Unsigned picks due to re-enter draft?

[DARKSIDE]

Teams' rights to those players will be protected somehow when the new CBA is signed. Easy enough to have a clause added to give teams another year to sign those players. Whether these guys are UFAs or not isn't something that the NHLPA will really care too much about, and it's something a few owners (Ed Snider) will care a lot about, so they'll be protected with their current organizations some way or other.

I'd be absolutely shocked if they were allowed to become UFAs.

Agree totally...NHLPA could use it a bargining chip and might, but that's about it.

 

[Master Shake*]

And what is the basis of your guarantee may I ask? What unmistakable proof do you have? Flyers might not own their rights.
However, with Carter and Richards playing for the Phantoms and both saying they want to play the Flyers, I don't think that they want to re-enter the draft when they are going to be with a good team.

Basically, why would they want to do all this when they are with a great team already. Look at what they are accomplishing together in the AHL: Guys like Carter, Richards, Sharp, Umberger, Pitkanen, Seidenberg and Niitymaki are taking their team to the East Finals and possibly to the Calder Finals. Why would they leave knowing how well they play together and knowing what other players they could be playing with? It's guys like Primeau, Roenick, Gagne, Johnsson, Markov and others. You have a coach who has won a Cup already and had this team 1 game away from competing for another one in the 2nd year he has been coaching the Flyers. Who the hell wants to leave that? Trust me, all of this is pointless conjecture from people who really want these kids to play for their teams and are just ignoring the fact that none of this will ever happen.

Let me ask you this.....
And what is the basis of your guarantee may I ask? What unmistakable proof do you have?

I have mine but cant claim unsubstantiated claims on these forums apparently..
Nothing is written in stone or paper either way. Their future is not determined. Ill guess that there will be a small period up to the draft to sign. I dont think they will have infinite hold on their rights.

Incentive? Remains to be seen as we have no idea what the future cba will hold for these particular players.

 

[DARKSIDE]

My whole point is why would a guy like Carter want to sign for less than what Getzlaf or stewart or Dion signed for. under the CBA the NHL wants to lower the entry level salary. Why would Carter or Richards etc. want to sign for lets say $ 800,000, while guys like Getzlaf and Stewart make more money. Why does a team like Calgary get punished for paying Dion more than what the Flyers will pay Richards or Carter. If I'm one of Carter Richards or Fehr I would try to make sure I get the most money I can get. Even if I have to go to the courts and win my UFA rights. So I think it will all depend on whats the maximum Entry level Salary.

But even if they sue, they won't be able to make more then the minimum, no matter were they play. Now, if you say they are extremely pissed at Clark because he didn't sign them earlier, I guess that could be a possibility, but that's not what I'm hearing from these two kids. As for others, I'm not aware of there situations. And as a poster already wrote, (No disrespect intended) why go to Columbus or Carolina when you can be a Flyer that has a cup contending team and plays to sellouts. Hey, I'm a Devils fan and if I was in there position, I'd stay right where I am.

 

[Liquidrage*]

LMFAO! Knowing Liquid from another board, this has to be the most obviously edited post ever. He sounds gayer than a catholic boy scout. Awesome job by the moderators.
Anyone want to guess what it originally said instead of the smileys?

No, I have to self censor here. Otherwise, I have to hope the mods that like me get to my posts and edit them before the mods that don't like me see it and warn me again or ban me or kill my wife or whatever it was they've threatened to do in the past.

 

[Old Hickory]

Like it or not, its nothing more then speculation going either way.

But it's still speculation. None of us knows what is going to happen and our posts are merely guesses based on on our interpretation of the future CBA

 

[Master Shake*]

But it's still speculation. None of us knows what is going to happen and our posts are merely guesses based on on our interpretation of the future CBA

Thats all well and good. But what I see is people accusing me of speculation for saying they might be going back in draft and then in return speculating. Dont be the pot calling the kettle black.

To the other guy above, the incentive might be a contract not bound by entry draft level rules. Might be like a free agent from Europe where the money could be higher then a capped figure. This is why if I am the agent, Im suing for free agency. Then I have my guy sign for a couple mill in Toronto or whever he wants to play.

 

[NYR469]

Actually there is something to sue over. I am surprised some people here do not see it. He has to be signed by a certain date over 2 year period. The Flyers KNEW that and that the old cba was expiring and that any future action after the cba expired would be an uncertainity. Thats what I would argue as a player agent. But Im not a lawyer so I dont know if thats possible. But Bobby Seay had a similar law suit claim I think and won.

I tend to think he will sue to be a UFA. If I am his agent, thats what I am looking for.

