guys walk. We could not.

Yeah, as sobering as this sounds right now Ericsson and DeKeyser were our best shot at a top pairing set of defensemen to replace Kronwall's eventual slide in performance. Under Babcock DeKeyser hit 30 points so it was at least somewhat reasonable to expect him to be a half decent point producer. Like everything else his performance has plummeted under Blashill.

 

[Fil Larkmanthanasiou]

Yeah, as sobering as this sounds right now Ericsson and DeKeyser were our best shot at a top pairing set of defensemen to replace Kronwall's eventual slide in performance. Under Babcock DeKeyser hit 30 points so it was at least somewhat reasonable to expect him to be a half decent point producer. Like everything else his performance has plummeted under Blashill.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

But he was signed to that deal in November of 2013, nearly 8 months before he would have hit free agency. No rush was necessary to leap into a 6 year commitment on a depth guy. Based on the 2014 class of free agent defensemen, they would have been much better off by letting things unfold until July, and either making a play on a bigger name, or finding a warm body to take his place for less commitment. But at a minimum, let it play out a little longer to weigh your options.

Having a less than stellar pipeline doesn't mean you cough up a golden parachute half a season before the clock even really starts ticking.

They did make a play for a bigger name. For an equivalent name. For a lesser name. They got told to pound sand by all of them.... and that was simply trying to move on from Quincey.

They offered in that offseason

-Niskanen
-Boyle
-Robidas
-Gilbert

They were flat out told no before even considering asking by Stralman.

They had to go back to Kyle Quincey who blew ****ing chunks his first two years back here and offer him a 750k RAISE and a couple years to get him to stay. If they had to try to replace two defensemen in that offseason, I can't even imagine how badly they'd have been bent over.

 

[ShelbyZ]

They had to go back to Kyle Quincey who blew ****ing chunks his first two years back here and offer him a 750k RAISE and a couple years to get him to stay. If they had to try to replace two defensemen in that offseason, I can't even imagine how badly they'd have been bent over.

Is it odd that I see an alternate universe where Holland lets both Ericsson and Quincey walk, and Ericsson goes to another team and plays well. Then the same fans who roast Holland for Ericsson's extension in real life, roast him for not extending him in the alternate...

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Is it odd that I see an alternate universe where Holland lets both Ericsson and Quincey walk, and Ericsson goes to another team and plays well. Then the same fans who roast Holland for Ericsson's extension in real life, roast him for not extending him in the alternate...

I mean, if not for Ericsson running into a hip impingement (I don't know where that was from) and a shattered hand (from a cheap shot slash), he doesn't spin sideways for a couple years. He had two big injuries that hit him directly where they'd do the most damage to him. He was a bona-fide middle pairing guy when they signed him and he and Kronwall helped keep the top line afloat, even if he wasn't necessarily a top pairing D.

Ericsson is a much better player than he is ever given credit for being. That's not to say he's a stud, but before two big time injuries, he was a very steady player.

He's been bit, like most of the Wings recently, by playing above his station in life.

To end, Ericsson probably didn't deserve 6 yr, 4.25M. That was too rich a contract. But the Wings could not afford to let him walk because they had nobody ready to carry that load and frankly, they've needed to find a top pairing guy to replace Lidstrom/Rafalski far more than fixing whatever the difference between Ericsson and Stuart was.

6 yr, 4.25M for a completely UFA D is a good price for a top 4 guy which Ericsson was at the time. He was a safe pick to fill a role while they tried to improve in a bigger way in another spot.

 

[ShelbyZ]

6 yr, 4.25M for a completely UFA D is a good price for a top 4 guy which Ericsson was at the time. He was a safe pick to fill a role while they tried to improve in a bigger way in another spot.

X2. In the same UFA class that Ericsson was supposed to enter, Brook Orpik got $5.5M AAV for 5 years coming off a 13 point season.

