Calgary city council approves arena deal (UPD: new deal upcoming?)

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gstommylee

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Jan 31, 2012
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Could mean nothing if it’s derailed by lawsuits.

At this point i doubt it'll be derailed. Only thing that could be challenged that there was only a week for public period on it but nothing stops a new vote from happening anyways with a longer public comment period.

A week in terms of city council public comment is pretty normal. It could been extended if the city wanted to. The other thing is if there is any environmental challenges.

If someone was threatening to file a lawsuit over it we would have heard it by now.
 
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Mightygoose

Registered User
Nov 5, 2012
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Ajax, ON
Yeah it will be interesting to see if any person or group decide to take legal action and on what grounds.

Is there actually a minimum period of public engagement required? If a week is legally too short, one would think the threat would have been made before the vote.

My understanding, if the council wanted to rescind this deal, it would have to be a 75% super majority. So 12 out of 15, an 8 vote swing from today so not too likely.

At the end of the day, I'm glad a decision was made and not punted down the road again. I think it's a good deal for both parties after this long process.
 

gstommylee

Registered User
Jan 31, 2012
14,390
2,737
Yeah it will be interesting to see if any person or group decide to take legal action and on what grounds.

Is there actually a minimum period of public engagement required? If a week is legally too short, one would think the threat would have been made before the vote.

My understanding, if the council wanted to rescind this deal, it would have to be a 75% super majority. So 12 out of 15, an 8 vote swing from today so not too likely.

At the end of the day, I'm glad a decision was made and not punted down the road again. I think it's a good deal for both parties after this long process.

If its like Seattle there is a required minimal of days i believe a week of public comments when the document is made public. But i have no idea what the council procedures are on the number of public hearings/minimal time for public comments for Calgary. They did have a public hearing on the 22 on it.
 

TheWhiskeyThief

Registered User
Dec 24, 2017
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Local business near key arena economically went down when the Sonics left. Oh btw The soincs leave did force the issue about actually getting a much better building. And its all 100% private cause those were the terms Seattle set from the start. The reason why the sonics left cause the 95 renovations went cheap.

Not to detour a Calgary thread, but who pushed the city on the Key Arena buildout? Ackerley. The stuff they’re doing now should’ve(& could’ve) been done if Ackerley was looking to be a partner with the city and not just a self serving(let’s not forget how he sandbagged the original NHL to Seattle campaign) lunatic.

If not for Ackerley, Seattle would be in a 45th anniversary season, the Sonics would still be in Seattle and the Grizzlies would never have existed.
 

Hoser

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Aug 7, 2005
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https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/nenshi-calgary-arena-event-centre-deal-1.5231915

Nenshi says Calgarians angry over arena deal can have their say ... in 2021

Mayor dismissed concerns over the tight approval timeline, saying arena has been debated for years

Calgary Mayor Naheed Nenshi says if citizens aren't happy with a deal to pay for half of a new home for the Flames, they can register their discontent come election time.

"Ultimately, especially on an issue like this where the public is so split, we really do have to rely on our elected officials to just make a decision," he told the Calgary Eyeopener on Wednesday. "And, you know, in 2021 we have the ultimate plebiscite."

[...]

On Wednesday, the mayor said opponents to the new deal "needed to find a hook on which to oppose it" when questioned about the tight deadline for council to approve. One of those opponents outside of council is the Canadian Taxpayer's Federation. That organization's Alberta director says council has set aside more time for Calgarians to learn about smaller issues.

"You have potential changes to smoking and vaping bylaw, you have a bike sharing pilot program — both of these are relatively small initiatives that received greater scrutiny than a $300 million deal," said Franco Terrazzano. "I mean, people take more time to decide what type of dog or what kind of cat they are going to bring home than Calgary councillors allowed for public scrutiny."

In conversations with family, friends and colleagues I've defended Nenshi's actions numerous times in the past, but now? ****, what an ***hole.... :shakehead His comment is a backhanded one because he's likely not running again in 2021 anyway.
 

PsYcNeT

The No-Fun Zone
Jan 24, 2007
1,145
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Naw he's not wrong. Public input on these things is mostly unnecessary; the general public are idiots and we elect other idiots like Farkas to make these decisions for us.

Unfortunately, the No side was just stocked with councillors too slow to do any research on their own so they couldn't gain any traction.
 

Hoser

Registered User
Aug 7, 2005
1,846
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:shakehead

Awful deal for Calgarians. Announced the same day as $60M in cuts to the City's operating budget this year. Funding for police services, fire department, public transit, public libraries, low-income housing, Heritage Park, Fort Calgary, the science centre, the convention centre and the zoo will be cut, two public pools and a (previously announced) golf course will be closed, and 115 people will be fired.

The closure of the two public pools were announced yesterday: Inglewood and Beltline. See https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/inglewood-pool-close-fight-1.5246471

Arena supporters will allege this is completely unrelated to the new Flames arena, but it absolutely 100% is interrelated. Closing inner-city pools like this—these are the two public pools closest to the new arena site—is a direct result of the City of Calgary using its capital budget to build toys rather than reinvesting back into existing communities.
 