Im gonna nose around and see if I can get any answers one way or the other.

but carter and richards wouldn't become UFAs under the old rules, under the old rules they would re-enter the draft. so they wouldn't become UFAs

and what exactly do they gain by leaving philly to be re-drafted by a really bad small market team?? other then a guaranteed spot because the team is so much weaker.

imo really the only thing for them to sue over is the idea that as 2003 draft picks the old rookie cap that applied to 2003 draft picks under the old cba should still apply and the new rookie cap goes into effect starting with the 2005 draft because winning that arguement would get them more $$/year.

 

[Old Hickory]

LMFAO! Knowing Liquid from another board, this has to be the most obviously edited post ever. He sounds gayer than a catholic boy scout. Awesome job by the moderators.
Anyone want to guess what it originally said instead of the smileys?

The post you're talking about hasn't been edited by a mod.

 

[adurn]

Then I have my guy sign for a couple mill in Toronto or whever he wants to play.

I should have known.

 

[Master Shake*]

but carter and richards wouldn't become UFAs under the old rules, under the old rules they would re-enter the draft. so they wouldn't become UFAs

and what exactly do they gain by leaving philly to be re-drafted by a really bad small market team?? other then a guaranteed spot because the team is so much weaker.

imo really the only thing for them to sue over is the idea that as 2003 draft picks the old rookie cap that applied to 2003 draft picks under the old cba should still apply and the new rookie cap goes into effect starting with the 2005 draft because winning that arguement would get them more $$/year.

What I am talking about is, if the draft is held and they arent re-entered by the league and are still unsigned. I think they could have the basis to sue for free agency. Do you see what I mean now?

As far as if a small extention is granted, then yes they might very well have a chance to make more money signing with the teams that drafted them in 03. But Ill bet the agents will look into free agency. They wouldnt be doing their jobs if they didnt.

 

[me2]

Ill bet the players might sue for free agency or the right to re-entre the draft whenever that may be.

I think they could get a judge to agree and allow them free agency.

And then the new CBA will probably just take it away again. *POOOFFF*

 

[me2]

My whole point is why would a guy like Carter want to sign for less than what Getzlaf or stewart or Dion signed for. under the CBA the NHL wants to lower the entry level salary. Why would Carter or Richards etc. want to sign for lets say $ 800,000, while guys like Getzlaf and Stewart make more money. Why does a team like Calgary get punished for paying Dion more than what the Flyers will pay Richards or Carter. If I'm one of Carter Richards or Fehr I would try to make sure I get the most money I can get. Even if I have to go to the courts and win my UFA rights. So I think it will all depend on whats the maximum Entry level Salary.

What is the point?

1. Demand to go back into the draft, get redrafted by a poor team, get paid rookie max.

2. Demand to be made a UFA, get a rep as a trouble maker, get made a UFA, get paid rookie max.

2b. Demand to be made a UFA, get a rep as a trouble maker, go to court and get made a UFA, then get unmade a UFA by the new CBA, get rookie max.

3. Stick with a rich powerhouse Philly team (good now), that also has other great prospects (good future), get paid rookie max.


How is he going to get around the rookie max from the next CBA?

 

[me2]

What I am talking about is, if the draft is held and they arent re-entered by the league and are still unsigned. I think they could have the basis to sue for free agency. Do you see what I mean now?

If there is a draft then they should be free to reenter, since if there is a CBA then Philly would be free to sign them before they reenter. I can see no reason why the league would try and stop them from reentering.

 

[Master Shake*]

If there is a draft then they should be free to reenter, since if there is a CBA then Philly would be free to sign them before they reenter. I can see no reason why the league would try and stop them from reentering.

This is the likely scenario.
I answered your other questions through out the thread.

 

[alecfromtherock]

Because they had a whole year to sign the player to start with under the old cba before it even expired. They failed to reach an agreement. They should have known better and that was the risk they took.

I can honestly see an agent arguing this.
Crosbys agent is already grandstanding the idea of something similar.

The NHLPA should be focussed on a new CBA and their current members, not unsigned prospects that will be replacing some of their current membership once the season starts.

A rookie salary cap leaves more of the revenue pie to the current NHLers and it would be in their own self-interest to see as many restrictions as possible on unsigned/draftees.

$35M cap –$850K R X 3 players / 20 = $1.6M average for current NHLers = only 200K less then 03-04 average player salary.

If prospects such as Carter and Richards want to play with the team that initially drafted them why would the owners or the NHLPA want to face a unnecessary lawsuit?

Crosby’s agent is an ass and would see a team that drafted Crosby go bankrupt as long as he made his commission off Crosby’s multi-million contract.

If any prospect is not happy with 850K(US$–> near 200 times Crosby’s $100/week current CHL salary if we used Canadian dollars $850 X 1.2) for 4 years then all they care about is the $$$ and will turn away many fans.