 

[Claypool]

If five years is the statute of limitations, then this franchise hasn't ever done anything that anybody should care about. I don't think that's a road that ends well.

Let people vent how they like, sheriff.

The franchise has moved on and is going down a different road now. Bringing up contracts that were signed a half decade ago is pretty pointless. Do you want Holland to issue a public apology? Will that make you feel better?

 

[jkutswings]

The franchise has moved on and is going down a different road now. Bringing up contracts that were signed a half decade ago is pretty pointless. Do you want Holland to issue a public apology? Will that make you feel better?

Moved on in their WORDS? Yes.
Moved on in their ACTIONS? TBD.

Retaining the same front office (and possibly the same coaching staff) doesn't exactly scream change.

Have the last two trade deadlines included smart moves? Yes, and kudos to them for doing so. But if they're really changing gears into rebuild mode, it will take more than that to show a truly different direction.

Like not offering Green more than 1 year (or not bringing him back at all, and targeting a mix of younger free agents and prospects on the blue line, or, better still, trading a guy like AA for a decent young defenseman). And finding a goaltender that could stick around for awhile, without breaking the bank, so they can flip Howard next year like they did with Mrazek this year. Things like that, to show definite priority of future over present.

 

[Nut Upstrom]

Moved on in their WORDS? Yes.
Moved on in their ACTIONS? TBD.

Retaining the same front office (and possibly the same coaching staff) doesn't exactly scream change.

Have the last two trade deadlines included smart moves? Yes, and kudos to them for doing so. But if they're really changing gears into rebuild mode, it will take more than that to show a truly different direction.

Like not offering Green more than 1 year (or not bringing him back at all, and targeting a mix of younger free agents and prospects on the blue line, or, better still, trading a guy like AA for a decent young defenseman). And finding a goaltender that could stick around for awhile, without breaking the bank, so they can flip Howard next year like they did with Mrazek this year. Things like that, to show definite priority of future over present.

I totally agree with you. When I say why dwell on the past I certainly do not mean to imply that the past should be forgotten or that anyone deserves a free pass for mistakes made repeatedly. It seems like the organization's focus has shifted these last two seasons and hopefully, going forward, Holland continues down the road he has been on recently. I like your ideas (shipping off Howard and dangling AA for defensive help) better than the trade Nyquist talk I've been reading. Of course when shipping off an AA or a Nyquist the return will ultimately factor into my support of those moves, as I feel those are two very good top six players.

As for Howard, get what you can for him, getting a replacement goalie should not be hard, in fact, I've been thinking about Raanta for a while now.
Antti Raanta is 28, a few years older than I had initially thought, but what about him? He's UFA after this season and it looks like AZ has offered him a multi-year deal estimated to be worth around 4-4.5 per. If he hits free agency I think that Holland should offer him 5 per over four years and then unload Howard for whatever he can get. Raanta's looked to be a legit starter this season, though he's had injury issues; his numbers finishing out the season have been among the league's best - on a very bad team.

Coyotes have offered Antti Raanta multiyear contract extension

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I totally agree with you. When I say why dwell on the past I certainly do not mean to imply that the past should be forgotten or that anyone deserves a free pass for mistakes made repeatedly. It seems like the organization's focus has shifted these last two seasons and hopefully, going forward, Holland continues down the road he has been on recently. I like your ideas (shipping off Howard and dangling AA for defensive help) better than the trade Nyquist talk I've been reading. Of course when shipping off an AA or a Nyquist the return will ultimately factor into my support of those moves, as I feel those are two very good top six players.

As for Howard, get what you can for him, getting a replacement goalie should not be hard, in fact, I've been thinking about Raanta for a while now.
Antti Raanta is 28, a few years older than I had initially thought, but what about him? He's UFA after this season and it looks like AZ has offered him a multi-year deal estimated to be worth around 4-4.5 per. If he hits free agency I think that Holland should offer him 5 per over four years and then unload Howard for whatever he can get. Raanta's looked to be a legit starter this season, though he's had injury issues; his numbers finishing out the season have been among the league's best - on a very bad team.

