Update: Conflicting info on Holland. (He still might return.)

[Pavels Dog]

Right.
Which is why you think he's untradeable.

Ericsson is way overpaid and way overextended.

He's OK as a third pairing guy. On his best days he masquerades as a #4.
He should never have been paid more than $2M for more than 2 or 3 years.

If some other team wants to pay it, great. There's no reason to pay that guy long term at that rate.

You have to understand that on the UFA market, third pairing guys are available every year on the cheap.
Jonathan Ericsson is Andreas Lilja

There is no discussion to be had when you use that much hyperbole. Ericsson got his contract when he was actually doing alright on the top pairing of a playoff team. And he wasn’t carried by an elite #1 either. ~4 mil was right on the money, only the term was too much.
Ericsson is Lilja, just like Hedman is Ericsson.

I'm struggling to see our problem on defense,
Green is a big offensive Dman.
Dekeyser and Ericsson are legit top 4 guys
Daley is a top four guy.

What am I missing? Why do keep saying we suck?

Green should be a 2nd/3rd pairing PP specialist.
DD is 2nd pairing. E a #4-5. Basically everyone else 3rd pairing only. Very few with above average puck/offensive-skills.

No legit top pairing D doesn’t mean all our D-men are bottom pairing or replacement caliber. If that was the case we would have finished bottom 3 multiple times by now.

 

[SoupGuru]

I'm thinking Mr I and Holland had many talks about creating a sense of family in the Red Wings. You hear echoes of it all the time. I think they wanted to invest in players and expected loyalty and perseverance in return. They had their rentals over the years, sure. But there's a core that they've tried to give a lot of stability to. Will guys give you more on the ice if they know the org has your back? Dunno...

Right or wrong, I think that's what they were after.

 

[kliq]

I'm thinking Mr I and Holland had many talks about creating a sense of family in the Red Wings. You hear echoes of it all the time. I think they wanted to invest in players and expected loyalty and perseverance in return. They had their rentals over the years, sure. But there's a core that they've tried to give a lot of stability to. Will guys give you more on the ice if they know the org has your back? Dunno...

Right or wrong, I think that's what they were after.

100% agree with this. Unfortunately, if you even say this you will get blasted for being a "Holland apologist".

 

[WingedWheel1987]

If you are going to chime in with your typical cynical approach, can you at least read what was read? I get you are playing the gimmick, but at least know what's going on.

The argument posed by Redder was that the Wings should have traded E or not re-signed him the year he was going to become a UFA. I agree with that, but said:

"They were never going to trade E. At the time they viewed him as a Top 2 D-man and had just lost Stuart/Lidstrom the year before. Sure in hindsight that would have been great, but that one never had a shot at happening."

My point was that after losing Lidstrom, Stuart and really Rafalski as well, they were not going to also lose E when he was their #2 d-man.

I never said it was a good contract, what I said was that in hindsight, of course they would have been better off moving him. I did also point out how when reading the thread from the time, most fans were good with it. Read it if you don't believe me.

Or just say

"Good lord...

Cause locking up a 29 year old stay at home defenseman with almost zero offense for six years is super smart."

That really adds to the convo, its like talking to Frank Grimes 2.0.

Rationalize it how ever you want. The fact that the Wings felt they had no choice but to give Ericsson such a terrible contract says it all.

There was zero hindsight required to see that giving Ericsson that contract was a mistake. It's just common sense. Something this organization has lacked for a very long time.

 

[kliq]

Rationalize it how ever you want. The fact that the Wings felt they had no choice but to give Ericsson such a terrible contract says it all.

There was zero hindsight required to see that giving Ericsson that contract was a mistake. It's just common sense. Something this organization has lacked for a very long time.

Not "rationalizing" anything, I said it was a bad contract. Again, why don't you actually read what was said. Or you can just chime in randomly with cynical comments as if you know it all, I don't care.

 

[Claypool]

Rationalize it how ever you want. The fact that the Wings felt they had no choice but to give Ericsson such a terrible contract says it all.

There was zero hindsight required to see that giving Ericsson that contract was a mistake. It's just common sense. Something this organization has lacked for a very long time.