Crosby already has a multi-year multi-million dollar contract with RBK, Brission just shut the **** up and wait for year 5 when the salary restrictions will not be in effect.

Crosby is not in the same classification as a unsigned player as he has not gone through a draft.

Agents, players and owners are the main reason hockey is a mare shadow of its former self.

Agents + players + owners = GREED, also = deadly dull on-ice product.

If the owners and PA give the CC(competition committee) binding power over game changes then all they would have to worry about is the fiscal aspect of the game.

 

[jb**]

Ill bet the players might sue for free agency or the right to re-entre the draft whenever that may be.

See your looking at this from the wrong angle, its not the players faults that the CBA expired. They are then having their rights changed while they stay the same for everyone else. Thats punishing the players. If Im one of those guys, like say Carter, if I am not allowed to re-enter or to be a free agent, Im filing a law suit against the NHL. Im arguing that its not my fault the Flyers didnt sign me. Since they knew that the CBA was expiring and they had over a year to sign.

I think they could get a judge to agree and allow them free agency.

Why should the players be punished by this special exception some of you suggest? Thats adding another year on to the players chances to re-enter if unable to reach an agreement.

Since the lockout started in Sept 04 teams couldn't sign players, if say the lockout last until July that would be 11 months. The teams would then have the time missed during the lockout to sign those players, if not they could have a supplemental draft or be a free agent. Just a thought on my part on how it could shake out.

However the previous post saying it is very easy to put a clause int he new CBA makes the most sense and very easily could be done.

 

[jb**]

One thing I can gurantee you is, the Flyers are not assured of even owning their rights this season. Thats all I can say at this point.

You have no basis to guarentee that statement. Pure opinion and speculation which is fine if please elaborate.

 

[dBoon]

Any agreement that allows mere draft picks the kind of bargaining power that allows them to become UFAs in the face of a major labor dispute will be a sure sign the NHL is hosed for good.

 

[MePutPuckInNet]

imo really the only thing for them to sue over is the idea that as 2003 draft picks the old rookie cap that applied to 2003 draft picks under the old cba should still apply and the new rookie cap goes into effect starting with the 2005 draft because winning that arguement would get them more $$/year.

It's my opinion that this is likely to be the only legal argument that the '03 & '04 draftees might be able to win.

I don't know the legalities...but, looking at the situation: a player signs away his rights upon being drafted under one CBA and then gets a whole new set of rules in a new CBA?? While still being forced to be bound by his draft agreement regarding his property rights under the old CBA??? Something about that really smells...It doesn't seem right. Legally, Ethically. Morally.

It's like changing the rules in the middle of a game. Even a four year old understands that it just isn't right.

 

[Master Shake*]

Allow me to be the first to say...I told you so.

http://www.tsn.ca/columnists/bob_mckenzie.asp?id=126577

 

[John Flyers Fan]

My whole point is why would a guy like Carter want to sign for less than what Getzlaf or stewart or Dion signed for. under the CBA the NHL wants to lower the entry level salary. Why would Carter or Richards etc. want to sign for lets say $ 800,000, while guys like Getzlaf and Stewart make more money. Why does a team like Calgary get punished for paying Dion more than what the Flyers will pay Richards or Carter. If I'm one of Carter Richards or Fehr I would try to make sure I get the most money I can get. Even if I have to go to the courts and win my UFA rights. So I think it will all depend on whats the maximum Entry level Salary.

The one thing that I think will happen is that unsigned players from the 2003 draft, will be grandfathered in. Teams will retain their rights, but the players will be able to sign under the old ELS rule, instead of the more restrictive ones that are certainly coming in this CBA.

That will be the compromise.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

Allow me to be the first to say...I told you so.

http://www.tsn.ca/columnists/bob_mckenzie.asp?id=126577

IMG doesn't have any of the top unsigned prospects, their lawsuit is more about getting ready to try and do the same thing with their big RFA clients (Thornton, etc.) on July, 1.

 

[Master Shake*]

The one thing that I think will happen is that unsigned players from the 2003 draft, will be grandfathered in. Teams will retain their rights, but the players will be able to sign under the old ELS rule, instead of the more restrictive ones that are certainly coming in this CBA.

That will be the compromise.

You hope. But there is a good chance they will end up suing and getting free agency.

 

[mercury]

There is NOT a good chance this will happen. Almost every source indicates that some type of exception will be made for these players. And I am sure most U.S. courts would agree that the lack of a CBA is an extraordinary circumstance.

 

[Barnaby]

I'd be shocked if this happened, but for arguments sake, where would Carter and Richards go? I would think Carter would have to be top 2-3. He's just more of a sure thing and has dominated in the AHL. The guy could be a 2nd line center whenever hockey starts up agai. Richards I wouldn't think would drop past 10 or 12. Thoughts?