[URL=' have offered Antti Raanta multiyear contract extension[/URL]

That contract would be a mistake before the ink dried on it. Difference between him at 5M and Howard at 5.3M is not worth it. I don't think you gain a whole lot by flip-flopping the two.

I'd rather take a run at a guy like Grubauer (maybe not him because his value is sky high and he'll get far more than he's worth also). But more a Brian Elliot-like okay goalie you can pay 2.5-3M for a year or two to be your starter to give Larsson or Petruzelli or whoever time. There is no need to sign a guy like a Raanta unless you're getting a steal of a deal.

 

[Redder Winger]

X2. In the same UFA class that Ericsson was supposed to enter, Brook Orpik got $5.5M AAV for 5 years coming off a 13 point season.

Brooks Orpik was a defensive monster--as every Red Wings fan knows.
Ericsson has never played that style

 

[Nut Upstrom]

That contract would be a mistake before the ink dried on it. Difference between him at 5M and Howard at 5.3M is not worth it. I don't think you gain a whole lot by flip-flopping the two.

I'd rather take a run at a guy like Grubauer (maybe not him because his value is sky high and he'll get far more than he's worth also). But more a Brian Elliot-like okay goalie you can pay 2.5-3M for a year or two to be your starter to give Larsson or Petruzelli or whoever time. There is no need to sign a guy like a Raanta unless you're getting a steal of a deal.

Are you saying he's no better than Howard or is salary your only reason for not wanting Raanta? If so I get that, I suppose we should get all of our RFAs signed before breaking the bank on a goalie; but I think Raanta for four years would be steady and stable and would come at a reasonable price, provided we have the room to fit him.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Moved on in their WORDS? Yes.
Moved on in their ACTIONS? TBD.

Retaining the same front office (and possibly the same coaching staff) doesn't exactly scream change.

Have the last two trade deadlines included smart moves? Yes, and kudos to them for doing so. But if they're really changing gears into rebuild mode, it will take more than that to show a truly different direction.

Like not offering Green more than 1 year (or not bringing him back at all, and targeting a mix of younger free agents and prospects on the blue line, or, better still, trading a guy like AA for a decent young defenseman). And finding a goaltender that could stick around for awhile, without breaking the bank, so they can flip Howard next year like they did with Mrazek this year. Things like that, to show definite priority of future over present.

I would say that trading Tatar is a pretty clear signal that they've moved on. They just signed him to a 5.3M deal for 4 years. They clearly intended for him to be a part of their plans going forward. And they dealt him for picks.

It is pretty clear that until they fire Ken Holland you will not give them any credit for forward looking behavior or if you do, it will always carry a heavy caveat. Instead of pissing and moaning about things Holland hasn't done yet (anything to do with Green at the FA market), things he should do (first, any young FAs are either busts from other teams, are RFAs and so come with a high comp cost, or are simply not otherwise available. Next Hronek, Saarijavi, Cholowski, Holway, etc. The Wings ARE going for younger D prospects), and things that require the explicit involvement of another team (Another team has to want to put up with AA's lackadaisical play as well as give you a good young defenseman, because you'd be pissed as hell if AA was traded for a guy who is another team's Danny DeKeyser equivalent).

And why on earth do they need to find a goaltender to hang around for awhile? Aren't they supposed to suck for a couple years? What does it matter if they have a good goalie? Decent enough goalies to win you a title with a good team in front of them are a dime a dozen. I wouldn't allocate more than 4-5M to the goalie position in total between starter and backup if our team is just gonna be garbage for a year or two. You can flip Howard as long as you have a warm body that can stand in net. Sign ****ing Vesa Toskala from Timbuktu for all I care. The difference between a fantastic goalie and an average one is about 30-40 goals a year. In seasons where it is pretty clear it doesn't matter how good or bad you are... why spend more than you have to, to earn 5 more points that will hold you back?