That was almost five years ago. No one cares.

 

[theYman]

Ericsson was pretty much viewed as Stuart replacement. 2nd pair defensive guy.

Are you shitting me? He couldn't even hold Stuart's jockstrap. Ericsson was to replace Lilja not Stuart. Did you forget about him?

 

[Winger98]

Ericsson was, and is, a far better D than Lilja.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Are you ****ting me? He couldn't even hold Stuart's jockstrap. Ericsson was to replace Lilja not Stuart. Did you forget about him?

This is complete BS.

 

[jkutswings]

That was almost five years ago. No one cares.

If five years is the statute of limitations, then this franchise hasn't ever done anything that anybody should care about. I don't think that's a road that ends well.

Let people vent how they like, sheriff.

 

[Oddbob]

If five years is the statute of limitations, then this franchise hasn't ever done anything that anybody should care about. I don't think that's a road that ends well.

Let people vent how they like, sheriff.

True enough, but do the same repeated over and over and over again arguments need to be continuously brought up?

 

[Henkka]

What same they are currently doing than 5 years ago?

 

[jkutswings]

True enough, but do the same repeated over and over and over again arguments need to be continuously brought up?

That's fair. I don't blame people for getting tired of the number of dead horses that still get thrashed. It was more the element of, 'what you say has no value', instead of, 'I completely disagree with you', or, 'we've seen this movie before'.

Some fans are still very upset at the perception that this franchise has spent years clinging to what was, instead of embracing what is. Others are tired of hearing about the past, and just want to move on. Both fair perspectives. But neither camp has the right to be completely dismissive of the other.

 

[Red Stanley]

That's fair. I don't blame people for getting tired of the number of dead horses that still get thrashed. It was more the element of, 'what you say has no value', instead of, 'I completely disagree with you', or, 'we've seen this movie before'.

Some fans are still very upset at the perception that this franchise has spent years clinging to what was, instead of embracing what is. Others are tired of hearing about the past, and just want to move on. Both fair perspectives. But neither camp has the right to be completely dismissive of the other.

Well said, but if you think about it, half of sports fandom is built on legacy, which includes, but is not limited to, championships. We happen to be a part of a fan base that has the luxury of looking back to the not-so-distant past with pride. Individual mileage may vary.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

In terms of the Ericsson deal I remember thinking it was more term than I would've liked, but at the time wasn't everyone not named Kronwall about to be a free agent at the end of that season or next?

I think it was a move by Holland to try and add some stability to the blueline.

EDIT: Quincey and Colaiacovo's contract were up at the end of that season. Dekeyser was an RFA. Smith's was up the next season, which left Kindl, Lashoff and Kronwall.

So some young still relatively unknown quantities, some old guys you're not gonna re-sign (Cola) and a decent but unspectacular UFA in Quincey. It was a good time for Ericsson to be negotiating his next contract.

 

[Redder Winger]

There is no discussion to be had when you use that much hyperbole. Ericsson got his contract when he was actually doing alright on the top pairing of a playoff team. And he wasn’t carried by an elite #1 either. ~4 mil was right on the money, only the term was too much.
Ericsson is Lilja, just like Hedman is Ericsson.

LOL.
So was Matthieu Dandenual or Dmitri Bykov worth a 6 year deal at $4M a year when they played next to Nicklas Lidstrom?
Seriously, Pavel's Dog, open your eyes.
The obvious point is this - playing on the top pairing doesn't mean you're worth money. It could be that the coach is trying to spread out talent. It could be the coach is trying to appease his #1 Defenseman with the partner he wants. it could be the coach is a f***ing moron.

Points per game
Victor Hedman .58
Jonathan Ericsson .20
Andreas Lilja .15

Two of these guys are in the same balllpark.
Neither of them are named Hedman.

In the grand scheme of things, Jonatha Ericsson, despite all the playing time in the world, has been a horrible producer.
The weird thing is, we've all seen Ericsson look decent jumping into the play. We've seen the breakaway pass. We know he's huge and we've seen him be physical.