Hoser

Registered User
Aug 7, 2005
1,846
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WELL, WELL, WELL... If it ain't consequences of Calgary City Council's actions.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/flames-calgary-arena-pause-budget-1.5987561

Calgary Flames arena deal paused over budget concerns

The multi-million dollar arena deal between the City of Calgary and the owners of the Flames is being paused over "a difference in the current budget estimate and the program requirements for the facility."

That's according to the Calgary Municipal Land Corporation, the city-owned entity responsible for overseeing the $550 million project.

"Calgary Municipal Land Corporation (CMLC), along with our partners at the City of Calgary, provided an update to council at the April 13th closed meeting on the progress of the Event Centre," reads an emailed statement from CMLC, attributed to its president and CEO Kate Thompson.

"We started this project by developing principles and a program that would create a building that Calgarians would be proud to have in their city, and over the past several months, the team has developed a design to reach that goal."

It says the parties have agreed to pause the project to allow time to "resolve these challenges" related to the budget.

Coun. Jeromy Farkas, who is running for mayor, voted against the deal when it was before council.

"I didn't support the arena projects because of the unrealistic budgets and the very real chance of taxpayers being on the hook for cost overruns," he said Wednesday afternoon.

"And it looks like the budget's already been blown through."

He says if the project is over budget, council has to come clean with Calgarians and that "not one penny more" should be invested in the arena.
 

Bond

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May 10, 2012
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I mean raw material costs are nuts in every industry right now, if they had the foresight of covid happening they would not be on city council, they would be millionaires on a beach trading stocks lol
 

Mike Jones

Registered User
Apr 12, 2007
12,480
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Calgary
As I said on another board Calgarians need to step up and demand that council cancel this steaming pile and force the Flames to build their own private facility. The construction of a 100% private arena will still generate a pile of jobs and us taxpayers benefit from the Flames paying taxes on this facility.

That POS deal should never have been signed in the first place.
 
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K1984

Registered User
Feb 7, 2008
13,294
12,177
I mean raw material costs are nuts in every industry right now, if they had the foresight of covid happening they would not be on city council, they would be millionaires on a beach trading stocks lol

$550M was aggressively low even before COVID. The Oilers arena cost ~ $625M and it was finished 7ish years before the Flames arena was planned to finish. Even if the scope was smaller than Edmonton's, inflation alone would push the price up to similar levels.

$550M didn't hold up to the eyeball test as soon as that was signed. I mean you can do it, but it's going to be as bare bones as it gets when held up against other new NHL facilities.
 

Mike Jones

Registered User
Apr 12, 2007
12,480
2,875
Calgary
$550M was aggressively low even before COVID. The Oilers arena cost ~ $625M and it was finished 7ish years before the Flames arena was planned to finish. Even if the scope was smaller than Edmonton's, inflation alone would push the price up to similar levels.

$550M didn't hold up to the eyeball test as soon as that was signed. I mean you can do it, but it's going to be as bare bones as it gets when held up against other new NHL facilities.
I wonder if someone messed with the numbers to sell the deal to council and taxpayers (Edit: I just got an e-mail from a project management friend of mine agreeing with this guess). Council, for one, definitely did not think this one through or even ensure we were going to get our money back. Something Edmonton really had going to for it when building their arena was that they had things like a realistic ticket tax (I think Edmonton's is 6% compared with Calgary's paltry 2%) to help recover the investment.

Somebody has to pay for this with their jobs. I know he's not running again in the next election but our Mayor, for one, has to resign now.
 
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Hoser

Registered User
Aug 7, 2005
1,846
403
I wonder if someone messed with the numbers to sell the deal to council and taxpayers (Edit: I just got an e-mail from a project management friend of mine agreeing with this guess).

I heard CSEC want the City to pony up another $50M-$100M, and want CMLC (Calgary Municipal Land Corporation, the City-owned developer) booted off the project so that CSEC can hire someone to manage it to their liking.




EDIT: Hahahaha...

CSEC asks for additional $70M and more land for arena deal: Sources

CSEC asks for additional $70M and more land for arena deal: Sources

Development on the city's new event centre, which is expected to be the new home of the Calgary Flames, has been paused over a discrepancy over the budget for the project, officials have confirmed to CTV News.

The Calgary Municipal Land Corporation (CMLC), along with its partners with the City of Calgary, provided an update on the progress of the project planning at a closed-door meeting of council on April 13.

At that meeting, the CMLC said "there is a difference in the current budget estimate and the program requirements for the facility."