 

[Redder Winger]

When you're bad at drafting defenseman, you overpay for Ericsson and Dekeyser. Because you have no replacements in your pipeline. It happened with both of them.

If you draft well you can let those guys walk. We could not.

You do not overpay because you suck at drafting.
You overpay if you suck at contracts.

Stop making shit up.

You don't need a pipeline to replace Ericsson. He's a dime-a-dozen NHL defenseman.
You need a pipeline to replace Lidstrom or Kronwall.
Not dime-a-dozen NHLers.

Nick Schultz signed for $1.25M the next year. If Ericsson doesn't doesn't want play for $2M or $2,5M, fine. Go get the money on the market.
We sign Nick Schultz instead.
And what's the difference to us?
Virtually nothing.

 

[Frk It]

You do not overpay because you suck at drafting.
You overpay if you suck at contracts.

Stop making **** up.

You don't need a pipeline to replace Ericsson. He's a dime-a-dozen NHL defenseman.
You need a pipeline to replace Lidstrom or Kronwall.
Not dime-a-dozen NHLers.

Nick Schultz signed for $1.25M the next year. If Ericsson doesn't doesn't want play for $2M or $2,5M, fine. Go get the money on the market.
We sign Nick Schultz instead.
And what's the difference to us?
Virtually nothing.

I was just saying I think that factored into it.

If you look at that Ericsson contract thread I was not a fan of it when it happened, so you’re preaching to the choir.

I’m over it in 2018 though.

 

[HIFE]

...Dekeyser is a legit #4, if you ask me.
Ericsson a #5 (with Lilja being a 6)
Green a #4 or #5
Kronwall is probably a 5/6 at this point.
XO is probably a #6.
Dakey is a #5.
Jensen and Hicketts aren't NHLers.

The only guys I'd pay are Dekeyser and Green.
And Green isn't worth resigning at his price. Dekeyser should be paid what Ericsson makes. Ericsson shouldn't make more than $2M.

But our GM doesn;t know how to value defenseman.
That's why after 4 years of making $4M in Detroit, Kyle Quincey went out on the market and was shocked to find nobody wanted to pay him $1,5M and why he's in the AHL now...

Thank you. This is so much closer to the real picture. Holland's personnel choices are always the easy, lazy move. Ericsson was Swedish, he was just there. Our management team is terrible at valuing players, and every single one is at least slightly overpaid. Last summer the org. and media rambling off about Daley being a 2nd pairing guy is another example of their delusion.

The exaggeration I read here are posts grasping at straws to make excuses for a myriad of bland and thoughtless moves. News flash... this team is not very good, and it's not because of our rookies. I'm not enthusiastic witnessing the same type of mismanagement the next 1, 3, or 5 years.

 

[Redder Winger]

I was just saying I think that factored into it.

If you look at that Ericsson contract thread I was not a fan of it when it happened, so you’re preaching to the choir.

I’m over it in 2018 though.

Yeah, I'm over it to.
Until people start rationalizing or defending it when saying why "Kenny hasn't been bad."

 

[Pavels Dog]

LOL.
So was Matthieu Dandenual or Dmitri Bykov worth a 6 year deal at $4M a year when they played next to Nicklas Lidstrom?
Seriously, Pavel's Dog, open your eyes.
The obvious point is this - playing on the top pairing doesn't mean you're worth money. It could be that the coach is trying to spread out talent. It could be the coach is trying to appease his #1 Defenseman with the partner he wants. it could be the coach is a ****ing moron.

Points per game
Victor Hedman .58
Jonathan Ericsson .20
Andreas Lilja .15

It could be that he was on the top pairing because he was literally the only guy beside Kronwall that could handle it without falling apart. Kronwall was never Lidstrom, he couldn’t carry a Bykov or Dandenault. He couldn’t carry a Smith, Kindl or anyone else we had. Rewrite history if you wish but some of us know how much of a stud E looked like and how good he actually was for a while.