But he doesn't do any of this with any regularity.
And defensively he's always been iffy at best - despite being a 6'5 guy who looks like he should be a defensive defenseman.
He was a forward until he was 17 - and I don't think he ever really learned how to play defense.

Green should be a 2nd/3rd pairing PP specialist.
DD is 2nd pairing. E a #4-5. Basically everyone else 3rd pairing only. Very few with above average puck/offensive-skills.

No legit top pairing D doesn’t mean all our D-men are bottom pairing or replacement caliber. If that was the case we would have finished bottom 3 multiple times by now.

Dekeyser is a legit #4, if you ask me.
Ericsson a #5 (with Lilja being a 6)
Green a #4 or #5
Kronwall is probably a 5/6 at this point.
XO is probably a #6.
Dakey is a #5.
Jensen and Hicketts aren't NHLers.

The only guys I'd pay are Dekeyser and Green.
And Green isn't worth resigning at his price. Dekeyser should be paid what Ericsson makes. Ericsson shouldn't make more than $2M.

But our GM doesn;t know how to value defenseman.
That's why after 4 years of making $4M in Detroit, Kyle Quincey went out on the market and was shocked to find nobody wanted to pay him $1,5M and why he's in the AHL now.

FYI ... Kyle Quincey is younger than Jonathan Ericsson.
I think JFE is slightly better than KFQ because Quincey's skating deteriorated faster.

By the way.
Points per game
KFQ .27
JFE .20

So Quincey to Hedman is the better comparison, PD.

 

[Redder Winger]

If you are going to chime in with your typical cynical approach, can you at least read what was read? I get you are playing the gimmick, but at least know what's going on.

The argument posed by Redder was that the Wings should have traded E or not re-signed him the year he was going to become a UFA. I agree with that, but said:

"They were never going to trade E. At the time they viewed him as a Top 2 D-man and had just lost Stuart/Lidstrom the year before. Sure in hindsight that would have been great, but that one never had a shot at happening."

My point was that after losing Lidstrom, Stuart and really Rafalski as well, they were not going to also lose E when he was their #2 d-man.

I never said it was a good contract, what I said was that in hindsight, of course they would have been better off moving him. I did also point out how when reading the thread from the time, most fans were good with it. Read it if you don't believe me.

Or just say

"Good lord...

Cause locking up a 29 year old stay at home defenseman with almost zero offense for six years is super smart."

That really adds to the convo, its like talking to Frank Grimes 2.0.

You're being a little deceptive, Kliq.
Lidstrom was two years gone.
Rafalski was even moreso.
Stuart had just left, but he was clearly as shell of himself by the end in Detroit.

You had already signed Dekeyser.
You had Kindl coming off his best year as a Red Wing.
Brendan Smith was a hot shot kid.
Kyle Quincey was signed.
In Grand Rapids, Sproul had just completed a good rookie year. The Wings also had hopes for OUellet, Backman, Marchenko and Jensen.

There was ZERO need for a 6 year contract to a mediocre defenseman who'd never topped 15 points in his career.

And here we are again - another 13 point season for Jonny Ericsson - in a season he's actually not looked awful as he has in the past.

It's foolish to pay a man to be something he's not.
It doesn't matter if you don't have a real #2 defenseman. You can't pay someone to be something aren't.
It's a mistake.
It's worse than a mistake, though.
It's arrogance.
It's the old, "I drafted him, and he's been here, and the guys before him did it, so he they're gone, and he's going to step in and do it" hubris.
It's the reason why Abdelkader and Helm have their contracts.

Holland arrogantly believed that somehow, these guys, since he picked them, were going to be guys to get it done.

 

[Frk It]

You're being a little deceptive, Kliq.
Lidstrom was two years gone.
Rafalski was even moreso.
Stuart had just left, but he was clearly as shell of himself by the end in Detroit.

You had already signed Dekeyser.
You had Kindl coming off his best year as a Red Wing.
Brendan Smith was a hot shot kid.
Kyle Quincey was signed.
In Grand Rapids, Sproul had just completed a good rookie year. The Wings also had hopes for OUellet, Backman, Marchenko and Jensen.