There is no official statement about what the differences could be, but sources with direct knowledge of the negotiations, who is not permitted to speak publicly about the details, tells CTV News that the Calgary Sports and Entertainment Corporation (CSEC) requested:

  • An additional $70 million
  • The CMLC removed as a project manager
  • More land allocated for the project
  • Control over traffic around the new rink
 
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Mike Jones

Registered User
Apr 12, 2007
12,480
2,875
Calgary
I heard CSEC want the City to pony up another $50M-$100M, and want CMLC (Calgary Municipal Land Corporation, the City-owned developer) booted off the project so that CSEC can hire someone to manage it to their liking.




EDIT: Hahahaha...

CSEC asks for additional $70M and more land for arena deal: Sources

CSEC asks for additional $70M and more land for arena deal: Sources

Development on the city's new event centre, which is expected to be the new home of the Calgary Flames, has been paused over a discrepancy over the budget for the project, officials have confirmed to CTV News.

The Calgary Municipal Land Corporation (CMLC), along with its partners with the City of Calgary, provided an update on the progress of the project planning at a closed-door meeting of council on April 13.

At that meeting, the CMLC said "there is a difference in the current budget estimate and the program requirements for the facility."

There is no official statement about what the differences could be, but sources with direct knowledge of the negotiations, who is not permitted to speak publicly about the details, tells CTV News that the Calgary Sports and Entertainment Corporation (CSEC) requested:

  • An additional $70 million
  • The CMLC removed as a project manager
  • More land allocated for the project
  • Control over traffic around the new rink

Tragically our council doesn't really believe in transparency and all of this was done at a backroom meeting.

I heard about these later Flames demands on the TV news and it's even more reason to find every means possible to end this pending disaster. This is going to be another Glandale situation and over a million taxpayers are going to pay the price for our council's grotesque incompetence.

Our mayor, for one, needs to resign and it has to be effective immediately. His resignation has to be followed by councilors who supported this disastrous deal and they have to be followed by city staff and managers who also helped make it happen.
 
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CorbeauNoir

Registered User
Apr 13, 2010
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143
Why would Nenshi resign? He's already seen the writing on the wall and backed out of running for re-election, he'll just coast to the end of his term now.
 

muddywaters

GO FLAMES GO
Jul 12, 2006
693
147
Cedarbrae
I hope the city up gives more to this project ... knock the country's and world's socks off with this project .... our city needs to go for the gusto on this one ... we are down but not out .... transform our downtown with more signature and iconic architecture that carries our brand like the Saddledome Stampede and Rocky mountains do .... think big brothers and sisters ....
 

samiam

Registered User
Oct 4, 2010
662
200
I hope the city up gives more to this project ... knock the country's and world's socks off with this project .... our city needs to go for the gusto on this one ... we are down but not out .... transform our downtown with more signature and iconic architecture that carries our brand like the Saddledome Stampede and Rocky mountains do .... think big brothers and sisters ....

Those are some really good ideas, but I think the debate is about who will actually be paying for all of these grandiose ideas.
 

blueandgoldguy

Registered User
Oct 8, 2010
5,230
2,441
Greg's River Heights
Edmonton's arena only cost $480 million so there is no reason to believe Calgary wouldn't have been able to build a great arena for $550 million if they had actually started construction by this point...and we hadn't seen a significant increase in steel prices recently (linked to Covid?). The additional $124 million for Edmonton's arena project (total $604 million) breaks down as follows:

$56.5 million for the Winter Garden
$25 million for the land
$43 million for the pedestrian corridor, LRT and community rink

To the best of my knowledge, there will be no pedway, Winter Garden-type area, or community rink involved with Calgary's new arena. I'm not sure if the Flames $550 million arena proposal included acquisition of land or if the land was given at no cost...or if there is any additional costs associated with rapid transit that are included in the arena cost.

Anyways, a $70 million increase vs. Edmonton's new arena seemed reasonable until the recent surge in material costs.
 

Mightygoose

Registered User
Nov 5, 2012
5,586
1,382
Ajax, ON
Edmonton's arena only cost $480 million so there is no reason to believe Calgary wouldn't have been able to build a great arena for $550 million if they had actually started construction by this point...and we hadn't seen a significant increase in steel prices recently (linked to Covid?). The additional $124 million for Edmonton's arena project (total $604 million) breaks down as follows:

$56.5 million for the Winter Garden
$25 million for the land
$43 million for the pedestrian corridor, LRT and community rink

To the best of my knowledge, there will be no pedway, Winter Garden-type area, or community rink involved with Calgary's new arena. I'm not sure if the Flames $550 million arena proposal included acquisition of land or if the land was given at no cost...or if there is any additional costs associated with rapid transit that are included in the arena cost.

Anyways, a $70 million increase vs. Edmonton's new arena seemed reasonable until the recent surge in material costs.

The land was acquired in a land swap between the city and the Stampede Board. Not sure what the value of the parcels so do they even out? Hard to say.

On the surface it looks like the increased cost of building materials have increased due to Covid and with ground breaking scheduled for early August, they're in the midst of locking in the contracts and the contingency has been blown away.

Is the increase 'only' 70 million? My understanding there's 50/50 split in overtime but it's not set in stone....hence the pause.
 
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