But I guess there are two ways you can look at the realities of being a GM; either by saying ”player X is mediocre, should not be re-signed no matter what”, the other being ”I wish we didn’t have to re-sign player X but we have no one better to replace him with”. The first is quite unrealistic. Miss out on Suter, Lids retire, Stuart leaves, Raffi retire.. and refuse to sign one of your top remaining D who is in his prime? Doesn’t happen. The contract was unfavorable because E had a fantastic bargaining position and Holland was desperate.

 

[jkutswings]

The contract was unfavorable because E had a fantastic bargaining position and Holland was desperate.

And how many defensemen did the Wings draft in the years leading up to that moment? Much of that desperation was their own fault, due to poor planning.

Nobody replaces Lidstrom. But if you KNOW that your best defenseman is year to year for retirement, and it's going to leave a gaping cavern of a hole in your roster...stop drafting so many dang middling forwards, and have at least a decent pipeline of several defensive candidates. They're STILL suffering because of that imbalance, nearly a decade after when they should have begun a higher priority on taking blue liners.

 

[Frk It]

 

[jkutswings]

Then let's hope Detroit reaches 88 miles per hour on lottery night. Dahlin would easily add 1.21 gigawatts of juice to this team.

 

[kliq]

Then let's hope Detroit reaches 88 miles per hour on lottery night. Dahlin would easily add 1.21 gigawatts of juice to this team.

1.21 GIGAWATTS!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[jkutswings]

1.21 GIGAWATTS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe Dahlin would like Tatar's old number:

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Are you saying he's no better than Howard or is salary your only reason for not wanting Raanta? If so I get that, I suppose we should get all of our RFAs signed before breaking the bank on a goalie; but I think Raanta for four years would be steady and stable and would come at a reasonable price, provided we have the room to fit him.

On this point, it's a little of a combo meal.

I don't think Raanta is as good as his stats look going forward. I mean, Howie in 3 of his first four full starter seasons had stats on this same level. Raanta has been a career backup and has one very good season. I don't want to pay a guy because of one very good season. Also, I certainly don't want to pay only $300,000 less for a guy when I've been complaining up and down that a guy with a similar pedigree getting 5.3M is a terrible, awful deal that I need to trade for any return I can get.

I'd much rather sign Brian Elliot or equivalent for 2.5M and get a .910, 2.8-3.0 GAA goalie for a bad team than jump on Raanta right now. I mean, Scott Darling had good numbers in Chicago covering for Crawford and now he's trash in Carolina. Antti Niemi and Kari Lehtonen both had pretty good numbers and they were both part of that two headed monster of **** that Dallas ran out there.

In other words, there will be an Antti Raanta out on the market in a few years when our team is more squared away and we have more of the pieces that we want. Goalies are kind of like QBs in fantasy football. You either want to grab the very best out there or you want to focus on everything else and grab a good one later. The variance between a good skater and bad skater is far far larger than the variance between a good and a bad goalie.

E: And don't get me wrong, I love Antti Raanta. He's actually been a favorite of mine. My beer league team had three goalies on it and the "starter" (a Swedish girl) loved Lundqvist. I was the starter beforehand and was the backup after she joined. I was Raanta. And we had a guy who was just learning. He was Magnus Hellberg. I just do not see a material difference between the two that I'm looking to trade Howard for whatever I can get for him and signing a substantially similar player for substantially similar money.

 

[Redder Winger]

The contract was unfavorable because E had a fantastic bargaining position and Holland was desperate.

There's the fiction.
Holland always has the negotiating advantage with mediocre players.
ALWAYS.
He just acts like he doesn't. And some fans support every bad move he makes, making up nonsense.

Ken Holland is over a barrel if a young Datsyuk or Zetterberg or Lidstrom demand the the moon.

He's never over a barrel when a run-of-the-mill defenseman demands a lifetime contract.
Never.