There was ZERO need for a 6 year contract to a mediocre defenseman who'd never topped 15 points in his career.

And here we are again - another 13 point season for Jonny Ericsson - in a season he's actually not looked awful as he has in the past.

It's foolish to pay a man to be something he's not.
It doesn't matter if you don't have a real #2 defenseman. You can't pay someone to be something aren't.
It's a mistake.
It's worse than a mistake, though.
It's arrogance.
It's the old, "I drafted him, and he's been here, and the guys before him did it, so he they're gone, and he's going to step in and do it" hubris.
It's the reason why Abdelkader and Helm have their contracts.

Holland arrogantly believed that somehow, these guys, since he picked them, were going to be guys to get it done.

When you're bad at drafting defenseman, you overpay for Ericsson and Dekeyser. Because you have no replacements in your pipeline. It happened with both of them.

If you draft well you can let those guys walk. We could not.

 

[Nut Upstrom]

LOL.
So was Matthieu Dandenual or Dmitri Bykov worth a 6 year deal at $4M a year when they played next to Nicklas Lidstrom?
Seriously, Pavel's Dog, open your eyes.
The obvious point is this - playing on the top pairing doesn't mean you're worth money. It could be that the coach is trying to spread out talent. It could be the coach is trying to appease his #1 Defenseman with the partner he wants. it could be the coach is a ****ing moron.

In the grand scheme of things, Jonatha Ericsson, despite all the playing time in the world, has been a horrible producer.
The weird thing is, we've all seen Ericsson look decent jumping into the play. We've seen the breakaway pass. We know he's huge and we've seen him be physical.

But he doesn't do any of this with any regularity.
And defensively he's always been iffy at best - despite being a 6'5 guy who looks like he should be a defensive defenseman.
He was a forward until he was 17 - and I don't think he ever really learned how to play defense.

Dekeyser is a legit #4, if you ask me.
Ericsson a #5 (with Lilja being a 6)
Green a #4 or #5
Kronwall is probably a 5/6 at this point.
XO is probably a #6.
Dakey is a #5.
Jensen and Hicketts aren't NHLers.

The only guys I'd pay are Dekeyser and Green.
And Green isn't worth resigning at his price. Dekeyser should be paid what Ericsson makes. Ericsson shouldn't make more than $2M.

But our GM doesn;t know how to value defenseman.
That's why after 4 years of making $4M in Detroit, Kyle Quincey went out on the market and was shocked to find nobody wanted to pay him $1,5M and why he's in the AHL now.

FYI ... Kyle Quincey is younger than Jonathan Ericsson.
I think JFE is slightly better than KFQ because Quincey's skating deteriorated faster.

I think Ericsson is an average to bad defense man. I think Ken Holland got bent over, reamed and suckered when he signed Ericsson to that deal. But that is my opinion; showing production numbers will not make that fact. Showing production numbers will not prove that Ericsson is a bad defense man. Who really cares what sort of points a stay at home d-man puts up? I find myself mostly in agreement with you in regards to Ericsson, but some people have other opinions, so give over and let them have their opinions without condescending, belittling or selling your opinion as more valuable simply because you post walls of numbers and repeatedly throw haphazardly worded hissy-fits on the topic.

Everything I bolded in your post is an opinion. Great, you're entitled to those opinions, just as every poster on here is entitled to an opinion that differs from yours and also deserves to be treated with respect regardless of where their opinion needle falls in regards to any topic. The posters here are long-term and informed fans. Over the years we've all watched a lot of hockey and we are all qualified to come to our own conclusion in regards to every team, every player and every situation. Obviously many of those opinions differ, but the art of a dignified conversation between differing view points is totally lost on you.
Anyone who regularly begins a response to a fellow fan with "Bull****" "LOL" "Yawn" "knock it off with this stuff" or any other of your arrogant, snarky intros should probably re-read or record him/herself and realize that being abrasive, rude and loud doesn't lend any weight to your words.
I think it's ridiculous that this needs to be pointed out to a grown up.

 

[njx9]

When you're bad at drafting defenseman, you overpay for Ericsson and Dekeyser. Because you have no replacements in your pipeline. It happened with both of them.

If you draft well you can let those guys walk. We could not.

Were both of those market-value contracts for mid-pair, at best, defensemen? Or could the team have signed a Trevor Daley, at $3.1m instead of a DDK at $5m (I'll be honest, I only glanced at the 2014-15 FA list, so the answer could very well be "no, they couldn't have")? Not drafting well isn't really a great reason to keep around middling players at any conceivable cost when there are, usually, adequate players available in FA.

I should grant that DDK, at 26, might've looked like he could continue to improve.

 

[kliq]

You're being a little deceptive, Kliq.
Lidstrom was two years gone.
Rafalski was even moreso.
Stuart had just left, but he was clearly as shell of himself by the end in Detroit.

You had already signed Dekeyser.
You had Kindl coming off his best year as a Red Wing.
Brendan Smith was a hot shot kid.
Kyle Quincey was signed.
In Grand Rapids, Sproul had just completed a good rookie year. The Wings also had hopes for OUellet, Backman, Marchenko and Jensen.

There was ZERO need for a 6 year contract to a mediocre defenseman who'd never topped 15 points in his career.

And here we are again - another 13 point season for Jonny Ericsson - in a season he's actually not looked awful as he has in the past.

It's foolish to pay a man to be something he's not.
It doesn't matter if you don't have a real #2 defenseman. You can't pay someone to be something aren't.
It's a mistake.
It's worse than a mistake, though.
It's arrogance.
It's the old, "I drafted him, and he's been here, and the guys before him did it, so he they're gone, and he's going to step in and do it" hubris.
It's the reason why Abdelkader and Helm have their contracts.

Holland arrogantly believed that somehow, these guys, since he picked them, were going to be guys to get it done.

Are you under the impression that I liked the signing?

 

[Redder Winger]

Are you under the impression that I liked the signing?

I am.
You seem to be defending it an awful lot.
And you don't have criticism for any of the reasons of those making excuses for it.

 

[Nut Upstrom]

Were both of those market-value contracts for mid-pair, at best, defensemen? Or could the team have signed a Trevor Daley, at $3.1m instead of a DDK at $5m (I'll be honest, I only glanced at the 2014-15 FA list, so the answer could very well be "no, they couldn't have")? Not drafting well isn't really a great reason to keep around middling players at any conceivable cost when there are, usually, adequate players available in FA.

I should grant that DDK, at 26, might've looked like he could continue to improve.

At the time of these signings there was obviously hope and room for improvement from these players - at least in regards to Ericsson and DDK. I remember going to a preseason game in Tampa a year before Ericsson was re-signed and I thought he was far and away the best player on the ice and DDK looked to have a whole lot of promise even into his mid-twenties. I was still not sold on Ericsson's contract, especially the length, but I had to concede that maybe there was more to his game worth gambling on. I admit to having liked DDk's contract at the time and like a few on here, I think if slotted down where he belongs, Dekeyser can be an effective player.

But my opinion now, like many others, is that Holland got these contracts wrong. Lots of us fans got it wrong. Okay, too bad, time to move on maybe?

 

[kliq]

I am.
You seem to be defending it an awful lot.
And you don't have criticism for any of the reasons of those making excuses for it.

To be clear, I didn't.
I am not defending it, I am saying that there was no way he wasnt going to do it.

My true thoughts on it....at the time I was happy we was re-signed, but I didnt like the term.

 

[jkutswings]

When you're bad at drafting defenseman, you overpay for Ericsson and Dekeyser. Because you have no replacements in your pipeline. It happened with both of them.

If you draft well you can let those guys walk. We could not.

But he was signed to that deal in November of 2013, nearly 8 months before he would have hit free agency. No rush was necessary to leap into a 6 year commitment on a depth guy. Based on the 2014 class of free agent defensemen, they would have been much better off by letting things unfold until July, and either making a play on a bigger name, or finding a warm body to take his place for less commitment. But at a minimum, let it play out a little longer to weigh your options.

Having a less than stellar pipeline doesn't mean you cough up a golden parachute half a season before the clock even really starts ticking.